Can tactics hold its own against assault now in pvp? General questions.

[TheOpf]

While a bit off topic on an AP Build, I feel Parsers/Spreadsheets DO mean very little in PvP. In PvE you have a scripted environment where you know what a boss will do, when he'll do it, and what will happen. Thus from that you can build an approriate rotation and maximize the dps in your build.

 

However, in a PvP environment two entirely different players, playing the same class, can play two entirely different ways where your rotation no longer works and you have to think on the fly. It's a simple concept of why Player A is > Player B. PvP Is more about reaction to the events around you and what the other player or players are doing than a set rotation.

 

Don't let me give the wrong impression, In games at time i'll spend hours at a time on a target dummy parsing and re-parsing over and over to get a consistent result. But again that's more so in PvE..

 

You are right and wrong. A parser while not completely accurate for pvp will help you without actually doing something to find out what attacks are pointless to use, what is the best heat management cycle in a short fight, and where my largest burst is so I can tie it together. I never said it was the way to play. Disregarding a parser or spreadsheet completely is just as bad as never testing out something live.

 

The Tibetan Candle or Plasma Cell AP build tested out as the highest possible dps in a static environment. However managing the heat on it is ardorous at best, and crazy tough to do while still pumping out the best possible dps. However, coming from the ease and fluidity of the Norse build (still my favorite) to the Tibetan Candle the damage difference once you get the correct heat management down is easily noticeable.

[vedranpauk]

has any of you tested Tactical Tools, it states it reduces PC CD for 3 sec i used stopwatch and CD was 15 sec with talent....

[Cryowolf]

has any of you tested Tactical Tools, it states it reduces PC CD for 3 sec i used stopwatch and CD was 15 sec with talent....

 

The cooldown is 18 sec untalented so yeah Tactical Tools is working.

[olemanbourbon]

There's a big difference in value between sustained total damage and burst damage. The latter is much more effective at killing targets. I can see how the former could be useful in coordinated premades, but in pugs sustained total damage won't accomplish much. The key is to be able to direct a large amount of spike damage at once at a single target before they can heal or be healed. That's how you kill people in PVP, in any game. A team that has every player at half health all the time is going to beat you because they are all still actively doing damage. For me, the assault build seems to be much better at actually killing players due to the burst damage being better than sustained damage. The damage #'s you see on the sheet at the end of the WZ tell very little--you could theoretically do 300k damage and not be responsible for a single kill if the damage is too spread out. The same is true even of the kill #s (a weak aoe will get you credit for someone else's spike-kill). Assault is tough to beat because no one can heal through the High Impact Bolt + Assault Plastique 6.5k burst that you often get in a split second. Edited April 30, 2012 by olemanbourbon

[TheOpf]

There's a big difference in value between sustained total damage and burst damage. The latter is much more effective at killing targets. I can see how the former could be useful in coordinated premades, but in pugs sustained total damage won't accomplish much. The key is to be able to direct a large amount of spike damage at once at a single target before they can heal or be healed. That's how you kill people in PVP, in any game. A team that has every player at half health all the time is going to beat you because they are all still actively doing damage. For me, the assault build seems to be much better at actually killing players due to the burst damage being better than sustained damage. The damage #'s you see on the sheet at the end of the WZ tell very little--you could theoretically do 300k damage and not be responsible for a single kill if the damage is too spread out. The same is true even of the kill #s (a weak aoe will get you credit for someone else's spike-kill). Assault is tough to beat because no one can heal through the High Impact Bolt + Assault Plastique 6.5k burst that you often get in a split second.

 

This is misinformation and a common misconception that has been proven numerous times to be incorrect. Tactics has just as much burst as Assault. They also have the same amount of sustained damage. The biggest differences if you play extensively with both are as follows:

 

Assault - More Mobile Burst, 5 percent higher top end damage/dps

Tactics - Better heat Management - Better damage reduction

 

Their 6 second burst is exactly the same: Assault Plastique - HiB - SS - HiB = same amount of damage as PG - SS - FP

 

It's the exact amount of damage output over the exact same period of time simply delivered differently.

[olemanbourbon]

Their 6 second burst is exactly the same: Assault Plastique - HiB - SS - HiB = same amount of damage as PG - SS - FP

 

It's the exact amount of damage output over the exact same period of time simply delivered differently,

 

6 Seconds is not a real burst. A split second is. AP + HIB happens at once (ideally). Can't be healed through. The Tactics chain happens over a duration of time, and can be healed through. I'm not saying it always will be-- if disrupts are applied on healers and there is team coordination.

 

It's the way the damage is delivered differently that can make a huge difference.

Edited April 30, 2012 by olemanbourbon

[TheOpf]

6 Seconds is not a real burst. A split second is. AP + HIB happens at once (ideally). Can't be healed through. The Tactics chain happens over a duration of time, and can be healed through. I'm not saying it always will be-- if disrupts are applied on healers and there is team coordination.

 

It doesn't happen at once unless you have perfect timing it happens over 3 seconds (the time for two GCD's to take place), and 6 seconds is 4 attacks which is the fastest burst out there. 2 attacks is not a burst as anyone can heal through 2 seconds of damage if the rest of your damage is weak. Also Assault Plastique/HiB is about the same damage as a Fire Pulse/HiB (crit) in the 2 attacks debate. PFT can hit upwards of 7-9k depending on target.

 

I am sorry, but your misconception of the Tactics tree is just not valid. You are talking about stuff that has been proven wrong many many times. They both take down the same guy at the same speed just differently. Assault relies on RNG, and Tactics relies on a channeled ability. Both have pluses and minuses.

[olemanbourbon]

 

I am sorry, but your misconception of the Tactics tree is just not valid.

 

It's ok.

 

I disagree that there's a 3 second gap between AP (trigger) and HIB

Edited April 30, 2012 by olemanbourbon

[TheOpf]

It's ok.

 

I disagree that there's a 3 second gap between AP (trigger) and HIB

 

No the total amount of time spent is 3 seconds. You seem to forget Global Cooldowns. They are 1.5 seconds. So your first attack is launched Assault Plastique than 1.5 seconds later you can cast HiB, 1.5 seconds later you can now use your next attack. Since Assault Plastique is on a time delay of 3 seconds (I believe) this means your total amount of damage done is over a period of 3 seconds from when you first used Assault Plastique to when the damage hits.

 

In the same amount of time from when you hit the button till it actually procs, a Tactics guy can pull off the same amount of damage. Does that make more sense?

[olemanbourbon]

Yes. But my point is that even though there is the 3 second period before the damage from the 2 skills (HIB and AP) is triggered, it is not obvious to other players, ie healers, that the target is about to get spiked. The damage comes all at once, and if a target is low on health, it is usally too late to heal it when the damage occurs. The only cues that the spike is coming are on the character bar, which is often littered with stims, buffs, etc; and the AP sound effect, which will not specify the target. Point being, the spike damage that you get from the assault line is very difficult to heal because unless it's detected before damage is triggered, which is difficult to do, the damage will be very sudden and large.

 

Simply put, AP + HIB effectively functions as ONE single strike. It is an extremely effective burst that you don't get with other Vanguard lines because a couple of seconds can make a big difference.

Edited April 30, 2012 by olemanbourbon

[Philosomanic]

I would say that Assault's ability to time-burst (high damage compressed over a short period of time) is superior. Assault Plastique -> HiB -> Stockstrike can do really high damage, but it's compressed into a period of less than 3s. HiB even has a little travel time, and stockstrike deals damage quickly.

 

If you take the same burst rotation as Tactics, Assault probably does the same amount of damage (or really similar). However, Assault has the ability to compress that damage into a lot of back-loaded burst. Tactics hits them with Gut, and then does pretty steady damage. Assault hits with two DoTs, then AP for delayed damage, and then the burst. So for the first part of a fight, Assault is doing less damage by applying AP and IR. However, there is that deadly burst phase when IR and PC are ticking away, AP goes off, and your burst skills (HiB/SS) go off all at once. Assault can load up more burst to trigger all at once.

[TheOpf]

You still are looking at the same damage over the same period of time done differently. No healer around can heal 2.2k every second for 4 seconds or see all 8k over the span of 1.5 seconds due to time delay. No one can heal either. The burst remains the same just delivered differently. When Tactics is critign it will wipe out 2-3 guys at one time, while Assault is a single target cannon. Besides what are you doing over that time while wating for your damage to all proc. And if you have the delay of HiB how can you then get the instant of SS?

 

Look, I have not once said that Assault isn't very powerful. It still has one of the strongest bursts in the game. However, it is a misconception to think Tactics can't do the same thing. We don't have a sharp spike but the damage over the same amount of GCD's remains the same. I have yet to meet a similarly geared Pyro/Assault who can drop someone faster than I can.

 

The only major difference is they can do their best burst while moving or kiting and I have to channel mine. That's it.

[Cryowolf]

...it is not obvious to other players, ie healers, that the target is about to get spiked.

 

This is not true, for decent players anyway. I certainly know when an AP just landed on me, not my buddy next to me. As if my being on fire wasn't a giveaway of what is to come.

[TheOpf]

This is not true, for decent players anyway. I certainly know when an AP just landed on me, not my buddy next to me. As if my being on fire wasn't a giveaway of what is to come.

 

Have you seen a bigger influx of AP and Tactics guys since patch? I have run into quite a few Tactics, but almost no AP guys in WZ's. It helps that Taugrim and I are on the same server ;p. His guild has like 2-3 Tactics guys. The day after 1.2 I saw about 4-5 in 3-4 WZ's, and then they were all back to Iron Fist or Pyro. I think the adjustment from one playstyle to another is too much.

 

Switching from the three PT trees is the most dramatic I believe out of any of the classes. I can't think of another class that uses three different playstyles for each tree.

[Chocodaddy]

OPF. your attempting to prove a point that the vast majority of the vanguard community has come to disagree with. while tatics burst may be the same as Assault, it takes substantially more time to set up then AS (5 globals) making it inferior in MOST but not all pvp situations. unless your walking around with 5 stacks of pulse generator at all times it just takes longer to "drop the hammer" so to speak. not to mention your bread and butter ability requires you to be stationary sacrificing vanguards most powerful pvp trait, its mobile burst. no one is arguing that tactics can pull the same numbers, people are arguing that you can not pull the same numbers as effectively. further more your serves population of tactics vanguards is irrelevant to this discussion, simply because it shows a matter of peoples own personal preference. the reason why you see a flood of tactics vanguards if people want to try the changes for themselves. and as you stated most return to there original specs.

[TheOpf]

OPF. your attempting to prove a point that the vast majority of the vanguard community has come to disagree with. while tatics burst may be the same as Assault, it takes substantially more time to set up then AS (5 globals) making it inferior in MOST but not all pvp situations. unless your walking around with 5 stacks of pulse generator at all times it just takes longer to "drop the hammer" so to speak. not to mention your bread and butter ability requires you to be stationary sacrificing vanguards most powerful pvp trait, its mobile burst. no one is arguing that tactics can pull the same numbers, people are arguing that you can not pull the same numbers as effectively. further more your serves population of tactics vanguards is irrelevant to this discussion, simply because it shows a matter of peoples own personal preference. the reason why you see a flood of tactics vanguards if people want to try the changes for themselves. and as you stated most return to there original specs.

 

You are failing to understand my argument. I never said it doesn't take longer to setup our burst. Heck, Every AP player dislikes the ramp time, but it's not gamebreaking in pvp or pve. In no way does AP face a significant disadvantage from Pyro. No one who has taken the time to play AP and learn it's abilities has come away saying. Stating that it's inferior. Some stay AP, and some go back to pyro. Pre-1.2 - Pyro was superior. Post 1.2 - they are competitive with only your playstyle determining your choice.

[Cryowolf]

Have you seen a bigger influx of AP and Tactics guys since patch?

 

There was an influx, but like you mention most returned to their original and I agree with you. The playstyle is just so different and I feel it's much more a team spec and will frustrate puggers. Assault players are used to all instant cast mayhem, which is good for them because mobility is really their only survivability. Also Assault players love the big crits (who doesn't right? ). Dropping a player from 75% to dead in a few seconds is powerful, removing 50% health from half the enemy team in that same few seconds is also powerful. My guildies are solid players so the opportunity my AoE presents doesn't go to waste that often, YMMV.

 

I saw a few new Tactics players the last couple nights that I chatted with and it seems the big issue that will keep them from staying Tactics is that our (Vanguard) 70% slow is still not working so I see them switching specs soon. I've seen a few more AP on the Imp side as well, but nothing dramatic. What I have noticed is that there are many more VG/PTs in general. Used to be there was 1-3 VG/PTs between both teams per match and now I am seeing 3-5.

[TheOpf]

There was an influx, but like you mention most returned to their original and I agree with you. The playstyle is just so different and I feel it's much more a team spec and will frustrate puggers. Assault players are used to all instant cast mayhem, which is good for them because mobility is really their only survivability. Also Assault players love the big crits (who doesn't right? ). Dropping a player from 75% to dead in a few seconds is powerful, removing 50% health from half the enemy team in that same few seconds is also powerful. My guildies are solid players so the opportunity my AoE presents doesn't go to waste that often, YMMV.

 

I saw a few new Tactics players the last couple nights that I chatted with and it seems the big issue that will keep them from staying Tactics is that our (Vanguard) 70% slow is still not working so I see them switching specs soon. I've seen a few more AP on the Imp side as well, but nothing dramatic. What I have noticed is that there are many more VG/PTs in general. Used to be there was 1-3 VG/PTs between both teams per match and now I am seeing 3-5.

 

There is a guild on my server with two Tactics VG's, and they setup PG better than any team I have ever seen. I even got caught in the double PG blast. I kicked myself for falling for something I used to do all the time. Does your Hamstring at least work?

 

I have seen more PT's in general. I think it's to offset the influx of Marauders since we handle them a little better than some of the other classes.

 

At least they finally fixed your Plasma Cell haha!

[Cryowolf]

Does your Hamstring at least work?

 

I am running the NORSE build. So no hamstring for me.

 

At least they finally fixed your Plasma Cell haha!

 

I was so sad when I saw they fixed that and not the PG slow. Frustrating.

[TheOpf]

I am running the NORSE build. So no hamstring for me.

 

Wow, so you must have to strafe like a madman then. I am always impressed with any Tactics guy who runs AP in PVP. I ran into one yesterday and the man never stopped moving. It was impressive.

 

 

 

I was so sad when I saw they fixed that and not the PG slow. Frustrating.

 

I think I am going to open a new ticket everyday until they either block me from tickets or make the change. It has gotten to the point, where everyone knows the issue and there is still no fix.

[exphryl]

I think I am going to open a new ticket everyday until they either block me from tickets or make the change. It has gotten to the point, where everyone knows the issue and there is still no fix.

 

We should start a pool. What gets fixed first. PG Slow (since 1.2), or Ion Damage (since beta).

[Arkanjil]

I'm a NORSE vanguard and all I know is that when I see a 4k fire pluse, 2.7k stick grenade, and 2.5k ion pulse go off in a few global cooldowns, I never feel under powered. Follow that up with a pulse cannon that can do 1900-2200 per tick for 4 ticks, it can be crazy dps for the enemy to withstand.

 

That is all

[Keypek]

Yeah, I'm staying assault spec until they fix the slow on PC. It's to situational already to have people just run out of it after the first tick. My overall damage would vary by several 100k some times with tactics. Where assault I am always near, if not at, the top in damage and kill blows. When they fix the slow I'll come back to it again and see if I can optimize it.

 

Must say though, there is nothing like putting assault plastique on someone and watching them literally blow up.

[Deeboe]

I'm a tactics V guard. BM geared and I love it. I played assault pre 1.2 and had a blast but the biggest problem

with the spec was the ability to stay mobile. Burst was great but is moot when u getting shut down from being kited and LOS'd constantly.

 

Tactics offers great mobility and the burst lined up right can be deadlier than that of our Assault brethren. When I am in spawn zone I am setting the PG buff up via Explosive Surge. That 50% dmg buff is applied to all our aoe abilities. So when I setup for my burst phase I do the following:

 

Pop buffs/adrenals

Toss sticky grenade on the target

Pop HoL so I don't get a drive by knock back

Aoe stun

Start my PC channel which by tick 2 sticky should be hitting

Then in tandem with my last PC tick...slam them with fiery pulse

 

So in a 3 second channel u should have dropped anywhere between 6-10k dmg on ur target. Not to mention u will be following that up with a stock strike and some good ol IP spamming.

 

Pvp is about staying mobile. God bless Hold the Line. Roots, snares, physics...all void for 8 seconds. And only a 30 second CD...this allows u to **** all over your victim. Hold the line is hands down the main reason I play tactics.

 

Now with all that said, I'm not hating on assault because I love big numbers and lvl'd 40-50 as that spec and it was a blast. I did many 50 WZ's as that spec and had a blast, but after tasting tactics no going back for this guy.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Deeboe

[AtomicDP]

I dabbled in this spec a bit before 1.2, in preparation, and I was underwhelmed by it. I ended up sticking to the good old assault spec, but I became disenchanted by the lack of mobility, and heavy use of ammo. Tactics is my dream come true, it is an AMAZING spec, and as the name implies, it is INCREDIBLY tactical. Hold the line is probably my favorite ability in the game, the resistance to movement prohibiting effects, including knockbacks, is almost overpowered when used properly. I really enjoy the sustained damage/burst available through tactics spec. It took some getting used to at first, but once you master specific ability priorities you can very easily set up burst and very rarely run out of ammo. I love this spec, and it elevated Vanguard to my favorite class. I can not play a Vanguard without this spec anymore, I hope they don't change it. The NORSE build that was posted is amazing, much better than the alternative in my opinion. Try it out guys, it's a really great spec in PVP once you learn how to use it.