bloodelfdude Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) After reading forums, I have not really seen any changes in the last week or so...: From what I read (not necesarly my opnion, just my summary from folk that I believe have better insight): - PVP healing is dead (does this take into consideration other healers are being nerf'd?) - Hybrid Wrath - CL dead (clearly stated in notes) - lightning tree has best survivability for dps spec, but low dps output - madness tree best dps alternative, there are concerns dot's will be cleansed to quickly in rated, and low survivability - hybrid healing / madness spec is full utility, I'm interested in this in that there are not looking to be any solid alternatives, but this build isn't really an eye catcher for me, but I'll try anything. I understand the need for nerfing at a long term game development level, I'm a bit at loss as to what spec is viable for PVP now; I'll heal, dps, whatever my class is best at. However if my understaning is correct (may very well not be), the only hope we have is that other classes nerfs make our nerfs not as bad as things seem. Thanks for any opinions on the balance in the 1.2 PTS, I hope it's not as bad as it is sounding, I've really been enjoying this game. Edited April 9, 2012 by bloodelfdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 The problem is you're stuck playing a gimmick class no matter what. You're not longer a damage class regardless- you're 'support damage', as in, you can't kill anyone but you can help real classes kill people (kind of like a companion). You aren't a healer supression class, your tools are simply bad for keeping a healer locked down. You can go for a mix of CC and have nothing else- even then, you're a CC class with a specced instant single target mez that fills resolve- while other classes get aoe instant mezzes for free. You get one stun, if you get a cast root that's pretty much the point of your spec- the root. If you get the mez bubble and knockback root- that's the gimmick of your spec because it's in a tree with poorer than poor dps. Or, you can go healing but only have a purpose when nobody's on you, and, run out of force so fast it'll likely be more beneficial to die than to waste time trying to get your force back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodelfdude Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share Posted April 9, 2012 Thanks for the input... what a buzz kill... Are most sorcerers going to stick it out, or is there really going to be a lot of people that stop playing the class? With 20 days played, I really can't reroll, or rather won't reroll. Is there anyone that has played on PTR 1.2 and believes sorcs are ok? I've read enough in other threads and forums to know people think that, but it seems more of a generalization as opposed to first hand experience or with legit facts to back it up. Please only post pro 1.2 commetns if you have first hand expereience to support your perpspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 - madness tree best dps alternative, there are concerns dot's will be cleansed to quickly in rated, and low survivability I'm still not sure I understand this. Only other Sorcs can cleanse our DoTs, the other 7 ACs are SOL. Sure, purging them will be more common in rated BGs, but I seriously doubt it will be sufficiently so to negate the usefulness of the spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelerific Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 I'm still not sure I understand this. Only other Sorcs can cleanse our DoTs, the other 7 ACs are SOL. Sure, purging them will be more common in rated BGs, but I seriously doubt it will be sufficiently so to negate the usefulness of the spec. Exactly. People are screaming end of the world for Sorc healers in PvP, and then are also screaming end of the world for madness sorcs in pvp cuz all the healer sorcs will just purge in rated WZ's.. It sure won't be both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodelfdude Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the good arguments that madness may still be viable in 1.2 PVP. I've never spec'd healing, but have always planned too (have both BM sets), is there any hope for pvp healing for sorcs in 1.2, or is the general concensus that it's over? Edited April 9, 2012 by bloodelfdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelerific Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 Thanks for the good arguments that madness may still be viable in 1.2 PVP. I've never spec'd healing, but have always planned too (have both BM sets), is there any hope for pvp healing for sorcs in 1.2, or is the general concensus that it's over? It will be difficult to adjust for the experience Sorc PvP healers, for someone new to sorc healing, it will be a terribly hard learning curve. Things will just be different, and yes quite a bit more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pureeffinmetal Posted April 9, 2012 Share Posted April 9, 2012 Concerns with Madness are more about the burst damage of the specc, which is fairly non-existent. By the time you have someone fully dotted, say a marauder or a powertech, you're probably all ready dead or low enough where you have to run away for you life. People too often want to compare Madness to Affliction Warlocks, but DoTs break CC in this game. We can't whirlwind and watch our dots eat away peoples health ala Fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodelfdude Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share Posted April 9, 2012 Thanks for the continued comments. I'm trying to be objective, and I think the responses here are objetive, but it's hard not to jump to the "sky is falling" scenario. I read the latest developer questions, and they addressed an operator question with regard to their 2nd nerf, and seemed to really slam the door on that one; bad vibe, almost like they are sick of the qq and responding sharply. Anyone with specifics on why there are viable specs for sorcs in rated wzs please respond. Please do not reply with the general statements that everything is fine, I know that comes up in every other thread, but if you want to state anything please have specific details justifiying your position. Thanks for all comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hell, if they are sick of the QQ, maybe they should actually share some of their metrics and reasoning. Thus far all we have to go on is the calculated and observed output of each of the classes, and those are pretty grim when it comes to balance concerns. If we knew more about what their "target" was for each, the changes might be a bit easier to swallow (assuming their targets are at all sane). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodelfdude Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 thanks for the thoughts... I'm losing confidence in the developers, I wish somebody with a rational argument would at least rationalize the cross tree nerfs. Reading around, it seems other classes are upset also, is there some chance that the nerfs are broad enough where the pvp balance won't be as grim as if we were the only class nerfed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allyhoo Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 thanks for the thoughts... I'm losing confidence in the developers, I wish somebody with a rational argument would at least rationalize the cross tree nerfs. Reading around, it seems other classes are upset also, is there some chance that the nerfs are broad enough where the pvp balance won't be as grim as if we were the only class nerfed? Sure there is definitely a chance of that...I think the biggest problem in regards to all the nerfs (not just the nerfs to sorc/sage) is that BW is not letting enough people test them on the PTS and as such we won't really know how things play out until this mess of an update goes live. The silence from the devs is also troubling...as was said earlier, if they would share their decision making process with us a bit more, things would probably be easier to swallow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodelfdude Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 Sure there is definitely a chance of that...I think the biggest problem in regards to all the nerfs (not just the nerfs to sorc/sage) is that BW is not letting enough people test them on the PTS and as such we won't really know how things play out until this mess of an update goes live. The silence from the devs is also troubling...as was said earlier, if they would share their decision making process with us a bit more, things would probably be easier to swallow. ok, thanks for the clarity and perspective. The two things I'm taking out of this thread at this point: - wait and see, our class performance is relative to other classes, so we really have to wait and see - learn to dot and kite, that is the only viable pvp spec I'm still not going to add my cc back to my account... if they release on 4/17 I'll have two days to decide if I can adjust to the game play or not (I don't really care about the $15, I've been paying blizard for over 5 years), it's the principal of the thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VainEldritch Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Hell, if they are sick of the QQ, maybe they should actually share some of their metrics and reasoning. Thus far all we have to go on is the calculated and observed output of each of the classes, and those are pretty grim when it comes to balance concerns. If we knew more about what their "target" was for each, the changes might be a bit easier to swallow (assuming their targets are at all sane). You wont get it. Right now they are hunkering down in der Devbunker and passing out the helmets and an extra ration of rum for the men awaiting the 1.2 drop. But I think you mentioned something that bothers me in just about every MMORPG I've played: "target" performance. I really was hoping, after hearing about how exacting BW were going to be with all the metrics they have access to, that when changes were made to game balance we would be given some kind of insight to the thoughts of the developers regarding their goals for said changes. I'm pulling up another Sorc now on a more populated server - he is level 32 and I'm leveling with PvP so I have a very good grasp of current utility, damage and healing so when the patch drops I'll very quickly see just how it affects lower level gameplay. Oh well, at the end of the day my philosophy on this dead simple: if it does alter the class play to apoint that I don't enjoy it, I'll stop giving them my money. Simple as that. I will be watching with great interest from my Abaddon in New Eden... the only MMORPG I would never leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) I will be watching with great interest from my Abaddon in New Eden... the only MMORPG I would never leave. <3 my Tengu Edited April 11, 2012 by Daellia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PutinDoesJudo Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) I wonder if people are factoring in the fact that our BM and War Hero gear will have the correct stats in 1.2. As of now, we have to swap in IA Champ glove enhancements(power-surge) to get the most out of things, but this is already done for us in 1.2. So, if you haven't already got BM gear with the correct enhancements than you will receive a big boost to the damage you typically do ingame anyway, regardless of nerf. I doubt a lot of the scare mongors on this forum are even in BM gear to begin with though. :/ Edited April 11, 2012 by PutinDoesJudo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VainEldritch Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 <3 my Tengu I'm scared of Tengus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzur Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Well, I've been playing madness spec on my Sorc throughout leveling and into lvl 50 pvp. I'm completely BM geared, use relics, stims and so on during warzones. While I'm not wielding the biggest guns or burst damage skills.. I have learned how viable the Madness line can be when using the skills correctly. Keep em slowed .. keep on kiting.. stack those dots and don't rely on spamming force lightning. Death field is your best friend along with wraith + crushing darkness. With gear changes having correct stats more viable to the sorc class... Madness tree is not really going to be affected that much if any at all... little lower crit chance if looking at the skills when your spending your points but after gear stat changes are in affect.. damage should be more. Don't forget that the sorcerer is a utility class ... wasn't meant for you to go out there and melt everything you see. Anyhow, I'll be sticking with the madness spec myself and not going to worry too much about the changes being made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikeryo Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) who said that sorc is a utility class? did I miss something? we got two damage trees, so when I spend my point in those trees I expect to deal damage. e.g. when I spec 31 turret lightning I want to deal the damage a grav round / tracer missile spammer does. Edited April 11, 2012 by Rikeryo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodelfdude Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Don't forget that the sorcerer is a utility class ... wasn't meant for you to go out there and melt everything you see. .. I hate statements like this.... please show me where this is stated? I'm glad to hear people that enjoy playing DOT style play are not impacted by our class being forced to play DOT style, what a profound recognition. Thanks for your valuable and insightfull contributios to the discusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodelfdude Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 (edited) who said that sorc is a utility class? did I miss something? we got two damage trees, so when I spend my point in those trees I expect to do deal damage. e.g. when I spec 31 turret lightning I want to deal the damage a grav round / tracer missile spammer does. I agree, I don't see "support class" anywhere; making a statement with all certainty as if it's an absolute undeniable fact that sorcs are a support class is naive, at best. Edited April 11, 2012 by bloodelfdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzur Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Feels like a support class to me... Sorcerers are not effective solo... you gotta be with another player to be effective. We do not have 8 second stuns, we get (4 seconds) We do not have quick burst damage, our big hitter is over time and can be interrupted We do not have 12 second slows, we get (4 seconds) I could list more but you get the picture i hope... Now some of us are better skilled at playing our sorcs than others and so on. When I find myself in situations where I'm trying to take out a lone target separated from their group (or they got me separated from mine), my effectivness against that player all depends on their class, their gear, and their own skill. But unless I'm fighting another sorcerer or sage, we are out gunned, out stunned, and out snared in most of those encounters. SO.... since we cannot effectivly solo like the other 7 classes.... that leaves us having to have support with us or running as support with someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzur Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Anyhow, straying off from the OP subject here.... I would suggest Madness spec post 1.2 patch. I enjoy the spec. I wish the class had little bit more in some areas but its still fun to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodelfdude Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 well, I don't consider group dps support necessarily, but if you define 1v1 as what defines support, then ok, I just don't consider that what makes it. 31 point madness seems like an obvoius choice, but 23-0-18 is tempting to try; I will have to learn to kite I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 We do not have 8 second stuns, we get (4 seconds) We do not have quick burst damage, our big hitter is over time and can be interrupted We do not have 12 second slows, we get (4 seconds) Name a class that does get an 8 second stun, seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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