Remove the rakghoul plague now

[Skolops]

That second quote is you equating the plague with PVP.

 

Who is being dishonest here?

 

Erm, no. It's comparing it to PvP and it's contrasting it with PvP.

 

This is very basic, 5th grade English class stuff here...

[Dralanna]

Erm, no. It's comparing it to PvP and it's contrasting it with PvP.

 

This is very basic, 5th grade English class stuff here...

 

With all due respect, what you said certainly appeared to me to be equating it with PvP. You say you weren't so I accept that... but I hope you can't blame anyone for drawing the same conclusion that I did.

 

You are absolutely correct that no one can tell you what you should or should not enjoy, and I'm certainly not trying to. I'm not sure what your experience in MMOs is, but I can tell you that I've seen many times a, seemingly, vocal minority complain enough to have features in the game change. All too often these changes have proven destructive to the game and/or community. Based on the responses in this thread, I suspect I'm not alone in that. So, the natural reaction is fear that the developers will once again listen to these complaints. Hence, the huge debate. It's really not about you convincing me or me convincing you.... it's about making sure both sides are represented, just in case the developers are watching.

[RDeanOU]

Erm, no. It's comparing it to PvP and it's contrasting it with PvP.

 

This is very basic, 5th grade English class stuff here...

 

You are arguing that the plague is a violation of the PVE terms (or close to it) because the effects on your player that it allows are comparable to those of unwanted PVP.

 

Technically that is saying they are comparable rather than equitable, but that is arguing semantics. The point I was making is that you are comparing two things that are not alike. You knew that already though.

[RDeanOU]

I had a deal of respect for you, Skolops, because you haven't been claiming the people spreading the plague are griefing like some of the people in this thread have been doing.

 

You aren't arguing honestly here though. This is nothing like PVP and when you say it is and I call you on it then you try to weasel out of defending those statements it is really disappointing.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Here's an easy solution. Make the vaccine... free. Just, walk up to a kiosk/vendor/terminal and get your shot whenever you just don't want the herpesyphilaids. Ready to handle that part of the event? Click off the buff. Done.

 

Everyone knows the Republic and Empire does not have free healthcare.

 

Who do you think we are, Space Canada?

[Elhanan]

Well... for a safe zone on a PVE server... there is an opt out, the vaccine, sure it might be expensive for a low level character (if you are a 50 go do a couple of daily missions and you get enough dough to buy 10 of them), but at least in my server if you ask for one someone will hand it over free of charge.

 

The safe zone in a PVE server renders the "when I die the vaccine runs out" argument moot.... IMO.

 

And if you are "out there" leveling, the chances of encountering an infected player that happens to explode right beside you are really slim.

 

I was 10th with 6k; spent 2k on a single dose of serum because a Griefer had to select a Safe Zone on the Fleet to blow their nose. And since this just started at the time, I was unaware that one could exploit Death and make credits, or ask for free doses from anyone. In fact, today is the first time I have used the Chat funtion to speak with anyone.; let alone beg for freebies.

 

Events are fine; Griefing is not.

[AlyxDinas]

At the end of the day, the determinant factor in the discussion is this: the plague would be an issue if it offered any true mechanical disadvantage to players. It doesn't. It outright rewards those who catch it, recouping any "losses" for the player. The only true loss, potentially, is lost time. And this would be problematic if the player was further penalized in terms of mechanics (ie. a debuff that actually affect stats in an egregious manner, death from disease actually incurring repair costs). But they are not. Thus, complaints are fairly misguided.

 

This is to say nothing about the bizarre notions as to what rights and security a player's experience has in an ever changing setting full of other players. The most we've been offered is vague responses about morals and individual anecdotes which there's little reason to put an overwhelming stock in considering how many people have experiences nothing like these supposed scenarios.

Edited April 18, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Skolops]

You are arguing that the plague is a violation of the PVE terms (or close to it) because the effects on your player that it allows are comparable to those of unwanted PVP.

 

Technically that is saying they are comparable rather than equitable, but that is arguing semantics. The point I was making is that you are comparing two things that are not alike. You knew that already though.

 

Comparing and equating is not a matter of semantics; they're two entirely different things.

 

Example:

 

Tylenol and Advil are like one another. They have similar effects, but are entirely different things. One person may be allergic to Tylenol, but not Advil. One person may need to particularly distinctive effects of Advil for his condition and Tylenol will not suffice. Etc.

 

They are two completely different things, but they are similar.

 

Tylenol and Acetaminophen are equal. They're the same thing. There's no possible distinction and its completely fine to offer a person one when he was told by his doctor to take the other.

 

A loose and imperfect example, but one which hopefully gets the point across.

 

To bring it back to Swtor, I am simply trying to say that there are many similarities between a PvE and a PvP server, but what makes them distinct is a number of very particular differences. Both have many elements of player interaction which are the same, but there are certain kinds which are explicitly excluded from a PvE server. When some mechanic - in this case, the plague - begins to erode the differences in those particular areas where the two server types are different, it is problematic.

 

I contend that the main difference between the two servers can be summed up in that, on a PvE server, other players cannot generally directly impact you negatively without violating the terms of service - stealing spawns intentionally, etc. They may indirectly effect you negatively - as when they happen to spawn a boss before you get there, for example. On the other hand, on a PvP server, they can directly negatively effect you while keeping in line with the policies. They can't take it too far, but they can do it to some extent.

 

Now the rakghoul plague infection mechanic allows other players to directly negatively effect you - even unintentionally. It brings something which is otherwise intended to be excluded from a PvE server - this direct negative impact.

[Elhanan]

This is completely false. I play on a PVE server and there is no possible way I can avoid other players impacting my play. Participating in the economy guarantees others will impact my play. Even questing I have to deal with other players who might be after the same nodes or mobs that I am. It is totally unavoidable.

 

This is an MMO. You cannot avoid the fact that others will impact your playing experience. That's why it's on the box.

 

I use Med droids as sales reps; have not purchased anything from another Player yet. And while there are other Players in the field, one can simply waiy until they are finished as a rule. So it is possible to avoid such interaction.

 

Well, unless someone decides to choose otherwise for you.....

[RDeanOU]

Comparing and equating is not a matter of semantics; they're two entirely different things.

 

 

For the plague to violate the terms of a PVE server it would have to equate to being pvp. What you technically did was say that they might be equitable. You then claimed you said no such thing. Frankly, I just think you are being totally dishonest with the way you are arguing here.

Edited April 18, 2012 by RDeanOU

[RDeanOU]

I use Med droids as sales reps; have not purchased anything from another Player yet. And while there are other Players in the field, one can simply waiy until they are finished as a rule. So it is possible to avoid such interaction.

 

Well, unless someone decides to choose otherwise for you.....

 

Having to wait on other players means they are affecting your gaming experience.

[Darcstarr]

EDIT: What he said Edited April 18, 2012 by Darcstarr

[Skolops]

At the end of the day, the determinant factor in the discussion is this: the plague would be an issue if it offered any true mechanical disadvantage to players. It doesn't. It outright rewards those who catch it, recouping any "losses" for the player. The only true loss, potentially, is lost time. And this would be problematic if the player was further penalized in terms of mechanics (ie. a debuff that actually affect stats in an egregious manner, death from disease actually incurring repair costs). But they are not. Thus, complaints are fairly misguided.

 

This is to say nothing about the bizarre notions as to what rights and security a player's experience has in an ever changing setting full of other players. The most we've been offered is vague responses about morals and individual anecdotes which there's little reason to put an overwhelming stock in considering how many people have experiences nothing like these supposed scenarios.

 

I believe that the reason why you can't understand why some players have a problem with this is because it seems your particular play style is concerned with finding an enjoyable dynamic of rewards, resources, and meeting goals. This is fine. In fact, its largely the way I play. However, many other players do not play with this particular mindset. Some are more concerned with the role playing elements, while others are more concerned with some third thing. To them, the problem with the plague may have nothing to do with time or money, at least not in isolation, and the rewards may be irrelevant.

 

Perhaps a more universally accepted/understood example will help. I have a friend with whom I regularly play, and we have one particularly different area of our mindset when it comes to Swtor. I care how I look. I'll take a slightly - or even significantly, at times - statistically worse item over a better one if I really like the look that much more. I'll spend a lot of time and money obtaining the most aesthetically pleasing (to myself) equipment, or spend money to swap out mods just to get a better look. He is more concerned with stats and getting the job done, and he does not particularly care at all what he looks like. He will thus find the cheapest way to get the best statistics, often wearing completely silly looking outfits just because all of the pieces are BIS out of what he has come across.

 

It's two different ways of playing, two different mindsets. In the same way, some players may have things that drive their play which make the rakghoul plague in fact significantly inconvenient to them, when from the perspective of someone who plays differently it may seem completely insignificant.

[Elhanan]

Having to wait on other players means they are affecting your gaming experience.

 

I do not have to wait; I choose to do so. Also have the options of moving elsewhere, going for Resources nearby, etc. And if they send an Invite, I may accept or decline.

 

However, if they choose to target me in their explosion radius for Mission pts w/o asking; could be Griefing.

[Skolops]

For the plague to violate the terms of a PVE server it would have to equate to being pvp. What you technically did was say that they might be equitable. You then claimed you said no such thing. Frankly, I just think you are being totally dishonest with the way you are arguing here.

 

I said they might be similar and that they might come close to violating the PvE terms.

 

I think the key here that needs to be addressed is this: what exactly are the terms? In reality, I don't think BW has official ones. I have searched. If you can find them, by all means do; it would help the discussion. Not having anything official to go on, I tried to use reason to establish what seems to me to be the best definition of what distinguishes a PvP server from a PvE one, that is, that in PvP players are permitted to negatively impact your experience in a direct way, whereas in PvE they are permitted to negatively impact your experience only in an indirect way.

 

The rakghoul plague seems to fall into the former category - it directly impacts you negatively.

 

Note that intention and a lack of intention are different from the directness or indirectness of an effect. Someone can directly impact you intentionally or unintentionally, and they can also indirectly impact you intentionally or unintentionally.

[Rotny]

The amount of dumb in this thread is impressive. Recent events make me worry for the future of MMOs. Not even kidding. Game devs really need to stop listening to this forum dribble.

[SoonerJBD]

I have plenty of content to keep me entertained, and the bubble is relatively warm and toasty. Thanks!

 

But if people wish to smoke in a non-smoking area, then get testy when I complain about it to Mgt, that would seem to be on them. I can live with the stigma of being rigid in my stance; sure beats being a Griefer, IMO.

 

Except they are smoking in a smoking area. Bioware clearly expected the plague to spread to the fleet, which is why they put in the NPC containment soldiers. People are playing by the rules and as intended. You are the guy who sat in the smoking section and then complained when someone next to you lit up.

 

Oh and in this analogy, smoking doesn't cause cancer. It makes you crap money.

[Wobbyeta]

Few more days than its over, cant believe people complain about something so small. U wanted more stuff to do, U wanted events, BW gives event.. than lots of people get butthurt. U get no repair costs for dieing if u have the infection.

 

Next up is people complaining they didnt have enough time to get the mini-pets and color crystal.

 

If u dont want events, dont ask for it. BW has done a great job with this event, i say keep them comming. Next time let people that get infected lose control of there character, than they do have something to complain about...

[ConradLionhart]

Everyone knows the Republic and Empire does not have free healthcare.

 

Who do you think we are, Space Canada?

 

Now that you mention it, I don't see why they can't provide free healthcare. If you walk up to a doctor, they should cure your plague for free.

 

Vaccines are for cases where you need to be away from the fleet, doing dailies and stuff.

Edited April 18, 2012 by ConradLionhart

[DieAlteHexe]

Out of curiosity, why play a social game when all you do is play solo? I'm asking this honestly, and without ridicule. I really play MMOs for the social aspect, so I don't get why anyone would pay a monthly fee to play by themselves. I'm not saying that it's wrong, just that it is completely alien to me (I quit WoW after all my friends left. Didn't matter how good the game was if I didn't know anyone).

 

Why not? I enjoy the social aspects but, in many cases, I find an MMO to be better than SRPGs. To keep it short and avoid derailment; contents updates, active world, longevity, potential for years of play vs. weeks. Too, I don't necessarily need others to enjoy myself. It's nice to do content with like-minded folk but it's not the main point, to me, of playing an MMO.

[utio]

Not being funny, and I am all for people voicing their opinion, but whatever is said here isn't going to change anything. It's bioware's game, and they can do whatever they like. Whether or not some people are upset about it, they see how many people have enjoyed it, and will, no doubt, do something similar in the future. And that will possibly involve your character being directly affected.

You had better get used to events like this, because they're not going away. And if you can't get used to them, you need to consider if staying subbed is worth it.

[SoonerJBD]

Erm, no. It's comparing it to PvP and it's contrasting it with PvP.

 

This is very basic, 5th grade English class stuff here...

 

False. You equated it to PvP. You were comparing the effects of the plague to the effects of PvP. You got called out and then called someone a liar.

[Skolops]

False. You equated it to PvP. You were comparing the effects of the plague to the effects of PvP. You got called out and then called someone a liar.

 

You say false, and then you repeat precisely what I already said?

 

False. You equated it to PvP.

 

vs.

 

You were comparing the effects of the plague to the effects of PvP.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Skolops

[SoonerJBD]

I said they might be similar and that they might come close to violating the PvE terms.

 

I think the key here that needs to be addressed is this: what exactly are the terms? In reality, I don't think BW has official ones. I have searched. If you can find them, by all means do; it would help the discussion. Not having anything official to go on, I tried to use reason to establish what seems to me to be the best definition of what distinguishes a PvP server from a PvE one, that is, that in PvP players are permitted to negatively impact your experience in a direct way, whereas in PvE they are permitted to negatively impact your experience only in an indirect way.

 

The rakghoul plague seems to fall into the former category - it directly impacts you negatively.

 

Note that intention and a lack of intention are different from the directness or indirectness of an effect. Someone can directly impact you intentionally or unintentionally, and they can also indirectly impact you intentionally or unintentionally.

 

You compared spreading the plague to PvP. Contrasting as a verb means to compare in order to show unlikeness or difference (that's the dictionary definition). You were trying to show similarity. That's not contrasting. Comparing something is examining two or more objects, ideas, etc. to show likenesses and differences (again, from the dictionary). That's what you did, focusing more on likeness than difference, if anything. Then you when someone called you out for it, you said you didn't and insinuated the person didn't know basic 5th grade grammar.

 

You've been fairly respectful in this discussion, but own up when you make a mistake.

[Skolops]

I had a deal of respect for you, Skolops, because you haven't been claiming the people spreading the plague are griefing like some of the people in this thread have been doing.

 

You aren't arguing honestly here though. This is nothing like PVP and when you say it is and I call you on it then you try to weasel out of defending those statements it is really disappointing.

 

I'm really not trying to weasel out of anything. Words have meanings, and when I use those words, I intend to convey those meanings. I'm very precise in my word choice. If I say "compare," I mean compare - to the T. If I say "equate," I mean equate. I don't conflate the definitions of words, and I try if at all possible never to use a word unless it perfectly fits the situation.

 

Unfortunately, many people tend to use words very loosely and do not take into account their precise meaning. They search for the first word that is close enough and use it. I'll sit and consider a single word choice carefully for 10 minutes at times, just to make sure I have the correct one.

 

When people read words, they also frequently interpret them loosely. Rather than considering the words for all they are and in their particular definitions, they'll just go with the general sense of the word that comes to their mind. I don't doubt that this leads to many of the disagreements that come up. It's one of the reasons that very, very often people end up having a different opinion of my perspective after 10 posts back and forth, because sometimes it takes that long for them to see what I am actually intending to say.