Immortal Juggernaut Ability Bloat

[Rawrjulian]

This. There is a clear hierarchy in certain skills that serve similar purposes, but you prefer one over the other unless you can't use that skill (e.g. sundering assault over assault unless SA is on cooldown). RIFT's system where you could "overload" a keybind and it would cast the first spell/ability in the list that was castable at that time is a way to streamline things a bit without reducing the variety of the class or creating balancing issues inherent in changing abilities such as removing the CD from SA.

 

why automate the game. you asking to take the player out of the game and just watch a video with that.

[Belwyn]

I hit 50 on my juggernaut (immortal) on sunday night, and I can tell yout he class needs a major overhaul. I don't have a problem with key bindings or rage. My problem is half my skills and the most damaging ones are useless. Since they require the target to be incapacitated they do not work on Elites, or Champions, they also do not work in pvp, even if the target can be incapacitated or slowed.

 

You basically have 2 saber throws, 1 that generates rage and has crap damage and another one that does a descent amount of damage, but can only be used on mobs below 20% hp...

 

If you pvp you are left with a handful of skills you can use, and if you just PVE you get stuck with having to do crap dps vs elites and champions. The class needs a full overhaul on reduced cooldowns, and changed conditions for usage of skills.

[Kojiyama]

Lots of feedback along these lines was given during beta. It's also a pretty serious issue for Operatives as well.

 

On live, my Jugg is level 39 and I already have 2 100% full keybound bars (both bottom bars) and a 3rd (left) bar for buffs, medkits, Channel Hatred, etc.

 

Considering I know that I still have a handful of abilities still to come that do not replace existing ones, I'm baffled by the disconnect between what the class designers have implemented and how people play the game.

 

I have no clue what I'm going to do with Intercede, Backhand, Crushing Blow, Intimidating Roar, Vicious Throw. All clicking does is make playing inefficient and annoying. So more that likely I'll just have to ignore abilities like Pommel Strike--even though it could be useful--for more important things.

 

Oh, and don't forget two relic clickables.

 

As an experienced raid tank in many MMOs, I have a lot of keybinding experience and run a (Shift)123456QERF setup, with a few Alt-bindings as well. The fact that I'm struggling for keybind space when I don't even have all my abilities yet is baffling. (Especially for a game without a macro system.)

 

I also am fairly unhappy with the keybinding positions of a number of my abilities, and don't feel all my core abilities are in the prime locations. Unfortunately, it isn't possible to do this with the number of abilities we have.

 

A long look needs to be taken at things like Sweeping Slash (why not talent/modify Smash?) Savage Kick/Pommel Strike (long cooldown conditionals, merge them with something else!) Vicious Throw (redundant) and the multitude of talented cooldown abilities that cannot innately replace other abilities (e.g. Crushing Blow vs. Sundering Assault.)

 

Additionally, if we are going to stay with such an insane number of skills, a third center bar is a must. If I need 4 hotbars which aren't just buffs and non-combat things then I can't have stuff spread all over the screen. That's just silly and poor design.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Kojiyama

[Liltimma]

You shouldn't be using assault, which would alleviate your action bars. Your main issue seems to berage starvation with only SA as a generator. This would be eliminated by decreasing the minimum range for force charge to 5m or even melee range. As it is now, I try to tank dynamically by dragging them around and slowing them to get another f charge in when rage starved. Assult is essentially a waste of a GCD. I think during force choke there is atalent that allows you to choke them run out and get anther force charge in. I am confident assult is not intended to be in your rotation if you are using SA every cool down. I think the biggest issue right now is that people are looking for a rotation instead of playing a priority that balances tps with defensive col downs. Try poling rage instead of just du. mping witg viscous slosh (another ability I feel you should take off your action bar. Using the three rage on a retaliate is much beyer in my opinion. I think jud tanks are prolly the best in end game but ill have to wait to see.

[Liltimma]

Force push> force charge is another great rage generating combothat I like to use.

[Bahn]

You shouldn't be using assault, which would alleviate your action bars. Your main issue seems to berage starvation with only SA as a generator. This would be eliminated by decreasing the minimum range for force charge to 5m or even melee range. As it is now, I try to tank dynamically by dragging them around and slowing them to get another f charge in when rage starved. Assult is essentially a waste of a GCD. I think during force choke there is atalent that allows you to choke them run out and get anther force charge in. I am confident assult is not intended to be in your rotation if you are using SA every cool down. I think the biggest issue right now is that people are looking for a rotation instead of playing a priority that balances tps with defensive col downs. Try poling rage instead of just du. mping witg viscous slosh (another ability I feel you should take off your action bar. Using the three rage on a retaliate is much beyer in my opinion. I think jud tanks are prolly the best in end game but ill have to wait to see.

 

Not at all. Rage starvation is never an issue. Retaliation only costs me 1 rage point. My screams/smash often only cost 1 or nothing as well due to revenge procs.

 

I gain 1 extra rage every 3 seconds while taking damage. Which is always... I NEED to dump rage faster than I generate it.

 

I have taken ravage off my bars because during that insanely long channel I overgain rage and wind up need to dump it quick.

 

A lot of this could be alleviated with either adding another bar at the bottom, or doing fall through macros. I WANT to use ravage, I WANT to use all the cool abilities, but I just don't have space on my bars with all the stuff I need to survive heroics/flashpoints.

 

Don't forget about the two clickable relics, adrenals, and medpacs. That is an additional 4 abilities that need to be close so that you can use them in an emergency.

Combine that with our defensive cooldowns and you have 7 buttons that are dedicated just to survival. Technically retaliate, scream, and smash are defensive cooldowns and you have one entire hotbar dedicated to defensive cooldowns!!!!

 

It's funny, I just had this conversation last night.

[Thelgow]

I played a Sniper to 31 and wanted to try my hand at tanking.

I was feeling the inquisitor story by lvl 13, so I opted for Juggernaut since I see it less in my guild anyways.

I'm loving it after adjusting to not having 35m range on my moves.

But then I hit the ability wall. So many things to bind. I normally use 1-5, alt-1-5, q,e,t,

then alt qwertasfg.

All over. Normally i have a recipe, alt-1 reaction, at2 is the semi spam, alt3 interrupt, alt-e aoe, etc.

Here I have too many of the same area and its making me break my normall binding.

Also the real horror imo is the lack of bars on the bottom. With all my bindings, I'm still ok with available buttons at lvl 25, but Majority of them are bound on the right bar so far and I cant see the cooldowns on them.

I started copying duplicates onto the bar like saberward/invincible just so I could see if it was available but actually have the slot with bind on the right.

[Wildfae]

I am thinking that since Juggs get sooooo much rage generation the deeper they go into their tree (lvl 23 and im using vicious slash 2-3 times a boss fight to dump rage), if the devs wanted to boost our mitigation or damage it could easily be tied to your rage. the more rage you had, the more it boosted your stats. Not saying that Juggs need a buff, just saying that if they relent to the QQing, that rage could be your means of doing so.

What do you guys think?

[Bahn]

I am thinking that since Juggs get sooooo much rage generation the deeper they go into their tree (lvl 23 and im using vicious slash 2-3 times a boss fight to dump rage), if the devs wanted to boost our mitigation or damage it could easily be tied to your rage. the more rage you had, the more it boosted your stats. Not saying that Juggs need a buff, just saying that if they relent to the QQing, that rage could be your means of doing so.

What do you guys think?

 

Yeah, I kinda see what the devs were going for when they reduced rage generation with the tank stance, but it falls off quickly. The early levels it is a little difficult to generate enough rage, but by early 30's you are specced well enough to not need enrage most of the time.

 

THe only time I use enrage normally is for high burn phases (under 30%) to use a lot of damage abilities queued up, or if I am caught flatfooted by a pull and unable to charge.

 

With retaliation costing 1 rage, most of my smash/screams costing 0, and all of my other rage consuming abilities on long cooldowns I use VS a lot to dump rage. I don't need to "pool" rage as was suggested because the generation far exceeds my ability to spend it.

 

The problem with tying defensive stats to rage is that would limit us even further. In that case, I would not use smash/scream unless I was at 3 stacks of revenge, and I would rarely use the slashes as I would want my mitigation maxed as much as possible.

 

Not a horrible idea, it kinda makes sense, the more mad you are the less you feel the damage.. interesting. maybe make the marauder version they do more damage with more rage?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Bahn

[caffnated]

I'd rather have more time to see everything that's going on in combat than manage 15 different abilities/cool downs. Just hit 30, and I'm already starting to dislike Flashpoint content... the content that my tank class is *designed* to be important for... because I can't see everything that is going on. I'm too busy trying to optimize and prioritize everything I need to hit on my hot bar instead of watching which mobs are doing what. As someone who has played a tank in almost every MMO out there, I'd say there is some room for improvement. As it is, I'm about to say "screw it" and remove some abilities that are fringe and just play un-optimally so I can spend more time watching what's going on in game instead of playing Assault Assault Revolution with my keys. Edited December 28, 2011 by caffnated

[Wildfae]

Yea I've started to notice this and im only 22 or 23 .. I was in Mand where those 4 elite boarding party members were. And there just seemed to be so much going on that I was missing CDs and not building hate well. But the more I think about it, even 4 elites should be cake if you have a good group.

Jugg Tanks one, uses taunt on other, when taunt comes off cd, switch target. You are effectively tanking two elites with no issue. Your team CCs another and burn the last. Then it just gets easy. I think the problem with Jugg abilities is it makes you think you have to use every one for every fight, and you just dont. Most fights you can get away with just using Rendering, Taunt, Assault and Force Scream. Throw a disruption in once and awhile and badabing you are all set.

if you want to get the most damage out of your toon then yes you throw in a bunch of other abilities, but as a tank you dont need to. Just my opinion anyways and its subject to change as I level higher.

 

*edit* also to note the only time I feel like I have to use all of my abilities is when my team is dumb. For example if they all target my target. Makes building hate impossible. if you have 2 elites and 4 weaks, your team should be focusing weaks and strongs, then one of the elites. Not the frigging one that you are tanking. Thats when Sh*t hits the fan and its annoying as hell. And you are forced to pop yoru 3 minute CDs, your guard, taunt, smash, and everything in the world to try and get mobs attention and mitigate team damage.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Wildfae

[Chasim]

This thread definitely deserves more attention. I am not sure if the devs really are going to be looking at Juggs anytime soon but, if they are, this issue should make the short list. I have played MMORPGs for 12 years (including EQ, WoW, and a 1/2 dozen other good games) and this AC by far has the most abilities/cooldowns and that is not a good thing.

 

So, please give Juggs (as least Immortal ones) a little more DPS, a way to gather in loose MoBs (see Force Pull), and LESS "usable" abilities... I am fine with having to pay attention and staying busy but this situation is ridiculous (and it is made worse by the UI limitations and no macros).

[Wildfae]

This thread definitely deserves more attention. I am not sure if the devs really are going to be looking at Juggs anytime soon but, if they are, this issue should make the short list. I have played MMORPGs for 12 years (including EQ, WoW, and a 1/2 dozen other good games) and this AC by far has the most abilities/cooldowns and that is not a good thing.

 

So, please give Juggs (as least Immortal ones) a little more DPS, a way to gather in loose MoBs (see Force Pull), and LESS "usable" abilities... I am fine with having to pay attention and staying busy but this situation is ridiculous (and it is made worse by the UI limitations and no macros).

 

This is just too funny. I have played many MMO's and have seen classes with about the same amount of abilities. Problem is that some of the abilities inevitably become useless as you level. they are essentially replaced with other abilities. And people QQ about how half of their abilities are useless. Devs cant win. They make all of your abilities useful and then people complain. And the other funny part about this quote is you are asking for more abilities .. ROFL! Make up your mind. And its not just you so sorry if I am singling you out, its the whole world of MMO players.

 

*edit* also they give you some AOE Abilities, but are they part of the problem? I mean should they just Wax AOE all together for juggs .. thatd make it easier for you right? Wait then QQ would get worse for threat management. Seriously this is silly. We want a force pull and better AOE threat abilities, but reduce the usable abilities ... sooo we are saying revamp the whole class. Reduce the ability CDs and reduce the amount of abilities. Make them more powerful ... and uhhh can i have a side of fries with that?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Wildfae

[Xanxari]

i dont get ppl say they only have 21 hotkeys, im lvl 50 and tanking, and PvP, and im up to 28 hotheys, and i cant get more its impossible for me to get more in as it is now, "im left handet" and i still have 2 more buttons i need on hotkeys but as i said i cant have them there

 

i need 30 hotkeys, just to tank, and that is insane, dont get me wrong, i love it.....

 

but assult and sundering assult they should be on 1 key, or sundering assult should just replace assult.

 

Vicious slash should b replaced with Crushing blow.

 

Throw and Force throw should b on one key also.

 

then there's pommel strike and savage kick 2 awesome abilities that dont work on goldstar or bosses, insane high damage abilities that could help us with threat in the start of a fight, but is completly useless when you hit lvl 50, hell they dont even work in PVP, i want them to work on everyone..... but that is just more button on my hotbars and i dont have room for more

[Wildfae]

See the above post, exactly everyone's problem. I have a lot less abilities and at a lower level and I basically never use visious slash. Why with all of your other abilities would you need to use it. You dont.

In Rift, as a mage I have roughly 20 abilities that I used somewhat frequently. I had 3 bars of 10 abilities at the bottom and a bar to the right for my pots and consumables. 6-7 were my core abilities that were used all the time. This game is really not much different. You have 6-7 core abilities that you use every fight. then you have unleash used as needed. Then you have shield or 2 to pop as oh Sh*t buttons. You have a disrupt for mage classes and an aoe slow (mainly for pvp). Lastly you have a few aoe damage abilities. But if you are in a boss fight you dont need to spam smash everytime its off cd.

How does that not make sense. It just seems people are overcomplicating the class. or maybe its just that people aren't use to abilities that actually fulfill a function. if you read the Beginners guide there is a very simple order of importance for abilities and you should never get near the bottom of that order (vicious slash for example). Stuff is coming off of cd before then.

There were similar amounts of abilities in a lot of games, but there were macros that people used to help manage them. I think once they implement a macro system, people will stop feeling like they are going crazy.

[Lymain]

I have taken ravage off my bars because during that insanely long channel I overgain rage and wind up need to dump it quick.

 

Does Vicious Slash*2 somehow do more damage than Ravage for you? If not, you may want to reconsider that decision.

[Wildfae]

Does Vicious Slash*2 somehow do more damage than Ravage for you? If not, you may want to reconsider that decision.

 

no idea why you would need vicious slash after around lvl 30.

[Lymain]

no idea why you would need vicious slash after around lvl 30.

 

At least with my spec I do for longer fights, but I sure as heck prioritize Ravage over it.

[Hulkster]

It's too many similar abilities, that do broadly the same thing, each with a cooldown.

 

That means you can;t take anything off your bars.

 

New abilities do not replace old ones, but they aren't even that different. I don't even notice which ability is which based off the damage.

 

So many of the skills could be combined or just deleted if they just removed some of the cooldowns and let resource determine how often we could use abilities.

[Wildfae]

So many of the skills could be combined or just deleted if they just removed some of the cooldowns and let resource determine how often we could use abilities.

 

Ok what abilities would you combine and reduce the cd on? Also keep class balance in mind as well as PvP.

[Ketic]

Lots of feedback along these lines was given during beta. It's also a pretty serious issue for Operatives as well.

 

On live, my Jugg is level 39 and I already have 2 100% full keybound bars (both bottom bars) and a 3rd (left) bar for buffs, medkits, Channel Hatred, etc.

 

Considering I know that I still have a handful of abilities still to come that do not replace existing ones, I'm baffled by the disconnect between what the class designers have implemented and how people play the game.

 

I have no clue what I'm going to do with Intercede, Backhand, Crushing Blow, Intimidating Roar, Vicious Throw. All clicking does is make playing inefficient and annoying. So more that likely I'll just have to ignore abilities like Pommel Strike--even though it could be useful--for more important things.

 

Oh, and don't forget two relic clickables.

 

As an experienced raid tank in many MMOs, I have a lot of keybinding experience and run a (Shift)123456QERF setup, with a few Alt-bindings as well. The fact that I'm struggling for keybind space when I don't even have all my abilities yet is baffling. (Especially for a game without a macro system.)

 

I also am fairly unhappy with the keybinding positions of a number of my abilities, and don't feel all my core abilities are in the prime locations. Unfortunately, it isn't possible to do this with the number of abilities we have.

 

A long look needs to be taken at things like Sweeping Slash (why not talent/modify Smash?) Savage Kick/Pommel Strike (long cooldown conditionals, merge them with something else!) Vicious Throw (redundant) and the multitude of talented cooldown abilities that cannot innately replace other abilities (e.g. Crushing Blow vs. Sundering Assault.)

 

Additionally, if we are going to stay with such an insane number of skills, a third center bar is a must. If I need 4 hotbars which aren't just buffs and non-combat things then I can't have stuff spread all over the screen. That's just silly and poor design.

 

This exactly!

 

I even upgraded the game pad that I use. I now have a TON of hotkeys, but getting them all on my bars, in places that make sense and I can monitor is really tough.

 

I remember in beta the dev's saying that a Warrior revamp was coming, I certainly hope that is still the case and soon. It really does seem like they had some great ideas, a ton of abilities and now just need to stream line it. My wife plays a BH and I asked her last night if she had all her abilities on her bar. She looked at me all confused...she had one bar full and maybe a couple other on the side bars.

 

You don't have to give us 21 unique abilities to make it a good class.

[Mehkis]

I'm no MMO expert, Played WoW for 5-6 years, that's about it, but I'm also feeling like there's a lot of ability bloat. I felt like this around level 25, and thought, "holy cow, I'm only half-way through and I'm feeling really overwhelmed. I can't watch the epic battles I'm in because my eyes are scanning all over the place tracking cooldowns.

 

As for bindings, I bind 1-5,q,e,r,z,x,c,f. Then I use Shift+e and Shift+q to flip action bars. It's worked in the past, but the problem I'm running into with my Sith Warrior tank is that there are so many cooldowns I have difficulty tracking them. Honestly, I don't mind a "simple" class, so I'd be happy with that solution, but I think the problem could also be fixed with some better customization to action bars and/or UI options/Mods to track cooldowns all in one central place.

 

As it stands, it's really overwhelming and frustrating to tank on my Sith Warrior. And hey, if there are enough tanks out there that like it that way, then so be it. I'm just throwing in my 2 credits.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Mehkis

[Khoryphos]

For now the best solution I've found is to make macros on my mouse buttons. It is a pain to set up but simplifies CD management and keybindings. I have my rage generators on one key, my rage dumps on another and then bind the defensive CDs and specialty stuff to my liking.

 

It isn't an elegant solution but it lessens the workload tremendously and allows me to enjoy the class more.

[kikleon]

First off I don't feel there are too many abilities at all. It's not that I want more complexity, I just don't feel it is complex at all. Maybe it's because I havent played the other classes. I also don't see multiple abilities covering the same roles.

 

There are only 3 abilities that I have a small issue with.

 

The PvE only abilities that are only usable in certain circumstances. Remove them, if the extra damage is required add something like (Assault/Sundering does 300 extra damage to stunned/slowed Weak and Standard Enemies)

 

Viscious Assault- As a tank, between other more rage efficient and buff/debuff adding abilities there is rarely a time to use this. It may have a use for dps specs though and it has a use in PvP.

[Bahn]

no idea why you would need vicious slash after around lvl 30.

 

you need slash even MORE after 30. Otherwise you are sitting at full rage and everything on cooldown.

 

Retaliation only costs me 1 rage.

Smash and scream cost between 3 and 0! depending on stacks of revenge.

I get 1 point of rage every 3 seconds from taking damage. So, in essence, even if scream and smash cost it's full rage, I would only be paying for one of them every cooldown of the two abilities.

Even if I didn't use my basic no cooldown rage builder, I still generate an insane amount of rage. Maybe that is the problem. Maybe I should not use my basic generater? Hrm. that is an interesting thought. Maybe I am generating too much rage by using the other ability.

Every other rage using ability is on a long cooldown.

 

Ravage is on a fairly long cooldown, and it is channeled. While tanking, I rarely get to use the full channel as while it is channeling that is more time where you are not tab targetting and wacking other mobs. I just feel that the ravage channel is hurting my aoe threat generation. Hrm. I will have to rethink it and check it again.

 

So, after I blow a full bar of rage on all my long cooldown abilities, what do I use for the next minute when I am sitting at a full bar of rage and waiting the next 12 seconds for smash or scream to come off cooldown?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Bahn