The "Maverick" 1/22/18 - The fun is back.

[Agooz]

Well I've been pretty down with the changes of the Pyro tree. To me, it is not so much of a nerf issue at all. The changes really took the fun out of the typical deep pyro specs. The tree is still in my opinion extremely effective in single target pressure/burst in PvP and PvE.

 

Before 1.2 rolled out, I was toying with the idea of hybrid AP/Pyro, but just looking at the tree calculator, it wasnt adding up. It just seemed that there would be too much dps lost from the upper tiers of Pyro.

 

So I put on my PvE Gear and headed towards the practice dummy with 2/8/31 spec. Full T2 set, Rakata implants. 3pcs modded crit/surge and 2pcs power/surge.

Stats:

1563 Aim

393.1 Bonus (692.8 Tech)

93.35 Accuracy

23.6% crit (27.47% Tech)

78.29 Surge

 

I used MOX Desktop Parser and ran a couple of 300sec parses, leading to 1226 dps the first run, and 1256 dps the second run. I am pretty sure, if I did a few more I could have pushed it a little more.

 

I headed back to respec and did the following (1/22/18):

http://r2-db.com/skill-tree/calculator/9/bounty-hunter/powertech#build=600000000238ec6f1603ckcd0i000

 

The idea was just to see how far behind this spec would be, while gaining faster Quell, 10sec less on grapple, and last but certainly not least HO!

I figured Pyros use Eliminator to get the crit on RS, well with this spec I am pretty much getting a crit everytime RS is up. I am also proccing free RP every 3 FB, which would make Heat management better, leading to very limited use of Rapid Shot. The result?

First run 1160 dps (I actually though that was pretty good)

Second run 1196 dps (I started to get excited)

Third run 1216 (I was having Fun. Crit RS proccing galore, and free RPs were awesome)

Fourth run 1198 (I thought that the third run was going to be the peek, but I thought let me do one more, because I was starting to really dig this)

 

Fifth run:

Duration: 300.44

Total Damage Dealt: 392042

DPS: 1304.9!

 

Breakdown:

Flame Burst_____ 94262......24.04%

Rail Shot_____ 93081......23.74

Burning (Tech) _____ 87053......22.21%

Rocket Punch _____48129......12.28%

Bleeding _____28249......7.21%

Rapid Shots _____20487......5.23%

Retractable Blade _____18527......4.73%

Icendiary Missile _____2254......0.57%

 

Surprises:

- Well the whole spec surprised me in general.

- CGC. I always knew CGC was superior but didnt think it accounted for THAT much of our total damage. 22.21%!! Hec now I think running a 0/31/10 in CGC would do more dps than your typical AP spec in HEGC.

- RB actually contributed quite a bit. That accounted to about 12% by making it part of the rotation every 6sec approx.

- Flame Burst!

 

This started out as something I would want to try in PvP. But looking at 1309 dps, makes it perfectly viable for PvE.

 

I will be testing this in WZ and raids over the next few days and see how it fares. I know it doesnt have the BIG bursts of deep pyro, but it provides relentless pressure. That plus having better quell, more grapple, and HO, I think the trade off maybe well worth it.

 

I will actually use T2 PvE set and grab my mods from my BM gear, and go with Power/Surge enhancement. But I think BM Combat Tech would work well too as you will be critting more RPs and making use of better carbon.

 

I would love for some of the more experienced PTs to give it a try, PvE and/or PvP and give us your feedback.

 

Dont ask me why I am calling it The "Maverick". It's 4:00am here right now and that's the first thing that popped in my head.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Agooz

[Aweepo]

I play non-RS spec, but by looking at talents just 1 question comes to mind, if its for burst.

 

why choose -free RS- over 30% dmg increase on flame burst, seeing its the highest dmg of your rotation, a 30% increase seems good?

 

I've no idea, just wondered

[exphryl]

I play non-RS spec, but by looking at talents just 1 question comes to mind, if its for burst.

 

why choose -free RS- over 30% dmg increase on flame burst, seeing its the highest dmg of your rotation, a 30% increase seems good?

 

I've no idea, just wondered

 

Since AP/Pyro hybrids run CGC, it misses out on the passive heat removal HEGC has. Having PPA with these builds is critical to keeping your Heat as low as possible and very easily maintainable so you can keep a good uptime on DPS.

[Agooz]

I play non-RS spec, but by looking at talents just 1 question comes to mind, if its for burst.

 

why choose -free RS- over 30% dmg increase on flame burst, seeing its the highest dmg of your rotation, a 30% increase seems good?

 

I've no idea, just wondered

 

I am sorry, I am not following. What 30% for FB? Are you referring to Prototype Weapon Systems? If so, first of all it is not 30% to FB. It's 30% surge. I would love to take it, but not enough points

The concept of the build is as such; AP's investment into RS seem nice on the surface until you realize it just doesnt fit the focus of the tree. Why invest that many points into RS, when you will only be using it every 15sec. That's why the non-RS AP, makes more sense to me and others who are now running it.

This spec however, is the complete opposite. It's actually forgoing the staples of AP, which are PFT and Immo, to make use ONLY of the RS investment. Thus the need to take the PPA in Pyro.

That point in Shieldtech is a floater. I was thinking it could be put in Intimidation or Rail Loaders, and it would add a little more dps to one of the main damage outputs of the spec. But since was originally for pvp, I chose more mitigation, especially on use of my main attack was more valuable.

 

By the way, I did try salvaging 2 points and putting them in PFT, thinking that incorporating FT in the rotation would increase the dps, but it didnt. It actually did worse, plus the rotation seemed clunky, which also confirms that the non-RS AP spec is more fluid.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Agooz

[TheOpf]

I am sorry, I am not following. What 30% for FB? Are you referring to Prototype Weapon Systems? If so, first of all it is not 30% to FB. It's 30% surge. I would love to take it, but not enough points

The concept of the build is as such; AP's investment into RS seem nice on the surface until you realize it just doesnt fit the focus of the tree. Why invest that many points into RS, when you will only be using it every 15sec. That's why the non-RS AP, makes more sense to me and others who are now running it.

This spec however, is the complete opposite. It's actually forgoing the staples of AP, which are PFT and Immo, to make use ONLY of the RS investment. Thus the need to take the PPA in Pyro.

That point in Shieldtech is a floater. I was thinking it could be put in Intimidation or Rail Loaders, and it would add a little more dps to one of the main damage outputs of the spec. But since was originally for pvp, I chose more mitigation, especially on use of my main attack was more valuable.

 

By the way, I did try salvaging 2 points and putting them in PFT, thinking that incorporating FT in the rotation would increase the dps, but it didnt. It actually did worse, plus the rotation seemed clunky, which also confirms that the non-RS AP spec is more fluid.

 

Good Testing! I was thinking of this and think I mentioned it with you in another thread. To use a Hybrid optimizing RS is a pretty good idea. I would love to hear your experiences in PvP. I think the 30 percent bonus to Flame Burst is the Crit damage Burst. I am surprised that PPA crit RS builds can lend to a higher dps. The loss of Rain of Fire I figured would give you at least a 10 percent net dps loss.

 

I think in pve settings on boss fights deep Pyro will still come ahead because you lose Burnout, but seeing as most Pyro's rarely use IM due to it's heat usage it makes sense you would see a higher dps on a training dummy.

 

I like the idea of another version of hybrids.

[Agooz]

Good Testing! I was thinking of this and think I mentioned it with you in another thread. To use a Hybrid optimizing RS is a pretty good idea. I would love to hear your experiences in PvP. I think the 30 percent bonus to Flame Burst is the Crit damage Burst. I am surprised that PPA crit RS builds can lend to a higher dps. The loss of Rain of Fire I figured would give you at least a 10 percent net dps loss.

 

Most Pyros are running Eliminator sets. This test was with T2 pve set. The bonus is 8% damage to RS. So this spec gives pretty much Crits on all your RSs, which is far more than the Eliminator set, PLUS the 8% on the PvE set pretty much replaces the loss of Rain of Fire.

The real Loss in this spec is Burnout and Firebug. Which is why I said you wont see the BIG numbers like a deep pyro. But it seems the increased crits on our main damage output is kind of balancing it.

 

I think in pve settings on boss fights deep Pyro will still come ahead because you lose Burnout, but seeing as most Pyro's rarely use IM due to it's heat usage it makes sense you would see a higher dps on a training dummy.

 

I like the idea of another version of hybrids.

 

Yes, I think burnout would push deep Pyro over on bosses. But if this performs well enough in PvP with its utilities, then it saves on respec costs for people like me who pvp and raid.

 

It would be great if you, exphryl, and others who are very familiar with deep Pyro and deep AP, would give it a try to compare it to your own dps with the respective builds. I know like my 1256 using deep pyro may be alot less than someone else's output in Pyro. I would like to see its performance with someone who has much better stats, and much lower stats.

Like with any new build, not giving it enough time, may lead to the wrong conclusion. I just dont want to only rely on my own perception in pvp and quickly dismiss it. If there is some merit to it based on others saying so, it will push me to stick to it for a while to really gauge its performance.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Agooz

[Klay]

I have come up with pretty much the same spec myself, but i think you should put points in PFT. One point from PPA shouldn't hurt too much and the burst of FT is just awesome for pvp. It would be a mistake to leave it out even if u didnt use it in pve Edited April 13, 2012 by Klay

[exphryl]

 

It would be great if you, exphryl, and others who are very familiar with deep Pyro and deep AP, would give it a try to compare it to your own dps with the respective builds. I know like my 1256 using deep pyro may be alot less than someone else's output in Pyro. I would like to see its performance with someone who has much better stats, and much lower stats.

Like with any new build, not giving it enough time, may lead to the wrong conclusion. I just dont want to only rely on my own perception in pvp and quickly dismiss it. If there is some merit to it based on others saying so, it will push me to stick to it for a while to really gauge its performance.

 

Once I get done fiddling with Full Pyro i'll revisit these Hybrids (Which I loved before patch mind you so should like it just as much). So should have something nicely written up to add to this by mid week to add.

 

In the meantime look forward to see how the rest of your tests pan out.

 

Also found your comment on 0/31/10 Interesting. I think heat might be pretty bad although you have a lot of burst potential.

Edited April 13, 2012 by exphryl

[Agooz]

I have come up with pretty much the same spec myself, but i think you should put points in PFT. One point from PPA shouldn't hurt too much and the burst of FT is just awesome for pvp. It would be a mistake to leave it out even if u didnt use it in pvp

 

Like I said, I did try 0/23/18 on the dummy. I lost HO in the process. But I was also thinking of taking 1 point out of PPA, but since this was a test, I just wanted to see the effect of PFT without loosing the chances to proc PPA to make a fair comparison. The result was that did less dps. If I remember correctly I got it to 1109. I think PFT needs HEGC + Intimidation. That's 14% boost that this spec cant have.

 

As a pyro, I actually make use of FT all the time. So even in this spec, I will still continue to use it as a utility more than a burst. But I would be interested to hear more about your pvp experience with this. What are the numbers you see with all the attacks vs. BM players, how much damage is a 5x FT doing with this spec, etc...

[Agooz]

/bump

 

Please dont bury me

 

I really could use more feedback, criticism, tips (gear setup or otherwise). I know the servers are down. I just dont want only my impressions be the deciding factor on this.

[dardack]

/bump

 

Please dont bury me

 

I really could use more feedback, criticism, tips (gear setup or otherwise). I know the servers are down. I just dont want only my impressions be the deciding factor on this.

 

If i didn't love full AP so much, I'd try it. Sorry man.

[Sototh]

You got a rotation there?

Thanx for all your work!

[TheOpf]

/bump

 

Please dont bury me

 

I really could use more feedback, criticism, tips (gear setup or otherwise). I know the servers are down. I just dont want only my impressions be the deciding factor on this.

 

haha, I am trying to keep the full AP guide on the front page too. Luckily the BH community is nothing like the Consular/Warrior/marauder/Assassin community. They generally only post when they feel like they need to.

[Agooz]

You got a rotation there?

Thanx for all your work!

 

It's more of a priority rotation (based on heat level). When your Heat is high, priority is given to RS and free FP, when heat is low, FB and RB. The whole point is to limit the use of Rapid shot as much as possible.:

1) RS (on proc)

2) RP (when free)

3) RB (every 6sec, as it is expiring)

4) FB in between

 

I've only played around with it last night, I find the key is making use of both the Heat Venting mechanism (RS on burning and RP when free), WITHOUT wasting them when you dont need to vent. So if you are at 0-40 heat and both are up, it would be better to use RS first, followed by FB, then RP to bring down heat.

Paying attention to heat and maximizing your venting I think is much easier in PvE. In PvP however, I think you shouldnt bother too much with that, and instead make use of the utilities of AP, which is the whole point of going with this spec. If it was just dps or burst, there is absolutely no reason to do this. But with this spec you got the faster quell, more grapple and more importantly Hydraulic Overdrive.

 

I think it is definitely worth it to spend 20min or so practicing on the dummy, because it really has a fun factor. And I am looking more for feedback and criticism and less of giving my own take on it, since I am just as new to it as anyone else.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Agooz

[TheOpf]

Agooz, I will look into it in a few days. I am going to Monterey with my girlfriend for the weekend, and will be back on Monday. When I get back, I want to run the parser for a few days testing RS and NORS builds, than I will try yours.

[exphryl]

Agooz, quick question before I start fiddling with these AP/Pyro builds again. To keep things consistent.

 

Did you use adrenals, relics, etc in your parse? If so which ones.

[Agooz]

Agooz, quick question before I start fiddling with these AP/Pyro builds again. To keep things consistent.

 

Did you use adrenals, relics, etc in your parse? If so which ones.

 

1) I use explosive Fuel + Relic of Boundless Ages. 2) Then in about 30-60 sec I use Rakata Power Adrenal + Relic of Forbidden Secrets. With the 300sec, I get to this twice with each set.

[Agooz]

Ok First day in WZ: 5 games played - Won 3. All SOLO queue.

I went in with BM Combat Medic gear, I modded out 5 things with power/surge, so I lost about 125expertise.

 

First Game was horrible for me, then I realized that I forgot all about RB lol.

I am realizing how important RB is to this spec, without it, might as well go back to Pyro. You have to focus on making sure RB is the first thing to throw on someone. You need to maximize the Crit rate of Charged Gauntlets.

 

Second game was the new WZ and it was my first time in there, and I was really all over the place. The game started 2(my team lol) vs 4, we were down 2 bunkers, then more people showed up, and we ended up winning.

I am surprised how well I go 1vs1 with this spec. I started using grapple on demand, not really saving it, which helps close a gap to place RB right away. HO is AWESOME. I was guarding a bunker vs 3 people, I was going down fast but I saw on the minimap that I had reinforcements coming. I popped HO and kite them around the bunker. They didnt hit me once. Anyways, 2 teamates showed up, and we killed them and I lived.

So the utility is definitely there. Also with Quell I dont save it either, just the moment I see a cast bar, I hit it, knowing I still have carbon and stun and another quell right away if I needed it.

 

Third game Voidstar, I hit 505k (approx 150k more than the second highest, so again was surprised)

 

I know there is a lot of room for improvement, because for the most part I still, out of habit, play it as a pyro, when in fact it needs more juggling and paying a little more attention to the buff icons.

 

The most noticeable benefit is HEAT. I dont think I used Rapid Shot more than a handful of time in all the 5 games combined. In fact, as I am getting better at it, it probably has as good as, if not better Heat Management than AP+HEGC.

 

The most noticeable disadvantage, no more high end 4Ks RS (but I think a lot of that has to do with 1.2 with expertise and such). But I definitely was doing alot of mid 3Ks. That also led to less medals because of not breaking some high thresholds.

 

It is really boiling down to utility. So in the next few days, I will see if the heat management + faster quell + more grapples + HO outweight the bigger spikes of deep Pyro. If I am loosing total damage output, I dont think it is more than 5%. But then again, I am just guessing.

 

I am going to have to switch to pyro anyways so I can make a fair comparison post 1.2. All I am going by is my experience with pyro before all these changes. I hear alot of people saying they are seeing lower numbers in general, so I will have to check that out.

 

Highlight, I can score more easily now in huttball thanks to HO.

[Agooz]

Day 2 (PvP)

 

7 out of 7 wins. Queuing Solo.

 

Ok different observation from day 1; medals are not an issue anymore, now that I am getting used to the spec. Getting 11-14 medals is the norm.

 

Making sure RP and RB being priority to have the most chances at RS crits, and I am seeing alot of RS crits.

 

Avg RS crit Low 3ks. So certainly lower than Pyro RS crits, but ALOT more crits. Also alot more RP crits due to the 15% combat tech bonus.

 

I still go to cap turrets on my own vs 1 and vs 2, and perform just as good as speccing deep pyro.

 

I am definitely using quell and grapple a lot more, instead of leaving them as a backup ability in Pyro. HO while great, I still need to force myself to find more uses for it.

 

I am really glad I respecced 4 times this week. 5th respec would have cost way to much just for testing purposes, so it forced me to stick to this and actually get really good at it.

 

Tomorrow raiding the new Ops, and I hope I am not asked to tank. I really want to get a parse with this spec.

 

Anyone else trying it?

[milesing]

Hey, I've been fooling around with builds like this (theorycrafting and live play) for just under a week.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3808592#post3808592

 

Firebug build is pretty cool if you stack up your crit, not sure if it's worth losing out on an auto crit though. Would take some longer testing to work out all the statistical anomalies.

 

I'm also eager to try a build that looks like this 0/23/18

 

i think they point in CG could be move over to HO, as it's pretty useful for getting off a full PFT.

i'm under the assumption that a build like this would be a little clunky to play, but offers strong ranged and melee burst.

[Agooz]

 

I'm also eager to try a build that looks like this 0/23/18

 

i think they point in CG could be move over to HO, as it's pretty useful for getting off a full PFT.

i'm under the assumption that a build like this would be a little clunky to play, but offers strong ranged and melee burst.

 

I already tried 0/23/18 and it didnt do so well. FT is nowhere near what it would be with deep AP spec. You loose out 14% just by not having HEGC and Intimidation. Plus, you already have your hands full weaving in FB every CD and RB, FBs and making use of a ton of RS.

What I suggest 1/22/18 seems to be the most bang per point, in my opinion. And loosing CG is an absolute NO. The whole point of a spec like this is to get the majority of your PPA procs to crit.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Agooz

[Gomezie]

So Agooz, are you now running the spec originally mentioned in the first post?

 

Im confused

[Agooz]

So Agooz, are you now running the spec originally mentioned in the first post?

 

Im confused

 

Yes, The "Maverick" 1/22/18. I am on Day 3 now in PvP and I am really really liking it. I am back in the top 1-3 in damage/kills/medals.

The extra utility, higher crit chances on RS, better heat management, mobility (HO), are really showing that they are at least on par if not outweighing the slightly extra dps and higher spikes of deep Pyro.

 

Try is for at least 2 days, keeping in mind the things I highlighted before and I think you will really like it.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Agooz

[Gomezie]

Cool.. tried a few AP builds and they are much fun but seem lacking.. especially when the PFT gets interrupted or doesnt hit anything.

 

Will try this build and feed back

[Agooz]

Do a few practice runs on a dummy to get a feel for the different procs that are happening. Making sure RP has priority and having RB on anyone you're fighting, will maximize the crits of RS.