Can tactics hold its own against assault now in pvp? General questions.

[Keypek]

Sorry if I missed an updated guide but looked and did not find one. Looking for current opinions on tactics and assault post 1.2. I did read the thread where the OP made combat logs for assault so I have an idea how that is working still. But looking for tactics opinions mostly. And this is for pvp.

 

Have been straight ironfist spec since I hit 50 and after 1.2 I am needing a serious change. I feel more squishy with the same sub standard dps and guarding people just gets me killed usually so I have come to the conclusion if I'm going to drop in seconds anyway I might as well be doing some damage in between.

 

Tactics sounds interesting but very dependent on the cone area effect from pulse cannon. That can be very situational and hard to achieve in pvp on a consistent basis. Fire pulse sounds lack luster and the rest of the tree is kinda meh. Just wondering if anyone has had a lot of experience (as much as one can have at least in a week) with this post 1.2 and can give ideas of how hard pulse cannon hits at its best. Also, if I went with it would probably do ion cell still anyway for what little survivability that gives since high energy cell still seems lackluster. I would think getting in some good ion pulses wouldn't be to hard in most WZs with some use of your pbaoe stun to set people up to begin with. Just wish the tree had another decent ability for dps in it.

[AydenBari]

Tactics is still a puzzle. The abilities seem to not flow with the talents, somethings feel bugged, but when I go into WZs, things die. I have noticed time to kill is very short, and with Tactics' kiting capabilities and higher movement speed, I have lived longer than some.

 

The only thing to do in this early stage is to respec and try it. I would recommend HEC though, or at least giving it a try. The ammo regen and speed increase doesn't sound exciting, but when you hug a wall for LOS purposes, you can wreck some folk majorly.

[Keypek]

Tactics is still a puzzle. The abilities seem to not flow with the talents,

 

Yeah, think that's a good way of putting how I feel about the tree when I look at it. Just seems kind of... weird. Not sure. But thanks for the response. I am going to give it a shot tonight and see how it works. Will just go heavy in it and use HEC to get the full effect of what it can do.

 

Going to try assault as well and see which one works better for me. Luckily I'm only half BM gear right now in combat tech so will only be mildly frustrating changing over to something like eliminator.

 

Mostly just curious to see if I notice any kind of difference with how fast I die. Because I can't imagine it being much worse.

[Taunque]

I spec that relies on the cooperation of your opponents to clump together and stand still every 12 seconds will never be viable in competitive pvp.

[Cryowolf]

I spec that relies on the cooperation of your opponents to clump together and stand still every 12 seconds will never be viable in competitive pvp.

 

Competitive teams clump. They don't have to clump every 12 seconds for the spec to be successful. If you were able to effectively use PC every 12 seconds...now that would be OP for sure. They just have to clump when it is important for the success of the match. Which does happen all the time, such as:

 

Civil War: The middle node at the beginning of the match. People clump here almost every match. They also regularly clump at the other nodes all during the match.

 

Voidstar: Clump heaven. Nuff said.

 

Novare Coast: Players clump in the node huts very often and there is only one way out of those huts.

 

Huttball: Ok not as much clumping unless they are sticking to their ball carrier. This WZ isn't about damage anyway. Hold the Line shines in this WZ so much that I don't miss not getting off a bunch of PCs.

 

Also, Guarded healers stick to their tanks. The tank take immense amounts of damage if you catch them both.

 

And it has a 10m range, use it. Your teammates can help gather your enemies up, as well.

[bglodt]

I spec that relies on the cooperation of your opponents to clump together and stand still every 12 seconds will never be viable in competitive pvp.

 

Yea.... PG is a great ability... And situationally very powerful, it's even pretty good 1v1 but tactics isn't just one ability. I pretty much stock strike for free 4/5 times and get auto crits on HiB about just as often. Additionally my ion pulse hits pretty darn hard as well. Not much can run from me and get away... Even when I run ion cell. Speaking of which you can still put out good damage even in ion cell... You lose some ammo regen and speed, but you get a good amount of survivability. Additionally, hold the line is amazing.

 

As far as me saying PG is even good single target... I only use it at 5 stacks... And by then either battle focus or one of my relics is up... And i consistently do 4-7k damage with it if it goes the duration.... On one target. How often does it go duration? 50%. 40% of the time I get 2-3 of the ticks off.,, still not bad damage. As soon as the 70% snare starts working it'll wreck. It is squishy in HeC. But no more so than assault... And with HtL and speed increase and snare on gut... It has better survivability than assault.

 

Don't get me wrong. I like assault spec. I like the ability to still do decent damage at range, and I like burst with in 10 meters. But don't write off tactics. If you liked iron fist... Go full tactics and run ion. Yes you'll miss charge, but you'll otherwise like it.

 

For the record, fire pulse is a good move... It's tech and elemental.... 10 m range... And adds a stack to PG.

 

Also people say gut is bad... And it is in general... EXCEPT in tactics builds. The dot procs free ss and autocrit hibs all the time! Seriously, every time I die and respawn.., before I exit, I get a proc. it's ridiculous.

 

Seriously... Full tactics with ion cell. Don't try it one game and quit. Give it three or four good pvp sessions, so you get used to it. You'll like it. I'll tell you going from IF to Assault is going to piss you off with all easily you die... You think it was bad in IF... You'll rage in assault. That said you'll prolly get a semi checking out all your pretty damage numbers and highe crits!

 

Try it... And then let us know what you think. Good luck! Hopefully one of the three trees will be good to you!

[aRtFuL]

If the pulse generator snare works, I can see it being very useful in pvp, especially huttball (you are talking about snaring a whole brunch of ppl in the cone effect for 90% of the movement speed, and since you can turn around during pulse cannon, u can effectively snare everyone around you for 90%).

 

However, from the tests so far, don't think the snare is working atm

[Jetflair]

I'd pass it. It was good in 1.1.

 

After patch Shield can have good dps without losing much of survivability. And assault has excellent burst. Tactics seem to be somewhere between those two without being better at either.

 

I seem to top with same gear Assaults damage with Shield..Propably because I am longer up using abilites.

 

Close contact is not actually a problem itself because more than half of the players are Jedi wielding swords.

They will sooner or later jump at you. Having ability to duel at close contact is an advantage.

[TheOpf]

Tactics is very good. You just have to understand the class is unlike Pyro. It has a few way out of balance talents. We did a 27 page discussion on the BH version of Tactics - AP. It produced an AP/Tactics Guide click on the link in my signature, and if you have any questions, you are more likely to find answers on the Tactics/AP tree in the BH line where there is more serious theory crafting and less backwards "it sucks" type of statements.

 

AP/Tactics is as good as Pyro/Assault with a few more bells and whistles and a very different concept. There are a few talents that are completely baffling, but take a look at the AP guide on my sig and let me know if you have any questions.

[Deehorsey]

The essential of tactics haven't changed.

 

Pulse cannon and hold the line are 90% of the reason to play this spec. If you can't find a way to make these abilities useful, its probably not the spec for you.

[Rogmar]

If DPS wasn't out of control this patch maybe. The spec is essentially melee range without a jump or stealth, so even if you are useful, you're usually going to die before being able to do anything. I tried it for a bit, was fun, but ended up going back to Assault.

[bglodt]

If DPS wasn't out of control this patch maybe. The spec is essentially melee range without a jump or stealth, so even if you are useful, you're usually going to die before being able to do anything. I tried it for a bit, was fun, but ended up going back to Assault.

 

Assault is pretty much melee range too for ss and ion to proc HiB. All vanguard trees require you to be at at least 10m to be most effective. But with tactics you can still run ion. Either way it's play style, but in the end all three trees are viable.

[Rogmar]

Assault is pretty much melee range too for ss and ion to proc HiB. All vanguard trees require you to be at at least 10m to be most effective. But with tactics you can still run ion. Either way it's play style, but in the end all three trees are viable.

 

You can burst most classes for over 1/3 their health at 30m, giving you the advantage as you get into 10m/melee range.

[Keypek]

Thanks all for the replies and suggestions. I'm trying out both tactics and assault throughout this week to get a feel for which I like better. Last night I tried tactics over 4 hours of WZ queueing. The results were very mixed and I did not like the variation in my min and max damage in them. Given I am noob at this spec, not super geared (mix of BM, champ, and recruit currently as I replace some of my supercommando stuff), and the difference in WZs is a factor. But these are my first impressions with the following spec.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMMRrfkdsZb.1

 

First, as I said variation. My min-max damage numbers for the night for total damage was 105k-390k. I was anywhere from middle of the pack to number 1 on the damage charts. Sadly the 390k one was the second WZ I did and was quickly in love with the spec but I mellowed out as the night went on.

 

I did drop like a hammer when focused but I did also in ironfist spec after 1.2 except now I was capable of putting out good focus damage on targets with IP, SS, and FP. Felt like I was actually contributing to killing someone.

 

I focused on using high energy cell most of the night as I figured I might as well go all the way if testing the spec. But most of the perks of it seemed underwhelming. The 15% speed boost was hardly noticeable. I compared myself to other people... such as when running out of the gates at the beginning of WZs... and I was never gaining distance on them. As far as I could tell I was running the same speed as everyone else. Not worth the points imo.

 

Ammo was awesome. I was never out of ammo and I tried to be. The auto regen every 6 seconds is worth it imo when HEC is active. That combined with the overall nature of the spec had me very rarely low on ammo. However, not sure it is worth even having HEC on at this point. Going to try out with Ion cell tonight and see if I notice a huge difference in ammo, survivability, and damage with the following spec. I really miss my 6 sec riot strike.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZRcrrobfkdsZb.1

 

Also, Hold the Line was great situationally. But I was still getting stunned and knocked back all the time which made no sense to me.

 

Pulse Cannon, the bread and butter. Was awesome when things aligned right. And I did have plenty of opportunities to use it. Unfortunately it is buggy as hell. Some times people won't even get hit by it directly in front of me. The 70% snare does not exist as far as I can tell. And when playing against smart people they'd just knock me back or stun me to stop it from ever happening. A very powerful yet very frustrating skill as one WZ you can completely own people with it and the next you never get to use it effectively. Tried doing combos of using my pbaoe stun or HTL and then pulse cannon and this helps some. But still far to easy to be stopped in the middle of your cast by people paying attention.

 

Overall I had fun with the spec. And I could see it being very dangerous with someone completely geared to perfection. And some WZs you are a one man wrecking crew. Then others you feel kinda ill equipped to do much of anything compared to other classes with more well rounded dps trees. So I haven't decided yet. Will try assault out tonight and then maybe switch back and forth for the next week and try different specs and ideas. But I could live with tactics if I had to.

[TheOpf]

If you aren't going to spec into HEC benefitial abilities it's better to use the tank Cylinder. However, tactics is a very strong spec if used correctly. You just have to revamp the way you think. I have stated a few times that you should check out the BH forums for the AP Guides which is the counterpart to the Tactics tree. Check out the AP guide in my sig for builds and rotation ideas simply replace the BH terminology with Vanguard Terminology and you will get a great idea as to how effective the spec works.

[Keypek]

If you aren't going to spec into HEC benefitial abilities it's better to use the tank Cylinder. However, tactics is a very strong spec if used correctly. You just have to revamp the way you think. I have stated a few times that you should check out the BH forums for the AP Guides which is the counterpart to the Tactics tree. Check out the AP guide in my sig for builds and rotation ideas simply replace the BH terminology with Vanguard Terminology and you will get a great idea as to how effective the spec works.

 

Yeah I read your thread before I did my first run last night. Thanks for it, it gave me a lot of good info. And I don't hate tactics, in fact I would probably love it a lot more if/when I get my gear sorted out and changed completely over from tanking.

 

But at the same time the bugs involved with it frustrate me. Pulse Cannon not hitting people right in front of me (this happens way more than it should) and it not having a snare at all even though it says it does. And I'm assuming the 50% damage buff is working but I wasn't as impressed with initial damage as I thought I'd be from it.

 

The speed buff doesn't seem to work most of the time. I can't really pin point it but I think it does kick in during combat some times but otherwise it doesn't work. I ran right next to a buddy last night in a straight line for 30 seconds and I never seperated from him.

 

HTL is sweet but I still get carbonized from BHs when using it. Maybe this is design or bug I don't know. Still get knocked back also.

 

I'm still going to play with it as I know being new at it I am screwing things up all the time with it. And I'm assuming bioware will fix the bugs sooner rather than later. The pulse cannon is very situational though. You play against a good team that knows what they are doing it is fairly easy to neutralize your big hitter.

 

Am curious though, does BH versions have any of these bugs? Do you guys still have no snare on whatever your mirror of PC is?

Edited April 18, 2012 by Keypek

[Philosomanic]

...Pulse Cannon not hitting people right in front of me (this happens way more than it should) ...

 

This may not necessarily be a bug. The description of Pulse Cannon says that it hits a cone. If you look at the shape of a cone, it's incredibly narrow directly in front of the origin. This means that they can be only a little to the side, and you'll miss them.

 

Let's say it's a 90-degree cone. If they're 8 meters in front of you and 3 meters to the right, you'll hit them. But if they're 2 meters in front of you and 3 meters to the right, they're outside the cone. So if you're using it on someone who is right in your face, expect to have issues actually hitting them. The best policy is to be about 5m away from the group, so you can hit them all.

[JumpOut]

I'm a far cry from an expert, but I am pretty sure that you shouldn't be getting knocked back with hold the line active. In fact, I think Oozo has a video demonstrating the use of hold the line to counter sorc knock backs. I don't think it's supposed to work against carbonize or other stuns.

 

Also, I played a hutball as tactics recently, and the speed increase was very noticeable to me especially when carrying the ball. Maybe you're suffering from bugs or glitches, or maybe my perception is flawed, this wouldn't be the first time I was wrong , but I didn't run into either of those problems while running a full tactics build.

 

Just for full disclosure, I eventually went back to a full shield build because I prefer the playstyle, but I have played tactics enough to be convinced that it is viable if that's the playstyle you prefer.

[Keypek]

I'm a far cry from an expert, but I am pretty sure that you shouldn't be getting knocked back with hold the line active. In fact, I think Oozo has a video demonstrating the use of hold the line to counter sorc knock backs. I don't think it's supposed to work against carbonize or other stuns.

 

Also, I played a hutball as tactics recently, and the speed increase was very noticeable to me especially when carrying the ball. Maybe you're suffering from bugs or glitches, or maybe my perception is flawed, this wouldn't be the first time I was wrong , but I didn't run into either of those problems while running a full tactics build.

 

Just for full disclosure, I eventually went back to a full shield build because I prefer the playstyle, but I have played tactics enough to be convinced that it is viable if that's the playstyle you prefer.

 

Hmm, well will run tactics again tonight. Test a few more things out and pay close attention to my speed and when it does or does not work. And I agree, it is a totally viable tree. It's a little weird and I don't think the whole tree synergy's well together. But viable none the less.

 

To the post two above, I had people straight on in front of me not getting hit last night. I know the cone area is limiting but I had people straight in front and probably 5m not getting hit. Now some times they were moving a lot or by a piece of geography. So maybe PC just has issues with latency or servers saying one thing and my eyes showing another so it doesn't hit people some times due to discrepancy there. I don't know, either way that creates an issue when it's supposed to be your big hitting talent your entire rotation revolves around.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Keypek

[TheOpf]

Hmm, well will run tactics again tonight. Test a few more things out and pay close attention to my speed and when it does or does not work. And I agree, it is a totally viable tree. It's a little weird and I don't think the whole tree synergy's well together. But viable none the less.

 

To the post two above, I had people straight on in front of me not getting hit last night. I know the cone area is limiting but I had people straight in front and probably 5m not getting hit. Now some times they were moving a lot or by a piece of geography. So maybe PC just has issues with latency or servers saying one thing and my eyes showing another so it doesn't hit people some times due to discrepancy there. I don't know, either way that creates an issue when it's supposed to be your big hitting talent your entire rotation revolves around.

 

It has to do with lag issues and server connections. Connections are not always clean so sometimes someone will not be in front of you that appears like they are. It won't always happen, but it does happen enough. The slow only happens at 5 stacks. So if you aren't getting to 5 stacks you won't get the slow.

 

There seems to be a UI bug currently where if you go to edit your ui it disables your Cell or Cylinder. Make sure it's on. I have noticed mine being turned off from time to time so now I check it often.

[Keypek]

It has to do with lag issues and server connections. Connections are not always clean so sometimes someone will not be in front of you that appears like they are. It won't always happen, but it does happen enough. The slow only happens at 5 stacks. So if you aren't getting to 5 stacks you won't get the slow.

 

There seems to be a UI bug currently where if you go to edit your ui it disables your Cell or Cylinder. Make sure it's on. I have noticed mine being turned off from time to time so now I check it often.

 

Yeah I know it's at 5 stacks. I take it this means the BH version of PC does have the snare? Because Vanguard most certainly does not.

 

Thanks for the UI editing tip. Was wondering what kept turning it off last night. I did catch myself with it down a few times. Started watching it carefully after that.

[exphryl]

Yeah I know it's at 5 stacks. I take it this means the BH version of PC does have the snare? Because Vanguard most certainly does not.

 

Thanks for the UI editing tip. Was wondering what kept turning it off last night. I did catch myself with it down a few times. Started watching it carefully after that.

 

Yeah, the BH snares works.

 

I do read a lot about the VG equivalent not. I wonder if it's a side effect of the fact your 5stacks buff your Mortar Volley and whatever your AOE Grenade is (left over from an old beta build) where as the BH version does not and works appropriately.

[TheOpf]

Yeah I know it's at 5 stacks. I take it this means the BH version of PC does have the snare? Because Vanguard most certainly does not.

 

Thanks for the UI editing tip. Was wondering what kept turning it off last night. I did catch myself with it down a few times. Started watching it carefully after that.

 

Yes, the BH slow is working correctly. It has been noted several times that there are oddities with the Vanguard tactics that are not prevalent in the BH AP. Speed boost not working all the time, slow not working at all, and the noted all of your aoe attacks are buffed by PG.

[Fafryd]

I've been playing tactics exclusively since 1.2. I normally run assault. I've also tried Iron Fist and full shield.

 

I find tactics mediocre. Much of this is lack of range. Ammo is great. Damage is mediocre although fire pulse is a lot better than I expected. Pulse cannon can be great in tight spaces like the Novarre bunker and obviously on the doors in Voidstar. HTL is too often countered by carbonise etc and resolve isn't very helpful.

 

What it is significantly weaker at than assault is 1v1 and ranged damage potential. It seems to have all the detriments of Shield and Iron Fist but no better survivability.

[Jetflair]

Thanks all for the replies and suggestions. I'm trying out both tactics and assault throughout this week to get a feel for which I like better. Last night I tried tactics over 4 hours of WZ queueing. The results were very mixed and I did not like the variation in my min and max damage in them. Given I am noob at this spec, not super geared (mix of BM, champ, and recruit currently as I replace some of my supercommando stuff), and the difference in WZs is a factor. But these are my first impressions with the following spec.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMMRrfkdsZb.1

 

I'd take Ion overload and Neural Overload.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hRMZrsrrobckdsZb.1

 

Slowing down effect is something that is good to have as Tactics itself has many effects that free it from movement impairing effects. Really handy in Voidstar and also in Hutball.

 

And don't underestimate the Ion Cell either. You get quite much bonuses to it from Blaster Augs and Ion Overload.

Its not fast way to kill but it much more effective than you think if you can keep steady stream of fire on targets with its dots Also Opponents will use knockbacks etc. so you want to keep steady stream of fire over 15 m too and when moving close to them.

 

And you want faster Riot strike. Because healers.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Jetflair
Forgot to add something