Can Defense Hurt a Powertech's Ability to Hold Threat?

[Rischardo]

With the new tier of gear out, there are some interesting defensive stat choices to make. I'm pretty happy with the way my gear is currently, but I started thinking about how our defensive stats work together with our class mechanics. Currently, my unbuffed (no stim, no FB stacks) defensive stats are:

 

~16.2% defense

~51% shield chance

~42% absorption

 

Seeing how I had basically the 50/50 shield chance to absorption (with 4 stacks of FB up), I figured I could start trading a little absorption for shield and make it up as I got more gear. Since it was my first black hole comm piece, I looked at the stats hard and while I was doing this, a thought hit me:

 

 

Unlike the other two tank classes, one of our primary defensive stats can hurt us.

 

 

It doesn't hurt our survivability. Obviously, the best way to mitigate damage is to avoid it altogether. What it hurts is our ability to deal damage and generate aggro. Why? Because of how mitigation works in this game (well...all MMOs). The quick summary is that there are two rolls every time we are attacked. The first roll is against defense. The second tests your shield chance. If you successfully defend, you don't need the second roll. The problem is our aggro revolves around that second roll.

 

 

So extreme hypothetical (I realize that no tank class can hit these stats):

 

Defense: 80%

 

Shield: 50%

 

 

Out of 100 attacks, 80 would be avoided altogether. That leaves only 20 attacks that actually get through to our shield chance. On average, we would shield 10 times.

 

 

When we shield, we have a 50% chance to vent 8 heat and 50% chance to reset rocket punch. Because of the internal cooldown, we cap out at 10 vents/min and ~13 rocket punch resets/min. With these (ridiculous) numbers, we would vent 5 times and reset rocket punch 5 times, far from ideal for holding threat.

 

So the question is, at what point does defense start hurting our ability to hold threat? I'm no mathematician, but this is the formula I used to come up with my conclusion:

 

13 (max number of RP resets) = ((100 - D) x 50%) x 50%

Where D is defense chance and 50% is your typical raiding PT tank's shield chance. The second 50% is the chance to reset RP. Using that equation, it seems like defense won't affect our threat resets until about 48% defense chance.

 

So my question is for the mathematicians out there. I know that my numbers are based on averages and may be over simplified as a result. Am I correct that defense only starts hurting our threat at 48% or are there other factors (such as the internal cool down) that must be added to the equation?

 

If it is 48%, then I'm not worried since we'll never hit that number. It would be nice to know if the current optimal shield/absorption numbers factor in defense chance when determining a powertech's optimum stats.

[alifaraaz]

So SWTOR definitely uses the double roll system where Defense is considered first, and then shield? Because if so...that actually changes things a lot O.o

 

As for your actual question - I don't really feel like calculating it now, it's late, and who knows if I even could But this is interesting. Definitely need to find that balance between the defensive stats, with defense being the least priority. (Even though it gives higher survival per point).

[Dacce]

I actually thought that Shield Chance was capped at 40% + learnt skills (in skill trees - so if you have 6% 46% is your max)

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but if I am right, whatever you have over the 40%(46% talented) is useless and should so into other stats to improve your tankiness.

[Rischardo]

I've heard differently. I read that DR starts at 50% from rating (so it doesn't include talents, Ion gas, or the 5% from the shield itself towards that cap), but that seems a bit high to me. However, 40% from everything seems way too low seeing how there is a ton of it on our campaign gear.

 

If you go to any of the tank guides, they say that it uses the two roll system. It wouldn't make sense to roll against shield first if you were going to just dodge it anyways.

 

Honestly, it's just really frustrating and it feels like Powertechs got the shaft. Much of our resource management and one of our highest DPS abilities are tied to shields. Juggernauts have a similar mechanic for rage, but they build it for ANY damage taken I believe.

 

Take a look at the other tank trees. Their 2 percent defense skill is appropriately located in the tank tree. Ours is a third tier talent in a DPS tree. How does that make any sense? We might have a higher shield chance, but I heard that Powertech tanks take the most damage (AKA worst overall mitigation) and if we try to up our defense (which, btw, we start with the lowest defense chance and it takes more defense points to get to 1% than shield), we naturally will shield less.

[TheronFett]

Confirmed that TOR uses a 2 roll system. This should be common knowledge by now.

 

1st roll is MOB Accuracy vs. target's Defense. Critical hits can not be defended. This is where your Defense stat comes into play. 2nd roll (initiated if 1st roll is a hit) is to see if that attack is shielded, and by how much. This is where Shield/Absorb stats are used.

 

Powertechs are mitigation tanks. Defense does not stack well on our gear, so we will always take damage. Our Shield/Absorb is higher, so all of that incoming damage gets mitigated at a higher level. Juggernaut tanks on the other hand can stack Defense with their gear. They may avoid some attacks, but will take much more spike damage than us.

 

As such, Operative healers tend to do better with Powertech tanks because they specialize in HoT (heal over time) whereas a Sorc healer has more burst and is better suited for Juggy tanks...generally speaking.

[Rischardo]

Powertechs are mitigation tanks. Defense does not stack well on our gear, so we will always take damage. Our Shield/Absorb is higher, so all of that incoming damage gets mitigated at a higher level. Juggernaut tanks on the other hand can stack Defense with their gear. They may avoid some attacks, but will take much more spike damage than us.

.

 

You seem to have a pretty good idea of how our stats work. Thing is, if we really want to, we can get quite a bit of defense gear (eventually) by ripping out the mods/enhancements from the Black Hole chest piece (I think). Maybe you can answer the question of what defense % we should aim for in order to maximize survivability without sacrificing threat (from shield vents/RP resets).

[TheronFett]

Defense mods typically lower shield/absorb stats, keep that in mind. Since we now have combat logs, albeit really crappy ones, some better theorycrafting may be able to confirm some hard numbers. As mentioned earlier, we are mitigation tanks and Shield is our highest natural tanking stat (based on gear and abilities). Following closely behind is Absorb. I wouldn't deviate too far from what has been set in place already.

 

A high Defense stat means the attack may miss completely. That's great on some levels, but on the other hand, not shielding an attack also means no proc for Shield Vents or Flame Shield.

 

Max shield/absorb = 50%

Max defense= 30%

 

Meaning, once you reach the cap on Shield/Absorb, it's pointless to keep investing in them. I wouldn't sacrifice either of those until you are at or near the cap before worrying about Defense.

[OlosBC]

The max you can stack shield/absorb to is 50% from rating. Defense is 30% from rating. On all three though, you start to hit diminishing returns much earlier (which is actually a misnomer, it should be called equalized returns(wll for every stat other than surge and its now retarded curve), but that's another discussion.

 

We get 26% shield chance from stance, shield, and talents. We get 32% absorb from shield and talents, counting fb/hb stacks. We get like 11% defense from base, talents, and set bonus.

 

With my 300ish defense, 400ish shield and 300ish absorb (on phone so no exact numbers), im at like 16-17% defense, 49% shield and 59% absorb(with buff stacks). At this gear level, every spreadsheet ive used tells me absorb>defense>shield. However that doesnt factor in the experimental shield overcharger, which gives me a ton of absorb on proc, making shield and defense good as well. Interestingly though, even if i plug in the 400 absorb bonus, absorb is still attractive enough to not ignore.

 

So basically, right now, i just want more tank stats, because they are all insanely good. Get a ton of absorb and you'll see the same thing happen too.

 

Oh and there's no way, especially as a PT, to realistically get your defense high enough to noticably hurt your threat through fewer shield procs. And in case it wasnt apparent, always use shield/absorb trinket over defense as a PT, though the above would mostly hold true with defense one as well.

[thrusterburn]

With my 300ish defense, 400ish shield and 300ish absorb (on phone so no exact numbers), im at like 16-17% defense, 49% shield and 59% absorb(with buff stacks). At this gear level, every spreadsheet ive used tells me absorb>defense>shield. However that doesnt factor in the experimental shield overcharger, which gives me a ton of absorb on proc, making shield and defense good as well. Interestingly though, even if i plug in the 400 absorb bonus, absorb is still attractive enough to not ignore.

 

Can you tell me your Mod & Enhancement names on your gear? I am rakata'd out, but understand that I need to get more shield chance and absorption. Do you basically have 105% tech accuracy?

 

I am sitting at

20290 unbuffed HP

Damage Reduction: 52%

Defense Chance: 13.41%

Shield Chance: 40.27%

Shield Absorption: 36.49% (not attacking anything, no heat screen stacks)

[Rischardo]

Can you tell me your Mod & Enhancement names on your gear? I am rakata'd out, but understand that I need to get more shield chance and absorption. Do you basically have 105% tech accuracy?

 

I am sitting at

20290 unbuffed HP

Damage Reduction: 52%

Defense Chance: 13.41%

Shield Chance: 40.27%

Shield Absorption: 36.49% (not attacking anything, no heat screen stacks)

 

I'm curious as well. I have a little more shield chance and the same defense as you, but way lower absorption.

 

That all said, if the cap is tied to rating, is it really even possible to hit cap as of right now? When do DRs for shield/absorp ratings start and how bad is it?

[Rischardo]

ah, I found this link. Seems pretty helpful...dunno if it's still accurate as of 1.2 or if 1.2 even changed anything.

 

http://imgur.com/a/TU0Sn

Edited April 19, 2012 by Rischardo

[TheronFett]

http://imgur.com/a/TU0Sn

 

That's a good graphical representation, but there have been some issues proven to be incorrect with the formulas used to create it. The thread originated here. There is some awesome information contained there and answers all the questions and theorycrafting posted in this thread.

[Mc_Gregor]

Rakata has the crappiest enhancement setup humanly possible. Its been said countless of times on those forums that you are much better off by scrapping all accuracy enhancements in favour of shield/absorb (even for the low one from Illum dailly). The best enh out there is Steadfast enhancement, the best version is looted from operation bosses on higher difficulty. Also Vehemence implants/ears will greatly surpass everything else in terms of tanking stats. You will loose some endurance but its really worth it. Edited April 19, 2012 by Mc_Gregor

[OlosBC]

Rakata has the crappiest enhancement setup humanly possible. Its been said countless of times on those forums that you are much better off by scrapping all accuracy enhancements in favour of shield/absorb (even for the low one from Illum dailly). The best enh out there is Steadfast enhancement, the best version is looted from operation bosses on higher difficulty. Also Vehemence implants/ears will greatly surpass everything else in terms of tanking stats. You will loose some endurance but its really worth it.

 

Yup. Rakata enhancements have ALL been replaced on my gear.

 

2 vehemence implants and vehemence earpiece, all 3 augmented with absorb.

 

Im not sure of the name of the enhancements, but they drop in HM ev/kp, got some raiding and bought a couple as well. 24 end, 51 shield, 39 absorb in 5 slots, 6th is 40 end, 51 shield, 21 absorb.

 

For mods ive replaced all but one with11 abs over def. havent gotten any campaign or black hole gear yet, but excited for the high secondary stats they are finally giving to aim/cunning users.

 

I have like 120 accuracy rating, which is approximately 120 more than i give a **** about(on crafted implants/earpieces, and my offhand which is sadly still columi, weve had the *******st luckon bh weapons). Agro isnt an issue for me, aside from when our marauder blows his load with lucky crits at the start of the fight, but thats why i blow my load for threat at the start too. (crit boost-charge-punch-rail-hb/fb-tso/flamer-punch-explo dart-etcetera tillabout 60 heat and then vent and do it all again)

[OlosBC]

DR on all stats starts (except for power/primary/end, but those DR themselves by making your other statsbetter when you get a lot of them) the instant you have more than 1 point of that stat. It's not really noticeable at the start though.

 

Even at 60% absorb(heat screen active), absorb is still my best stat. It becomes my worst stat a third of the time when experimental shield trinket procs, but not by enough to make me hate it the rest of the time. Our healers comment pretty often that i'm easier to heal than our jugg tank, and even with almost no accuracy i have fewer threat problems than he does.

 

 

Bottom line: get more absorb.

[Rischardo]

Also Vehemence implants/ears will greatly surpass everything else in terms of tanking stats. You will loose some endurance but its really worth it.

 

Just for clarification, I think you mean Veracity right? Vehemence has power/alacrity on it...can't see the latter being too useful.

 

I definitely use the Veracity ear piece...much better in terms of stats. However, I feel that the Rakata implants are actually pretty good. It's kind of hard to stomach the endurance loss when the Rakata implant stats are decent.

[Mc_Gregor]

Yeah, youre right, its Veracity. It has more defence and shield than rakata and you can smack absorption implant on it. You will loose like.... 300hp but it doesnt really make a huge diffrence, having 21k hp with stim is all you need really.