Does a Jugger's Tanking Ability Improve?

[randomeclipse]

Hey guys,

 

I re-rolled Empire from a dead PvE server, and stumped for a fresh char I hadn't tried before.

 

However, I am now level 21 and although I believe I've numerous CC skills to collect I am finding that tanks in SW:ToR don't really justify the name. Well when you compare them to tanks in other games anyhow, as in I'd like to guard someone without dying to mitigated damage, or be able to run into a group of Reps and be a nuisance - not necessarily dish out lots of damage, but not die like a cloth wearing casting class....

 

It really does seem like Bioware COMPLETELY missed the point on what a tank should be able to do, and although I am sure (read: praying) it will improve as I get into the 30's and 40's I can't help but be dissapointed.

 

Note: Coming from Warhammer Online I perhaps jumped the gun in thinking a tank would be tough to kill, but meh

 

Please tell me if I'm confused and wrong.

[AngelousWang]

Hey guys,

 

I re-rolled Empire from a dead PvE server, and stumped for a fresh char I hadn't tried before.

 

However, I am now level 21 and although I believe I've numerous CC skills to collect I am finding that tanks in SW:ToR don't really justify the name. Well when you compare them to tanks in other games anyhow, as in I'd like to guard someone without dying to mitigated damage, or be able to run into a group of Reps and be a nuisance - not necessarily dish out lots of damage, but not die like a cloth wearing casting class....

 

It really does seem like Bioware COMPLETELY missed the point on what a tank should be able to do, and although I am sure (read: praying) it will improve as I get into the 30's and 40's I can't help but be dissapointed.

 

Note: Coming from Warhammer Online I perhaps jumped the gun in thinking a tank would be tough to kill, but meh

 

Please tell me if I'm confused and wrong.

 

Armour rating does almost nothing in PVP and tech/force attacks ignore the off-hand shield generator in PVP. That is why you are paper in PVP, you cannot tank in PVP without a healer, all you can do is burn your cool downs and be a distraction. Or just play objectives, you being ever so slightly more base survivable and all the cool downs make you good for ball carrying or defending doors/turrets long enough for backup to arrive.

 

In PVE Juggernaut works OK (AOE tanking issues though), but the other Tanks work better ... well with 1.2 on the horizon we will see..

Edited April 9, 2012 by AngelousWang

[krazi]

Armour rating does almost nothing in PVP and tech/force attacks ignore the off-hand shield generator in PVP. That is why you are paper in PVP, you cannot tank in PVP without a healer, all you can do is burn your cool downs and be a distraction. Or just play objectives, you being ever so slightly more base survivable and all the cool downs make you good for ball carrying or defending doors/turrets long enough for backup to arrive.

 

In PVE Juggernaut works OK (AOE tanking issues though), but the other Tanks work better ... well with 1.2 on the horizon we will see..

 

Completely nailed it.

[thorizdin]

PvP part is right, the PvE is not.

[TheronFett]

I play a full Immortal spec w/ War Leader (tanking) gear in PvP. My stats are bordering on ideal (30/30/30), and all things considered, I do okay in PvP. Most of the time I'm 7+ medals, even though my damage output is laughable. It's all about play style. As a Juggy tank in PvP, you're not going to stand there and "tank" 3+ opponents. It's just not going to happen.

 

Focus on maxing your DEFENSE stat. Most PvP damage types (tech/force/internal) are not mitigated by your shield. DEFENSE, however, does work in PvP. It works to your advantage especially because most players replace their accuracy mods with damage ones, so their accuracy is low (around 90%). High defense + low accuracy = missed attacks. Not mitigated, they miss you completely. Granted, this mostly applies to white damage as force/tech attacks have their own accuracy rating. Just pointing out that defense is more important than shield/absorb in PvP.

 

As for play style...

 

Toss guard around liberally. Don't just plant it on a single person and follow them around the whole game. Ideally, you have a healer buddy who will keep you up while you soak up all that damage, but that isn't always the case. If you're not pulling 100K from guard in a match, you're doing it wrong. Use your taunts whenever possible.

 

Chilling Scream is also awesome. If spec'd, you can spam it with 0 Rage cost and keep the other team at 50% speed the whole match. This is incredibly valuable in any warzone, but especially in the Voidstar tunnels between objectives. You have a ton of CC. Force Push people into acid pits/fire. Knock healers out of range of their teammates. Force Choke an annoying opponent so others can beat on him.

 

Are you a wrecking ball? No. But you can be one hell of a ball carrier and annoyance to the other team that goes a long way to keeping them from completing objectives.

[Vid-szhite]

Armour rating does almost nothing in PVP and tech/force attacks ignore the off-hand shield generator in PVP. That is why you are paper in PVP, you cannot tank in PVP without a healer, all you can do is burn your cool downs and be a distraction. Or just play objectives, you being ever so slightly more base survivable and all the cool downs make you good for ball carrying or defending doors/turrets long enough for backup to arrive.

 

The trick to being survivable in PvP is to have loads and loads of health, both to sustain Guard a long time and to make those potential big hits worth far less against you. You'll want at least 20k HP before you try tanking in PvP, which actually makes Rakata and Columi more valuable than PvP gear. It works really well, but you need to throw guard on anyone near you that's taking damage, need to be taunting like a madman, and need to be interceding people in trouble. Without a healer, you will die to focus fire or Guard attrition, but that is the nature of PvP. A good tank will have at least 100k protection at the end of a match. If you do not have this, you were not taunting and guarding enough. Anything less than 50k can be done by a DPS Jugg with taunts alone.

 

You actually DON'T want to be the first one to charge in, because you will be focused down. You want to be the last in so that nobody notices you at first, and your taunts can work their magic. Once their team realizes you're there and making their life hell, it will be too late, your team will have gained the upper hand. If they continue to beat on their target, they have 30% reduced damage, and if they focus you, they'll take forever to kill you and your team will be able to finish them off in total safety.

 

Unlike a DPS, but similar to a healer, you can't really kill anyone. If your team is heal-heavy or tank-heavy, you won't be able to win, because Healers and Tanks are only meant to support the DPS while the DPS seal the deal. A team with a good balance of Tank, Heal, and DPS is virtually unstoppable, but you rarely hit that sweet spot in randoms, and the one thing you could always use more of is DPS. Even a team of all DPS can win because they kill the enemy healers FAST, but a team of all healers can't win because they can't last forever against an onslaught of DPS on all fronts, who aren't dying because nobody can kill them. A team of mostly tanks will similarly fail because they need support against Yellow Number classes.

 

If Tanks could stand there and not die against 3+ opponents, they would be overpowered, even though you CAN do this with a healer backing you up. With the ability to make any other person virtually immortal through Guard, your only chance against a good tank is to focus his healer as hard as you can, even if he's guarding that healer. Since you NEED to kill absolutely everyone in order to capture objectives in Alderaan and Voidstar, again, the ability to not die against half a team would be completely and utterly OP. Any team with a tank would never lose a point ever again.

 

In PVE Juggernaut works OK (AOE tanking issues though), but the other Tanks work better ... well with 1.2 on the horizon we will see..

 

False. Juggs work just as good as any other tank, and can be amazing, even in Ops - your choice of tank rarely matters in Ops, as it turns out, because in AoE tanking situations, if your DPS is good enough to finish the Operation, they will pull hate from you with their AoE no matter what, and you rarely have Single Target thread problems - but if you do, Crushing Blow is becoming High Threat in 1.2.

 

The idea that AoE tanking is impossible or bad as a Jugg is a myth. Everyone, even Tankasins and PTs, needs to run around and whack things to herd up all the mobs. Death From Above is on a 1m cooldown, longer than our AoE taunt without any talents, and if you need that to AoE tank, you'll be SOL 80% of the time.

 

Last healer I tanked for said not only that I was a hell of a tank, but that I reminded him of Yoda with how much bouncing around I did. When I switched to DPS, I saw a Fresh-50 Juggernaut tank a BT with such precision that it reminded me of a full-rakata Tankasin who had done the same thing. Everyone agreed, he was amazing.

 

 

 

TL;DR - yes it does get better at high levels, OP, but you have to work hard and be aggressive, almost never staying on one mob for a long time. Every tank loses hate to geared DPS who don't use aggro reducers. No matter what, though, you CANNOT allow yourself to play like a DPS and expect that to work.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Prolyfic]

Note: Coming from Warhammer Online I perhaps jumped the gun in thinking a tank would be tough to kill, but meh

 

warhammer tanks aren't tough to kill at lvl 20 either...

 

That said as an ex-chosen with a pvp tank build who leveled almost exclusively thru pvp in WAR, I find shieldtech to be much closer to my experiences with WAR tanks than Jugg.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Prolyfic

[Elyx]

the above adivce is good stuff OP. 2 other things to keep in mind :

 

1) Juggs/Guards mature a bit later then other classes. post mid 30's is where most the talent specs start to shine. if you look at the Immortal tree as an example (currently), most the real nice defensive talents, effective CC options, and heavier damage skills rest in the top 2-3 tiers. It's later on that Jugg's start to show their colors. same with vengance and rage...early 30's fore vengance, 40+ for rage. the class isn't BROKE before then, but don't expect stellar performance until those critical talents come rolling in.

 

2) Jugg/Guard has a higher requirement then the other classes in watching your skill use. Most the good end game tanks will tell you that successful threat generation and mitigation is boiled down to how you rotate your skills, and CD's. and i'm not just talking about a simple rotation, I'm talking about a dozen or more skills that can all help you, and need to be hit at the right time. learning curve is higher, and repercussions for making the wrong choices affect you much faster then the other tanks.

 

all that said and done, it's still the best class in the game IMO. I have a hard time playing anything else.

[Vid-szhite]

Focus on maxing your DEFENSE stat. Most PvP damage types (tech/force/internal) are not mitigated by your shield. DEFENSE, however, does work in PvP. It works to your advantage especially because most players replace their accuracy mods with damage ones, so their accuracy is low (around 90%). High defense + low accuracy = missed attacks. Not mitigated, they miss you completely. Granted, this mostly applies to white damage as force/tech attacks have their own accuracy rating. Just pointing out that defense is more important than shield/absorb in PvP.

 

False. Defense and Shields are both completely ignored by yellow number (Tech/Force) attacks, which have base 100% accuracy and never miss unless their accuracy is reduced. Defense and Shield both work miracles against Weapon attacks, which have a base accuracy of 90%.

 

Defense is, however, probably far more useful simply because no one likes to use accuracy even if they are a weapon-heavy class (Marauder, Juggernaut, Assassin, Sniper). Marauders, Juggernauts, and Assassins are extremely common classes in PvP, and the most common Republic class is the Sentinel, so it's still worth it to use defense and shield, and in 1.2, Merc/Commando is going to be forced to use Full Auto/Unload far more often, which are weapon attacks, helping tanks even more.

 

Do not foresake shields completely unless you are a DPS Jugg. The DPS you gain going to Focus is not worth it as a tank. Every class is mitigated at least somewhat by Defense/Shield except for Sage and Sorcerer. Even Vanguard and Powertech rely on Rail Shot, which is a Weapon attack.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[TheronFett]

AFAIK Defense doesn't ignore force/tech attacks, it's a base hit/miss roll against any attack. Shield/absorb may be ignored, but pretty sure defense still applies. Edited April 9, 2012 by TheronFett

[TheronFett]

EDIT: Blah, double post. Edited April 9, 2012 by TheronFett

[clearsighted]

Defense-specced juggernauts or guardians are basically the Derek Fisher of the warzone. You bring intangibles, but not much else. About the only number you might impress with is Protector, and that requires a healer who gives a damn about you. Most will just let you die, if you guard them.

 

Most people want to be the Kobe Bryant of the team...and sadly, they might as well. However many intangibles Derek Fisher might bring, a team of Kobe Bryants brings much much more. Hell, a team of Pau Gasols would too.

[thorizdin]

That's all true in solo queuing. Ranked team PvP will show us what is and what is not actually effective.

[Bastus]

[quote name='AngelousWang']Armour rating does almost nothing in PVP and tech/force attacks ignore the off-hand shield generator in PVP. That is why you are paper in PVP, you cannot tank in PVP without a healer, all you can do is burn your cool downs and be a distraction. Or just play objectives, you being ever so slightly more base survivable and all the cool downs make you good for ball carrying or defending doors/turrets long enough for backup to arrive. In PVE Juggernaut works OK (AOE tanking issues though), but the other Tanks work better ... well with 1.2 on the horizon we will see..[/QUOTE] Absolutely true. Heavy armor is such a gimmick. Without some inherent healing ability, all jug tanks can do in pvp is die slowly. And though we are excellent when it comes to objectives, actually scoring a huttball is worth jack sh*t when it comes to MVP votes. The fact that an assassin tank is preferred to an experienced jug tank sickened me to the point of abandoning my jug until 1.2 for my Mara. I honestly think BW has it out for Juggernauts. Really I do. The fact that our hyped up armor and shield generator are worthless in pvp, and nothing has been done to change this is even a little, is hate.

[randomeclipse]

Thanks for all the responses guys, appreciate them.

 

Do you all have high hopes for 1.2 then?

[unclekaula]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

[randomeclipse]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

 

Please elaborate if you feel info is incorrect, as that would help everyone

[Rethos]

Tanks don't work the same way in SWToR, you actually have to think about what you're doing in PvE and PvP versus the arcade click fest warhammer, wow, and many other games became.

 

I play both immortal spec and vengeance spec jugg both in pve and pvp. As well as rage in pvp.

 

I can tank single target and multi target (aoe threat) in PvE operations easily. We do nightmare content so it works just fine. I can dps in PvE nightmare content with no issues.

 

Tanking in pvp I can do 400k+ protection. DPS in pvp I can do 400k+ damage and top kill boards.

 

For all those people who come into this forum/thread with overgeneralized statements where they nitpick one aspect of the class without looking at the overall performance capability of the class, go away.

 

For all those people who don't level to 50 before making statements about the classes capabilities or have never played the class and think your paper theory stands up to experience, go away.

 

For all those people who keep making the base statement that other tanks are better than juggernaut without supporting it with significant and unbiased analysis, go away.

 

If you can't play the class properly don't hate on the class or others who are playing the class properly because you are frustrated. Rather, go find someone who knows what the hell they are doing and can prove it and learn from them.

 

And for the record, a Juggernaut wins versus a Marauder, one on one, EVERY time in ANY SPEC. Why?

 

Because I'm a Juggernaut, *****!

Edited April 10, 2012 by Rethos