Communication regarding sage/sorc nerfs 1.2

[Frozenshiva]

The sense of entitlement is not in any way ridiculous. I pay and in return am entitled to certain utility (in this case, fun.) If I dont receive said utility, I stop paying. I do not owe Bioware an explanation of why I stopped paying, or a coherent suggestion as to how they might be able to retain me as a customer, or... anything really.

I dont owe them anything.

They owe me utility for my $15.

It is them who must entice me to continue to pay, not I who must entice them to entice me to pay. THAT idea is ridiculous.

 

Wrong.

You pay so you are entitled to limited access to a monthly subscription based game.

You get exactly what you pay for. Access to the game and what it offers.

The "FUN" you are talking about is first and foremost subjective. Whether you personally like what you are getting or not, is a completely unrelated and different story.

 

Next you say you do not owe Bioware an explanation... this one boggles my mind.... If you don't owe them any explanation...then why do they? More so, why even waste your time and ours by telling us you're unsubscribing? You'll be gone anyway.

 

Third on the line, it's called feedback. Every company or business asks for feedback in one form or another. Whether you personally accept that or not is not in question here.

 

In order to improve on a product, you need feedback. But not any feedback will do.

"this X sucks, you guys are bad at this" is not feedback, much less so a constructive one.

 

It's not your job to offer them feedback, same as it is not their job to listen to your wishes. Yet they try and do it anyway.(which in all truth is why games end up failing big time- listening to players) Where's YOUR part on the compromise? Oh right...your 15 bucks.

 

The company offered you a certain item that they believe is worth the 15 dollars (lol... complaining about dollars when so many people pay a heavier currency).

There are 2 courses of action you as a paying costumer take if you don't like what they offer.

1. Stop paying.

2. Offer feedback on what they can do better for those precious dollars of yours.

 

Thing is, most people don't give a rat's *** about making the game better, they just want it better without lifting a finger. Then go make a game yourself you masters degree game designer and come back telling me how much a cakewalk it was. You have to take decisions that impact the entire player-base. But obviously you know that since you worked on so many games. Actually it's not even limited to games. This holds true for any business environment or community oriented project.

 

All things considered, MMO gaming is one of the cheapest forms of social entertainment out there right now. You are getting your money worth of entertainment in no time at all.

I find it ridiculous that you think 50cents a day is a huge money sink. Heck even the entire value of 15 is ridiculously low. Go out one night a week to a club or something and you probably end up wasting 4 times as much.

 

Just because people are being ignorant about it does not make it any less true.

 

Honestly, if you find feedback a ridiculous idea, you really need to analyze the world around you a little.

[LordArioc]

Wrong.

You pay so you are entitled to limited access to a monthly subscription based game.

You get exactly what you pay for. Access to the game and what it offers.

The "FUN" you are talking about is first and foremost subjective. Whether you personally like what you are getting or not, is a completely unrelated and different story.

 

Like I said, after that month, Im free to stop paying. I dont need to articulate why.

 

Next you say you do not owe Bioware an explanation... this one boggles my mind.... If you don't owe them any explanation...then why do they?

 

Because they are trying to part me from my money.

 

More so, why even waste your time and ours by telling us you're unsubscribing? You'll be gone anyway.

I did not. I responded to the idea that I owe BW a well worded expression of my needs. I do not.

 

 

Third on the line, it's called feedback. Every company or business asks for feedback in one form or another. Whether you personally accept that or not is not in question here.

 

Like I said, what BW asks for, or needs, is none of my concern. They don't like it? Ill stop paying.

 

 

It's not your job to offer them feedback, same as it is not their job to listen to your wishes. Yet they try and do it anyway.(which in all truth is why games end up failing big time- listening to players) Where's YOUR part on the compromise? Oh right...your 15 bucks.

 

Yes, exactly. I know you were being sarcastic, and want this to be some grand familial two way street, but it isnt.

As an aside (and this is truly besides the point) perhaps if BW were more willing to communicate with me, I might be more willing to communicate with them in the hopes of a better outcome for all (which I think is what you are driving at.) But they arent.

 

 

The company offered you a certain item that they believe is worth the 15 dollars (lol... complaining about dollars when so many people pay a heavier currency).

There are 2 courses of action you as a paying costumer take if you don't like what they offer.

1. Stop paying.

2. Offer feedback on what they can do better for those precious dollars of yours.

 

Thing is, most people don't give a rat's *** about making the game better, they just want it better without lifting a finger. Then go make a game yourself you masters degree game designer and come back telling me how much a cakewalk it was. You have to take decisions that impact the entire player-base. But obviously you know that since you worked on so many games. Actually it's not even limited to games. This holds true for any business environment or community oriented project.

 

Yes, exactly. I dont want to lift a finger. In fact, I am a software engineer working on enterprise level client server systems whose general architecture is similar to MMOs (its not a game, though.) I make that kind of system function well at work. At play, I dont feel like doing it. At play, I simply want to play. If BW cant provide that, then I cant provide them with any funds. Sure, I could go above and beyond my responsibility and attempt to help make the game better, but I dont want to. My point was that I am not obligated to do so, as was suggested in this thread.

 

All things considered, MMO gaming is one of the cheapest forms of social entertainment out there right now. You are getting your money worth of entertainment in no time at all.

I find it ridiculous that you think 50cents a day is a huge money sink. Heck even the entire value of 15 is ridiculously low. Go out one night a week to a club or something and you probably end up wasting 4 times as much.

 

Yes, its cheap. No, I dont buy something just because its cheap.

 

Honestly, if you find feedback a ridiculous idea, you really need to analyze the world around you a little.

Again, I was criticizing the idea that I owe it to BW to concisely and coherently articulate my needs. I dont.

[bloodelfdude]

Wrong.

You pay so you are entitled to limited access to a monthly subscription based game.

You get exactly what you pay for. Access to the game and what it offers.

The "FUN" you are talking about is first and foremost subjective. Whether you personally like what you are getting or not, is a completely unrelated and different story.

.

 

any company would love to have more customers like this guy... I personally will always be teh entitled customer. I just fired my lawn service for not blowing the front porch of grass clippings for two weeks in a row, I know it's bold of me to have such high expectations and entitlement... but my wife nagged me to sweep the porch myself... hard to believe I already found a new company to take my business.... and no, I didn't tell the why, I compalained after the first occurence, fired on the 2nd.... and of course I will trash talk them to my neighbors to assure they don't get business... too bad we don't have a neighborhood forum

Edited April 10, 2012 by bloodelfdude

[Daellia]

Arioc, you're not seeming to get it. You are paying 15$ for one month's access to the services they are providing. It is up to you, the customer, to evaluate whether you believe the services they are providing are worth 15$ to you. If they are not, you may choose not to pay, as every customer may.

 

The business does not owe you a better product, just as you owe them no explanation as for why you chose to or not to purchase it from them. However, if you want the product to improve, you owe it to yourself to make a meaningful effort to help it do so. Simply complaining that the product is not worth the price is not productive (unless you're trying to affect the price, which you are not). If you wish some features of the product to change, you must articulate that desire in a way that communicates it properly and clearly to the producer if you want them to be able to act on that desire. You must do this, not because you owe that to the company, but because you owe that to yourself if you are wanting a better product from that company instead of simply finding and using an alternative product.

 

Aside from contractual obligations, there exists no unspoken debt in the business environment. Business provides product, priced at what they believe is an ideal price for optimizing total profits (which usually involves optimizing both volume and magnitude of sale), customers evaluate the product and decide if the benefit they'll derive from the product matches or exceeds the given price, and either buys it or not. The business owes the customer nothing after that point (excluding contractual obligations or offers like warranties, discounts, sustained service, etc), they have no requirement or even commitment to improve their product any further, just as the customer has no obligation to continue purchasing products from that business. Commerce is by definition a string of one-off purchases. The sooner you learn this principle, the easier a time you'll have in this world.

 

Basically, by submitting feedback to a company about their products, you are investing in that company. Not money, but time. You are investing your time into that company in the hopes of them using that feedback to improve their products in a way you desire. Like all investments, this entails some risk, and the business may just throw away your investment on uselessness. Still, like a true monetary investment, the higher the quality and liquidity of your feedback, the more the company can do with it and the more the company is likely to do with it. You, as the customer, must evaluate whether you believe this product is worth that investment (and the risk associated with it). The company owes you no guarantee of return on that investment, the chance of that return (and the magnitude of the loss if there is no return) is up to you, the investor, to evaluate. No debt, to owes, no dues. It's all business.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Daellia

[Frozenshiva]

Why? It is not the consumer's job to accurately, legibly, concisely, or even coherently communicate his or her desires. It is the producer's job to fulfill them.

 

This is how it started.

 

You answered to my reply initially regarding the "feedback" provided.

It was about people giving feedback in general. Mainly people who think they are giving feedback when they are not.

You continue with a most unusual line.

It's not your job to communicate your desires, but its the producers job to fulfill them?

You say you work with what again? Software? And how exactly do you know what kind of software you need to make or how to improve upon it? You read minds or something? There really is no way to improve on a design without PROPER feedback. You SHOULD know that. Bad feedback, or no feedback, lead to a bad product.

 

Trial and error is not improvement in this case, it's a war of attrition.

 

Now to your last reply.

You are right, you don't need to articulate why you stop paying. That being said, you don't need to articulate it at all. It's obvious to them enough from the canceled subscription. That is my issue with " i stop paying" posts. To make matters worse they add "feedback" to the reason they quit, that in fact is no feedback at all.

 

Their job is to give feedback so you keep on paying. Fair enough. But how come when they do give feedback, people always find something to complain? I honestly don't even know why i have to explain this.

 

My main gripe with this one is the fact that, previous experience in the matter, states, that no amount of feedback, no matter how large on the producers part, is enough to satisfy the customer. The customer always demands more.

Even when the feedback that comes from the producers addresses the issue, the player, most often than not, will ignore what they said based on their own "knowledge". Hence the mention of ignorance in my earlier post. Players think they know what drives a game and how it works when all they know is what they personally like.

 

This is an MMO, not a custom made game for one persons own unique taste. The target is many people with different tastes. I'm using fictional numbers here, but statistically you'd only need to have say... 50% of the whole game enticing to a person to make it "successful". You want to satisfy as many people as possible but it's not the objective. What you do want though is to make sure the people that do stick with you, can keep being satisfied.

 

I'm sure you'd be extremely happy yourself if people were to use your app and say "This app is ****, the guy who made it is lousy at this, (insert other extremely "useful" comments here) he should learn how its done." Good luck improving on it when you don't know what needs improving.

 

 

My point with the price was mostly to focus on the matter of satisfaction per "buck" you get out of it. I'm not saying to keep on paying for it because it's cheap. I'm saying, as long as that 15bucks can be justified, i don't see where the issue lies. The thing to note here is that the 15 bucks have to be put in perspective with whatever else you can do with it.

If i have to choose between going out one more time each month(club movie or w/e) or having a source of entertainment for the entire month, as long as i play it at least say.... 15 hours, it's far more efficient to pay for the subscription.

The way i personally see it at least, it's not about what this game offers for my 15 bucks a month, but what else can i get for that money that offers as much entertainment and is available as broadly.

 

 

But as i said: The issue I'm addressing isn't the fact that people are unsubscribing. I'm perfectly ok with it and the developers are probably too (to an extent). If you don't like something you shouldn't stick to it like glue just because.There's a reason we have the term "target audience".

My issue is the unfounded remarks and the people that think they are smart and knowledgeable when they are not.

 

Those kind of posts only create a false image for the game. It makes the game look worse than it actually is for the newcomers. And why I do wish people were their own masters when it comes to decisions they take and don't act like sheep most of the time, the truth is many people rely heavily on what other people say regardless if it's true or not. Every time people fling " I unsubscribe" posts around (or similar) someone will be sent away from the game with them. Not because the game might be bad for them as well, but because they don't want to take the chance. The fact that many people don't put enough effort into their research also doesn't help. People will rather listen to a guy telling them it's not worth it, than to check it out themselves (either through videos or screenshots or game play footage or w/e)

 

As a wise man once said.. "It's ok to not like things, but don't be a dick about it."

 

Note: In case it wasn't obvious.. that's a generic "you".

[bloodelfdude]

 

Every time people fling " I unsubscribe" posts around (or similar) someone will be sent away from the game with them. .[/quote

 

Game reputation is part of EA / BW marketing, that is good incentive to not piss off your customer base, I support negative feedback where appropriate. If it has influence then the issue is large enough, if it doesn't have enough impact to get BWs attention, then it won't have the impact you suggest.

 

The fact that the nerf issue may or may not be exaggerated and many of the people posting don't understand all the mechanics to support the negativity is also the fault of BW not managing this properly. Then again, maybe they will lose 1% but gain 10% customers from the cool videos and marketing propaganda, sounds acceptable to me from a business perspective, and it would be hard to argue against it being managed properly, sure 1% were pissed, not bad overall though.

Edited April 10, 2012 by bloodelfdude

[LordArioc]

Daellia, I get it. Providing articulate feedback could make the product better. It could also be whistling in the wind.

Luckily, as the consumer in the relationship, Im free to do either.

My original objection was to the post that adamantly blames the lack of quality in the product on the inarticulate consumer, rather than where it belongs: on the producer.

[LordArioc]

This is how it started.

 

It's not your job to communicate your desires, but its the producers job to fulfill them?

You say you work with what again? Software? And how exactly do you know what kind of software you need to make or how to improve upon it? You read minds or something?

 

Im so glad you asked. We spend TONS of time and money on gleaning this information from our users. We have multiple departments approaching this topic from different angles (business needs, technical needs, financial needs, etc.) We place the CEOs of our customers (we sell to businesses, not individuals) on our board. We throw them parties. We hire their former workers.

We do everything for them. Because they are paying the bills, and at any given moment, they might say, "You suck, see ya."

 

Trial and error is not improvement in this case, it's a war of attrition.

Agreed. Putting up an internet forum and then systematically ignoring it isnt improvement either.

 

Now to your last reply.

You are right, you don't need to articulate why you stop paying. That being said, you don't need to articulate it at all. It's obvious to them enough from the canceled subscription. That is my issue with " i stop paying" posts. To make matters worse they add "feedback" to the reason they quit, that in fact is no feedback at all.

 

Yeah, this we agree on. Those posts are pretty useless. When I moved my auto-re-sub from 3 months to 1, I didnt tell anyone (until now, I guess.)

 

Their job is to give feedback so you keep on paying. Fair enough. But how come when they do give feedback, people always find something to complain? I honestly don't even know why i have to explain this.

 

Is this rhetorical? You are asking why people complain? For the same reason water is wet, I suppose.

 

My main gripe with this one is the fact that, previous experience in the matter, states, that no amount of feedback, no matter how large on the producers part, is enough to satisfy the customer. The customer always demands more.

Even when the feedback that comes from the producers addresses the issue, the player, most often than not, will ignore what they said based on their own "knowledge". Hence the mention of ignorance in my earlier post. Players think they know what drives a game and how it works when all they know is what they personally like.

That may be true... I dont know. I do know that so far we've received zero explanation for the DPS changes, and one, IMHO rather sparse, explanation for the healing changes. There is a party in this relationship that is not living up to his end of the so called "communication-deal," but it isnt the consumer.

 

This is an MMO, not a custom made game for one persons own unique taste. The target is many people with different tastes. I'm using fictional numbers here, but statistically you'd only need to have say... 50% of the whole game enticing to a person to make it "successful". You want to satisfy as many people as possible but it's not the objective. What you do want though is to make sure the people that do stick with you, can keep being satisfied.

 

Im not quite sure what you are driving at here. So, you are saying, BW doesnt care about my feedback because Im expendable?

 

I'm sure you'd be extremely happy yourself if people were to use your app and say "This app is ****, the guy who made it is lousy at this, (insert other extremely "useful" comments here) he should learn how its done." Good luck improving on it when you don't know what needs improving.

Well... I in particular am in a very competitive business. My customers in particular wouldnt even waste their breath on telling me my product sucks. Theyd just go elsewhere. (In fact, our customers sometimes go elsewhere and lie about why. They are REALLY entitled. Heh.) Thus the monumental effort I described above.

My industry is an admittedly extreme example, but, BW could take a page from our book, which is what this thread is about. Its asking for SOME communication.

 

My point with the price was mostly to focus on the matter of satisfaction per "buck" you get out of it. I'm not saying to keep on paying for it because it's cheap. I'm saying, as long as that 15bucks can be justified, i don't see where the issue lies. The thing to note here is that the 15 bucks have to be put in perspective with whatever else you can do with it.

If i have to choose between going out one more time each month(club movie or w/e) or having a source of entertainment for the entire month, as long as i play it at least say.... 15 hours, it's far more efficient to pay for the subscription.

The way i personally see it at least, it's not about what this game offers for my 15 bucks a month, but what else can i get for that money that offers as much entertainment and is available as broadly.

 

I understand. But for every seemingly useless/expensive thing you can do with 15 bucks, you can do something thats a good deal... say... rent something like 20 movies from Netflix.

Look, Im not disagreeing with you on this point. MMOs are in general a great deal. But there are other great entertainment deals out there (including other MMOs.)

 

 

But as i said: The issue I'm addressing isn't the fact that people are unsubscribing. I'm perfectly ok with it and the developers are probably too (to an extent). If you don't like something you shouldn't stick to it like glue just because.There's a reason we have the term "target audience".

My issue is the unfounded remarks and the people that think they are smart and knowledgeable when they are not.

 

Those kind of posts only create a false image for the game. It makes the game look worse than it actually is for the newcomers. And why I do wish people were their own masters when it comes to decisions they take and don't act like sheep most of the time, the truth is many people rely heavily on what other people say regardless if it's true or not. Every time people fling " I unsubscribe" posts around (or similar) someone will be sent away from the game with them. Not because the game might be bad for them as well, but because they don't want to take the chance. The fact that many people don't put enough effort into their research also doesn't help. People will rather listen to a guy telling them it's not worth it, than to check it out themselves (either through videos or screenshots or game play footage or w/e)

 

As a wise man once said.. "It's ok to not like things, but don't be a dick about it."

 

Note: In case it wasn't obvious.. that's a generic "you".

 

Yeah, Im not advocating for being a vocal dick. But I seriously disagree with you about who shoulders the (most, vast majority of the) responsibility for making a successful product in this relationship.

 

 

EDIT: BW did throw that guild summit thing, so, kudos there.

Edited April 10, 2012 by LordArioc

[Rotoroot]

BW isnt going to fix anything or listen to the players. The game is in a tailspin and first major patch hasnt even been released. Its interesting to see.

[Frozenshiva]

If i sounded like the entire blame is on the customer than my mistake.

 

It was never the intent, and i think for the most part i did point it out relatively clear.

 

My focus was mainly to show the difference in perspective between players and devs.

Yes Bioware has a lot to talk about and fix. I don't deny this and vehemently agree that a lot of changes are still needed to make this game better. The point I'm mostly trying to make is that for most reasons players bring up for something, quite often they are blatantly ignoring another.

 

In the first paragraph you also confirmed one of the points i made. You do get feedback, regardless of method. I'd say it's also related to the business at hand that you are in. Some of the steps you take for feedback might already have been taken in this regard here as well, or it was not, or it was not possible. That isn't the thing i was referring to however.

The point i was trying to get across was that feedback is an extremely important step of development. Feedback can make or break a product.

 

"Im not quite sure what you are driving at here. So, you are saying, BW doesnt care about my feedback because Im expendable? "

 

Exactly the contrary. I'm saying they value your feedback. They want your feedback and they check the feedback. You are not expendable. No player is. But players leaving, as part of a business, are after all numbers. And when you calculate your numbers you always take that loss into consideration.

The objective is to get the target number of subscribers. As an example. If your initial target for profit after covering expenses is 1mil subscribers and you get 2 mil you're happy and satisfied. You don't want people to leave obviously, but your first target was 1mil. Obviously you will try to keep the 2 mil, but any business man knows that's not possible. People come and go. Some leave, new come and you might grow bigger or smaller at the end.

What your actual target is at this point, is to keep your sub number above 1 mil (or whatever your current target is if it changed). As long as you manage that, the product is successful. So at this point your target is to satisfy those at the expense of others if it's the case.

It sounds "rough" saying it like that, but that is the truth.

 

Which brings me to the last point i would like to address on the matter.

As previously mentioned you want good feedback. The forums are partially in place just because of that. Most of the parts of the forum are for discussing the game in general. Forums focus mainly on being an information center as well as a social hub in the grander scheme. One could argue that there is room for improvement when it comes developer feedback, and I'd even go as far as agree with you.

But there is one thing that quite often is the main reason for the lack of it.

And that is in fact... player feedback.

It's actually quite the round robin.

 

Players complain- devs may want to fix it but don't have the feedback they need- players complain about lack of reply- devs reply- players complain about the answer- dev try using numbers in-house - player are smart and find work around to screw the numbers (voluntarily and involuntarily) - improper fixes are applied - players scream.

 

And the whole cycle starts over.

 

An mmo is a never ending product that only really becomes "finished" when it gets closed, and even then the product is technically not finished.

That's what sets the mmo-industry apart from most businesses.

You can't and won't ever have a perfect/finished product (this is what i was referring to by 50% enticing in my earlier post).

What you can to is improve upon it.

But improvement has to be founded, and without the proper feedback you can't improve the product. You can only CHANGE it.

There's also the thing that no matter how you look at it, devs and players are not really the same. The devs see the game one way the players another.

 

Players are many with different play-styles and different views. If feedback is provided correctly, things that the dev's can't "see" can be brought to their attention. Which leads back to my initial paragraph about perspective. Developers are just as perspective blocked sometimes as the player. It's the feedback that can shift their perspective.

 

One last thing i wanted to touch upon was the thing you mentioned about the lack of communication on the dev's part.

One very often seen and recurring pattern is that (as mentioned in the earlier post) many players are ignorant in regards to their surroundings.

When you see 20 topics on the same issue, see a reply from a dev that is completely mangled without any foundation, same issues reported in hundreds of tickets you can probably see better why replies can be scarce.

It is not as much the lack of feedback from the devs as it is the fact that people either:

1. Not getting the answer THEY want (irrelevant of the fact that it might or might not be good for the game)

2. Not getting an answer when they want.

3. Not getting an answer personally (see 20 topics on the same issue, where people all demand an answer.)

 

If we help them we actually help ourselves.

Personally I'd prefer to see the forums cleaner from all the rubbish and 20 more or less identical topics.

Yes i know it's not our job. It's theirs. But when you want fast replies, yet all you do is flood them with inconsistent and useless threads, you're actually forcing them into searching for feedback in a sea of insanity. It just slows them down in finding the feedback thus the communication is slowed as well.

It's easy to point the finger at the devs, but players really should start pointing at themselves as well. It's called being aware.

 

/sigh ... Just look at the comment before this one and see what i mean.

[Daellia]

Daellia, I get it. Providing articulate feedback could make the product better. It could also be whistling in the wind.

Luckily, as the consumer in the relationship, Im free to do either.

My original objection was to the post that adamantly blames the lack of quality in the product on the inarticulate consumer, rather than where it belongs: on the producer.

 

Indeed, the producer is in fact responsible for the final quality of the product. No one else can directly affect it, actually, except perhaps the suppliers of the intermediate goods they used in the crafting of the product (but then again, it's their responsibility to evaluate and select those suppliers properly, as they are then the customer).

 

The major gripe I was addressing was the notorious habit people have out here on the forums of complaining about a product without providing any useful feedback. It's wasted space and time, nothing more. If a customer is dissatisfied with the product or service they are getting for their money, said customer should either provide quality feedback to the company (investing their time into the company on the hope that the company will listen and improve the product), or discontinue their business relationship with said company.

 

Complaining about a product without providing any valid feedback, and without discontinuing the business relationship, provides a discordant response to the company. They hear complaining, but with no details, and they are still getting money. Thus they usually do nothing, or perhaps make a limited effort to try to discern the source of the complaints. If that effort fails, they shrug and keep collecting the cash.

 

As someone pointed out above, however, a company can't improve their product unless they know what is wrong with it. Internal testing and evaluation only go so far. Complaining about a product, and even discontinuing business with that company, with no feedback at all, doesn't help anyone. Sure, you're no longer paying for a product that you don't feel is worth the price being asked for it, but you've also lost the chance of helping the business convert it into a product that would be worth the price, in your eyes. The business loses out, because they get less money for their product, and you lose out, because you don't gain the utility increase inherent in a smart purchase.

 

Helping a company improve a product, if they are willing to listen, is generally superior to simply cutting and running, and both are superior to simply b*tching about a product while you continue to buy it.

[LordArioc]

Sure, in an idealized situation, producer and consumer have an excellent dialogue with free flowing ideas in both directions.

That situation does not exist here. There is no dialogue between the users and the devs. On the PTS forum there are many thousands of posts that span weeks of time regarding this issue, without a single response from BW.

The consumer more than fulfilled his responsibility in this supposed dialogue(which, as was my earlier point, is significantly lower than the producer's.)

The producer is not nearly meeting his obligation.

 

So again, I am left flabbergasted that anyone would deride a user for being inarticulate rather than focusing your derision where it belongs: firmly on the producer.

[LordArioc]

 

In the first paragraph you also confirmed one of the points i made. You do get feedback, regardless of method. I'd say it's also related to the business at hand that you are in. Some of the steps you take for feedback might already have been taken in this regard here as well, or it was not, or it was not possible. That isn't the thing i was referring to however.

The point i was trying to get across was that feedback is an extremely important step of development. Feedback can make or break a product.

 

I just want to point out that, yes, we get feedback, and yes, it improves our product, but no we do not take the attitude that the customer "owes" us feedback. We take the attitude that any such feedback is something we need to earn.

This seems distinctly at odds with this:

 

Just ONCE I'd want to see a "quitter" give actual concise smart and well thought reasons for quitting.

 

Or, oh... say... this:

To put it bluntly, that's just not true.

 

Our own testers (internal and contracted) can run the Flashpoint just fine, as can all other classes that have a healer role.

 

Flat out calling the feedback provider a liar. Sound like a company that is interested in the dialogue you describe?

[Daellia]

Sure, in an idealized situation, producer and consumer have an excellent dialogue with free flowing ideas in both directions.

That situation does not exist here. There is no dialogue between the users and the devs. On the PTS forum there are many thousands of posts that span weeks of time regarding this issue, without a single response from BW.

The consumer more than fulfilled his responsibility in this supposed dialogue(which, as was my earlier point, is significantly lower than the producer's.)

The producer is not nearly meeting his obligation.

 

So again, I am left flabbergasted that anyone would deride a user for being inarticulate rather than focusing your derision where it belongs: firmly on the producer.

 

You're right, if the producer isn't listening, than it doesn't matter how eloquent or well-written your request, nothing will come of it. They doesn't excuse endless complaining with a complete of effort in at least trying to give properly and useful feedback. If all you're going to do is worthlessly complain, you might as well just unsubscribe. EA at least pays attention to subscription numbers.

 

Flat out calling the feedback provider a liar. Sound like a company that is interested in the dialogue you describe?

 

I'll be honest, Georg is a fair portion of the reason this game is going downhill so fast. He refuses to acknowledge that the community may have useful ideas, or may be able to identify issues that his internal team hasn't. He regards the player base as financial assets, not as a resource. Everything I've seen from Georgy tells me he's going to squeeze this game so hard due to his pride that the game will simply fall apart, like sand through his fingers.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Daellia

[AgitatedTheGreat]

Getting nerfed is for the best. Think of it as a self sacrifice, you are all doing it for the good of man kind. NERF BAT! BA BOOM!

[shegoy]

Well theres one thing that will come out of the nerf. When all those who told us to quit complaining and we needed it realise they Actualy need us sorcs, oh well tough poo.

 

But yes BW could do with offering a proper explanation of why they feel certain class changes are justified

Edited April 10, 2012 by shegoy

[JAVAjedi]

*Looks at Dev Tracker*

 

Did Bioware seriously just announce the release date of 1.2 to be two days from now? What have they done to address the concerns of this thread? They've barely acknowledged its existence for exceeding the page limit! That's not nearly enough time to fix the vast number of issues with the class and test the changes... is it?

[Daellia]

*Looks at Dev Tracker*

 

Did Bioware seriously just announce the release date of 1.2 to be two days from now? What have they done to address the concerns of this thread? They've barely acknowledged its existence for exceeding the page limit! That's not nearly enough time to fix the vast number of issues with the class and test the changes... is it?

 

I'd say that's indication that they aren't going to be fixing said issues or addressing said concerned, actually.

[shegoy]

Aye they did and yes agree we have more than likely been brushed under the carpet.

Sombody on the pts forum already has stated 1.2 could do with another 2-3 weeks testing as we are likely going to end up with a buggy patch needing prob 10+ more smaller patches to fix anything.