How come I can ROFL stomp Ops/Scoundrels?

[DarkHelsing]

Scoundrels are the class I fear most even after patch 1.2.

 

Lemme see, can do face pounding damage.... check

heal themselves... check

combat/non combat stealth... check

 

No class that has the ability to go stealth should be able to heal themselves AT ALL, AND destroy you from it.

 

It must be a skill level thing, because the pub smugglers on our server absolutely tear people apart and are next to impossible to kill.

 

Interesting, I don't agree or see anything like what you are saying.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

I have a lvl 50 Assassin(Hybrid). I have a lvl 38 Operative(all points are currently in concealment). I prefer my operative. Yea I have some other toons like a PT BH, a Sorc, a shadow, a Sentinal, a sniper, and a Guradian but all are under 35 presently.

Pro tip:

If <insert whatever class spec here> is so powerful, go and roll one before you cry about it. If <insert whatever class spec here> is so weak, go find a decent one and ask how they do it.

Then you can come to the boards and propose changes for it, ask "how come", and offer suggestions.....intelligently.

 

Sadly, most will completely overlook what you said because your Operative isn't in the 50's bracket. I agree though, Scoundrel/ops are still extremely dangerous in the hands of a skilled player. As for your "pro tip", you do realize your audience on the forums never really does things intelligently. It would make too much sense to do that, instead most like to experience something once, and then generalize it to everything. It goes something like this: "I got jumped by a Scoundrel and killed, that class is now OP in my book. " or now the reverse is happening, "I killed a Scoundrel before he could kill me, now they are worthless." They never take the time to look at other things or try playing that class.

 

Here is how Pvp works for any class and in any WZ...

 

Team Work>Player Skill>Group Composition> Class balance

 

Most players don't seem to understand this, and don't look at whats going on around them. They just see whats going on in front of them and who they are attacking.

[DarkHelsing]

I didn't feel like the class was balanced prior to 1.2 as it was too powerful too fast. I disagree with the intent of Hidden Strike, I don't like the knock down talent, and the class can be crippled in a hurry with a knockback. Now that the DPS has been kind of balanced (there is a lot that still needs to be done to keep it on the same level of other classes), being able to sustain DPS is the biggest priority.

 

Prior to my Op, I ran up a v56 Pyro Merc. I feel very much in the same boat with my Op in that my only defenses are a Shield (absorbs too little on too long of a cool down), a KB, a stun/mez, a ghetto HOT, and heavy armor. Comparing that to my Op, I have the same crappy shield, no KB, a 4m stun vs 30m stun, a 10m 3 target instant mez vs a 30m single target 1.5s castable maz, a ghetto HOT (ONLY if I'm Conc), melee/ranged immunity for 3s, a stealth reset, and medium armor. To add to that, all of my attacks are 4m vs 30m so kiting isn't really an option unless I spam Sever Tendon. Different classes are different, yes. But I'm comparing uptime and survivability and if you set the HPs to being the exact same and used yourself as a target dummy, the Op dies the fastest. So, if my DPS and health should theoretically be the same as my Merc, but I take more damage, am I supposed to be balanced out PURELY by stealth and 3s of immunity against damage done by the fewest ACs in the game?

 

There is a lot of weighting done by BW so as to balance classes. It just feels adversly unfair on the part of the DPS Scrapper/Op. Especially when some of the tools that we have aren't what we want nor are they wanted by teh community.

One thing to note about Ops/Scoundrels is that I'm certain BW is struggling to prevent a situation where the non-dps spec becomes a freight train. A lot of people already complain that healer Ops/Scoundrels are gods. If you pump up survivability, then you make them even more godly. If you pump up burst, we're back to pre-1.15. So, there needs to be a balance to sustainable DPS that make the class less fragile by killing faster.

 

I'm trying to get a good feel for this, so forgive all the questions.

 

If the Operative class can burn through a target really quick but are all but rendered useless with a simple knockback, and every other class has a knock back... isn't that the balance?

 

If a Scoundrel cannot survive unless they kill the target they are on faster than the target kills them... isn't that the balance?

 

The Scoundrel to me was the class that made other players make sure they never broke off from the path. Any Operative I saw burst out on someone in a group of people was melted down almost instantly... isn't that the balance?

 

Again, sorry for all the questions, I just feel bad for any class I can emote to death.

[DarkHelsing]

Sadly, most will completely overlook what you said because your Operative isn't in the 50's bracket. I agree though, Scoundrel/ops are still extremely dangerous in the hands of a skilled player. As for your "pro tip", you do realize your audience on the forums never really does things intelligently. It would make too much sense to do that, instead most like to experience something once, and then generalize it to everything. It goes something like this: "I got jumped by a Scoundrel and killed, that class is now OP in my book. " or now the reverse is happening, "I killed a Scoundrel before he could kill me, now they are worthless." They never take the time to look at other things or try playing that class.

 

Here is how Pvp works for any class and in any WZ...

 

Team Work>Player Skill>Group Composition> Class balance

 

Most players don't seem to understand this, and don't look at whats going on around them. They just see whats going on in front of them and who they are attacking.

 

I disagree.

 

Team Work>Gear

 

That's all I really see. Unless everyone has equal gear, then I agree with your equation.

[DarkHelsing]

Fixed that for ya brother.

I can say the same thing for almost any class if there are 3 of them working together. That's why teamwork trumps all?

 

Agreed. lol

[Stryges]

This.

 

An Operative/Scoundrel can still destroy an opponent easily. Those that are complaining that they were nerfed too hard just don't have a clue how to play them.

 

Ya, you mean the rest of that less than 3% of the overall population?

 

No problems here. Move along.

[DarkHelsing]

Ya, you mean the rest of that less than 3% of the overall population?

 

No problems here. Move along.

 

It would be constructive if you offered why you feel this way.

[Coldin]

Sadly, most will completely overlook what you said because your Operative isn't in the 50's bracket. I agree though, Scoundrel/ops are still extremely dangerous in the hands of a skilled player. As for your "pro tip", you do realize your audience on the forums never really does things intelligently. It would make too much sense to do that, instead most like to experience something once, and then generalize it to everything. It goes something like this: "I got jumped by a Scoundrel and killed, that class is now OP in my book. " or now the reverse is happening, "I killed a Scoundrel before he could kill me, now they are worthless." They never take the time to look at other things or try playing that class.

 

Here is how Pvp works for any class and in any WZ...

 

Team Work>Player Skill>Group Composition> Class balance

 

Most players don't seem to understand this, and don't look at whats going on around them. They just see whats going on in front of them and who they are attacking.

 

I will overlook his opinion on Operatives because he isn't playing at the level 50 bracket. Things change a lot once classes begin picking up their battlemaster gear and get set bonuses. And unfortunately, operative/scoundrels have the worst set bonuses.

 

I do a decent job winning warzones, because my guild and I work well as a team, and I know how to use my skills to help fulfill objectives. But I can never stop thinking..."Wouldn't I be better at this being a shadow/assassin?" Frankly, they get a lot of the same skills, get stealth and mezzes, and they're also a lot tougher and can dish out some great damage out of stealth.

[shadowfoxe]

depends on your class that you are doing this cause i feel the opposite

[FulkerS]

It is interesting..some people now say that operatives are weak now, some other post videos like this one:

 

 

 

Poster claims it is post 1.2.

 

Taking both opinions into consideration I guess that operatives are balanced now;)

 

No, he very clearly says pre 1.2

[manlysnowball]

The cost of abilities increased? No, in fact, Laceration was reduced in energy cost - that's all.

 

Hahaha if you think energy management post 1.2 is easier you're demented.

[hulkweazel]

I have a lvl 50 Assassin(Hybrid). I have a lvl 38 Operative(all points are currently in concealment). I prefer my operative. Yea I have some other toons like a PT BH, a Sorc, a shadow, a Sentinal, a sniper, and a Guradian but all are under 35 presently.

My Assassin is great, quite powerful and dangerous. But I feel like a nasty little witch on my Operative. I don't get what everyone is crying about when they QQ that their op/scoud is borked or garbage? I feel fine with how they play. There are times they are face-roll and times they get face-rolled. More times than not though....I'm wrecking whomever stands in front of me, especially 1v1. Yea, there are some skilled people out there and they smack my little operative around sometimes.....but by and large, I pwn on my operative. It's easily my favorite character thus far.

Ops/Scoundrels are "kind of" late bloomers. But even before I got Jarring Strike, I was consistently top 3 on my team in WZ's.

The ones the orig poster fought sound like they simply need more time to play their class and learn its strengths. I thought the Operative was weak too when I first started playing it(rolled one post nerfs since it was speculated as the weakest now). Then I learned how to play the class and found that it simply wasn't true about it being the weakest and unable to kill. I remember Back when my Assassin was considered the weakest in the game.....I didn't feel like the weakest then either. Then they nerfed us and people cried about the "already weakest class" getting an un-needed nerf when Sorcerers were considered out of control and they went untouched/got buffed? LOL @ everyone who thought such things.

Pro tip:

If <insert whatever class spec here> is so powerful, go and roll one before you cry about it. If <insert whatever class spec here> is so weak, go find a decent one and ask how they do it.

Then you can come to the boards and propose changes for it, ask "how come", and offer suggestions.....intelligently.

Pro tip: 10-49 warzones is not an accurate gauge for level 50 warzones.

 

From level 40-49, my Scoundrel was an absolute wrecking ball against opponents. I got top damage, top kills, and top medals nearly every game. Half those kills came by killing them in a single stunlock. When the average player has 12k hp, is undergeared and is missing half of their skills, yes, it is incredibly easy to burst just about anyone down. Especially when you consider, that at around level 40, Scoundrels get their full arsenal of abilities, you can easily see why it is skewed.

[DarkHelsing]

So this is what I am gathering from all this.....

 

 

Prior to Patch 1.2, Operatives were a well balanced class because they only had one thing they did well, and that one thing was the ability to destroy an enemy that got separated from the pack, or destroy an enemy 1v1 once every 2 minutes-ish. They got no knockbacks, no gap closers, no powerful ranged attacks, and poor ability to CC. Also this ability to destroy an opponent was easily mitigated by knockbacks, CCs, DoTs, and keeping the Scoundrel in combat; and the Operative was easily destroyed if pulled out of stealth early or caught in the middle of a group of people. All of which helped make this class pretty well balanced prior to Patch 1.2 as a whole.

 

However, that same one ability to destroy a single opponent in 1v1 also made the masses feel they were out of balance, and OP. Because 1v1 doesn't take into account their every 2 minute disadvantage - the class's ability to be easily mitigated by knockbacks, CC, and DoTs, wasn't enough in a 1v1 situation because they could vanish and pop their openers all over again within seconds, changing the outcome of the 1v1 to their favor and the other players death. So that meant the class was Over Powered because 1v1 doesn't care about 2 minute cooldowns. And players caught in a 1v1 with them, or caught with their pants down, don't want to take into account the bigger picture of everything that made the class balanced because they just got killed and getting killed is frustrating.

 

So Post Patch 1.2, they pulled the advantage Scoundrels had in 1v1 situations by removing their ability to use their 2 minute cooldown to their advantage by giving them longer cooldowns and worse energy resources. So now Operatives are still easily mitigated by all the same things that would ruin them before Patch 1.2, but now they also no longer have the advantage in a 1v1 that they had before, and that lack of 1v1 quickness means the class is now drawn out into longer fights which the class is not built for, rendering the class into a rather pathetic current state.

 

 

 

That's what I have gathered from everyone's opinions, posts, and responses.

Edited April 21, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Ich_Bin]

snip

Nice one, sir. You hit the nail on the head.

[Bocherel]

Darkhelsing summed it up

[Sathid]

So this is what I am gathering from all this.....

 

 

Prior to Patch 1.2, Operatives were a well balanced class because they only had one thing they did well, and that one thing was the ability to destroy an enemy that got separated from the pack, or destroy an enemy 1v1 once every 2 minutes-ish. They got no knockbacks, no gap closers, no powerful ranged attacks, and poor ability to CC. Also this ability to destroy an opponent was easily mitigated by knockbacks, CCs, DoTs, and keeping the Scoundrel in combat; and the Operative was easily destroyed if pulled out of stealth early or caught in the middle of a group of people. All of which helped make this class pretty well balanced prior to Patch 1.2 as a whole.

 

However, that same one ability to destroy a single opponent in 1v1 also made the masses feel they were out of balance, and OP. Because 1v1 doesn't take into account their every 2 minute disadvantage - the class's ability to be easily mitigated by knockbacks, CC, and DoTs, wasn't enough in a 1v1 situation because they could vanish and pop their openers all over again within seconds, changing the outcome of the 1v1 to their favor and the other players death. So that meant the class was Over Powered because 1v1 doesn't care about 2 minute cooldowns. And players caught in a 1v1 with them, or caught with their pants down, don't want to take into account the bigger picture of everything that made the class balanced because they just got killed and getting killed is frustrating.

 

So Post Patch 1.2, they pulled the advantage Scoundrels had in 1v1 situations by removing their ability to use their 2 minute cooldown to their advantage by giving them longer cooldowns and worse energy resources. So now Operatives are still easily mitigated by all the same things that would ruin them before Patch 1.2, but now they also no longer have the advantage in a 1v1 that they had before, and that lack of 1v1 quickness means the class is now drawn out into longer fights which the class is not built for, rendering the class into a rather pathetic current state.

 

 

 

That's what I have gathered from everyone's opinions, posts, and responses.

 

You hit the nail on the head.

[Escarrabutxaques]

Meh,, In concealment I still can destroy almost everyone in 1v1 (except maybe skilled marauders and merc healers with all cds). Too bad that pvp isnt about 1v1 ;/ In team enviroment, concealment now is even worse than before (to all the previous problems like being marked and constantly cc'ed/pulled by tanks/knocked back as soon as you open on someone they added a new one: energy consumption/regeneration. So even if you manage to burst someone down you are still stuck in combat with 0-10 energy and really bad regen now). So yeah, even if I do similar damage as in pre 1.2, maybe 5% less overall, playing concealment is certainly less fun now.

[TheEdgeOfMadness]

I call this alt propaganda.

 

I was thinking the same thing.

[DarkHelsing]

Meh,, In concealment I still can destroy almost everyone in 1v1 (except maybe skilled marauders and merc healers with all cds). Too bad that pvp isnt about 1v1 ;/ In team enviroment, concealment now is even worse than before (to all the previous problems like being marked and constantly cc'ed/pulled by tanks/knocked back as soon as you open on someone they added a new one: energy consumption/regeneration. So even if you manage to burst someone down you are still stuck in combat with 0-10 energy and really bad regen now). So yeah, even if I do similar damage as in pre 1.2, maybe 5% less overall, playing concealment is certainly less fun now.

 

For your first sentence there, are you talking all things being equal; equal gear, and just as good of a player as you? Because that's strictly what I am putting the baseline at. There are a LOT of players that don't know how to handle their class very well, and that variable has to be removed when talking about class balance.

 

Think of it this way... if you were equally good at a Marauder and an Operative, would Marauder you be able to defeat Operative you in a 1v1?

[DarkHelsing]

I was thinking the same thing.

 

Cool, thanks for the bump.

[Rompdomp]

"Same crappy implementation of stealth" = "wow rogue" = "AoC Assassin" = "squishy captain stabby from teh stelthz!"

 

Ops/Scoundrels even have a positional backstab equivalent ... two of them. It's a classic.

 

Assassin/Shadow stealth is actually a nice way to do it; stealth is there, but ... it's just "there"; there aren't any key class mechanics built around it (e.g. TA/UH, burst attack only available from stealth, etc). Don't feel like stealthing? Ok, so don't! Ditto mara/sent "stealth".

 

But ops/scoundrels? Tell me you haven't seen this exact crappy class structure before?

 

Nothing would tickle me more than to have HS/SF simply yanked from the game, and re-balancing done from there, otherwise all this crap never ends.

 

^this, any class who relies heavily on stealth openers is going to create nightmare balance issues. Whether it be pvp class balance or just balancing the class btwn pvp and pve. Get rid of hidden strike and re work their dps rotation, then you could up there pve dps and not have crazy high front end burst. I am not saying they have crazy high front end burst now, Im just saying that as they are designed now, in order to give them competitive dps with other classes they would have to have insane bust, which Bioware seems against.

[WickedImage]

Pro tip: 10-49 warzones is not an accurate gauge for level 50 warzones.

 

From level 40-49, my Scoundrel was an absolute wrecking ball against opponents. I got top damage, top kills, and top medals nearly every game. Half those kills came by killing them in a single stunlock. When the average player has 12k hp, is undergeared and is missing half of their skills, yes, it is incredibly easy to burst just about anyone down. Especially when you consider, that at around level 40, Scoundrels get their full arsenal of abilities, you can easily see why it is skewed.

Pro-tip: I have a lvl 50 thanks, I am well aware of the bracket.

Also, from lvl 10 through present my Operative has been a beast, it didn't start at lvl 40 for me. It will continue to be a beast post 49. I don't need a single stunlock to kill another player either. I have skill rotations to take care of that. If the "average player" is "undergeared and missing skills"? No kidding its an easy kill, Einstein. No one cares about easy kills. Most 'average players' are already easy kills, geared or not. I see nothing of relevance or even any sense made in your post. At 40-49 you are higher level than 2/3's of the potential participants. You dam well better be a wrecking ball in that bracket.

Good Scoundrels and Operatives are not getting roffle-stomped. Not in any bracket. There are a few skills they possess that help prevent that. Escape+Cloak Screen alone pretty much makes that impossible unless you simply choose not to take advantage of those skills. Then you have debilitate, flash bang, med packs, stim boost, kolto heals, shield probe......I mean my goodness, there is a **** ton to work with. How can you be repeatedly pwned?

I can see being focused down quickly, now and again. Teamwork, tactics, skill.....all pointed at your op/scoundrel....I can see that being a quick demise. But it doesn't happen all round long unless you are playing "lone ranger", have a sub-par team, or are simply not as a good of a player as you'd like to think you are.

How can you be roffle-stomped when the fight only begins when you say so? I've been shaking my head ever since the class nerf hit (the nerf was needed) and folks began to cry that they were useless. It simply isn't true.

Not to mention, the class is not the problem.....but expertise just might be....?

[Black_anto]

Pro-tip: I have a lvl 50 thanks, I am well aware of the bracket.

Also, from lvl 10 through present my Operative has been a beast, it didn't start at lvl 40 for me. It will continue to be a beast post 49. I don't need a single stunlock to kill another player either. I have skill rotations to take care of that.

 

lvl 10? what exactly was your "rotation" at lvl 10?

[WickedImage]

lvl 10? what exactly was your "rotation" at lvl 10?

It was pure own, that's what it was. Go look up the powers available at level ten. That was my rotation.....and it was beastly.

[Black_anto]

It was pure own, that's what it was. Go look up the powers available at level ten. That was my rotation.....and it was beastly.

 

lol you were probably the best ball carrier too?