Watchman Rotation Reduced to 1 Macro Ownage

[JustinxDuff]

A macro is not dynamic enough for this class. Maybe for a very simple rotation but I can guarantee I do better without one.

 

I only use 2 macros with my sidewinder:

 

1 key press to pop both my relic and adrenal

1 key press to pop undying rage and my medpack at the same time

 

Other than his the macros would be too restrictive. This is how I feel about it and I am in now way trying to put down people that use them. The way I play my class and the way my pre-made is in WZs I do not like macros.

Just as I think that players that use 3rd party communication software are giving themselves a massive advantage - that is not necessarily available for their opponents and not included in the game, but somehow this is more accepted...

Not really a fair comparison. VoIP is meant to reinforce team play and many more people access to it over macros. Macros on the other hand automate your character for you which means you are letting it, for the most part, play the game for you.

Edited April 25, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[Maskius]

Justin, if I can do 30% better over the course of a wz and have consistently done so for perhaps a thousand played - why shouldnt you be able to?

 

Perhaps the macro's you have tried (if any) have been simplified rotation macros? Allthough, those alone should give you a boost as well.

The more a given class makes use of "chance to reset cooldown" skills, special situational skills, skills that work outside global cooldown and strong low cooldown abilities - the more boost a macro will provide. This is simply because, you cannot, as a human react with the speed of a macro. Before you have moved your finger to the respective button that needs to be pressed, a good macro will have tried to press it at least 20 times.

 

And the thing about macros is 'playing the game for you' cliche - well, I suppose those that drive a car with automatic gear in contrast to those with manual, is also feeling that the car is being driven for them - they can just sit back and take a nap, right?

Because keeping an eye on, and pressing 20+ buttons, is what 'playing the game' is all about. Surely not battlefield awareness, tactical positioning and general teamplay skills...

 

Not really a fair comparison. VoIP is meant to reinforce team play and many more people access to it over macros. Macros on the other hand automate your character for you which means you are letting it, for the most part, play the game for you.

 

I agree, it is not a fair comparision, because VoIP is a much more massive balance breaker. If you have access to instant verbal communication and the other team does not, you have a huge advantage - and I mean huge. That is not balance, if Bioware wanted teams to clash it out on even terms, they should have included VoIP in pvp ops - like many other competetive games have done.

I would even dare claim that this is the largest factor in all the issues people have with premades, you can have a well balanced pug, but if you face a premade - who will almost always be on some sort of VoIP system, you will most likely lose.

 

The point about VoIP being easily available is odd. It is not a part of the game - its a 3rd party software. Just because it is easy to obtain doesnt justfiy anything, and I think you know this. Would my point be more valid if VoIP software was more expensive? Only worked on Windows XP? or some other factor that made it less accessable.

 

Besides, how would your coordinate a pug fast into a VoIP solution?

 

Regards

Mask

Edited April 26, 2012 by Maskius

[JustinxDuff]

Justin, if I can do 30% better over the course of a wz and have consistently done so for perhaps a thousand played - why shouldnt you be able to?

 

Perhaps the macro's you have tried (if any) have been simplified rotation macros? Allthough, those alone should give you a boost as well.

The more a given class makes use of "chance to reset cooldown" skills, special situational skills, skills that work outside global cooldown and strong low cooldown abilities - the more boost a macro will provide. This is simply because, you cannot, as a human react with the speed of a macro. Before you have moved your finger to the respective button that needs to be pressed, a good macro will have tried to press it at least 20 times.

 

And the thing about macros is 'playing the game for you' cliche - well, I suppose those that drive a car with automatic gear in contrast to those with manual, is also feeling that the car is being driven for them - they can just sit back and take a nap, right?

Because keeping an eye on, and pressing 20+ buttons, is what 'playing the game' is all about. Surely not battlefield awareness, tactical positioning and general teamplay skills...

 

 

 

I agree, it is not a fair comparision, because VoIP is a much more massive balance breaker. If you have access to instant verbal communication and the other team does not, you have a huge advantage - and I mean huge. That is not balance, if Bioware wanted teams to clash it out on even terms, they should have included VoIP in pvp ops - like many other competetive games have done.

I would even dare claim that this is the largest factor in all the issues people have with premades, you can have a well balanced pug, but if you face a premade - who will almost always be on some sort of VoIP system, you will most likely lose.

 

The point about VoIP being easily available is odd. It is not a part of the game - its a 3rd party software. Just because it is easy to obtain doesnt justfiy anything, and I think you know this. Would my point be more valid if VoIP software was more expensive? Only worked on Windows XP? or some other factor that made it less accessable.

 

Besides, how would your coordinate a pug fast into a VoIP solution?

 

Regards

Mask

I guarantee I do better without macros then with them. Competitive WZs with premades vs premades are too dynamic, a macro cannot accomplish this. This is how I play and I refuse to just make giant macros with all available abilities, its just lame. This is why Rift was so terrible, everyone could just put everything on a macro...they had no real playing skill. You said it yourself, "you cannot as a human react like a macro" hence you are having the macro play for you. This is why ToR and GW2 don't have macros, automation is bad and a crutch in competitive play. Most of it all it makes playing boring. With the GCD being 1.5s the only ability that would benefit from a macro is riposte and even then it costs a ton of rage, I rarely use it as is (maybe .1 second on timing). I have my rotations down to a science, I don't miss anything pressing the keys myself.

 

Macros are a much larger advantage than VoIP is. You are automating your character and you are putting in as little effort as possible to play your class. VoIP is the opposite, you are making the effort to work as a pre-made, call objectives and targets and strategies. Once ranked WZs come out this will be even more the case.

 

I have nothing against people that use macros...especially when they are available to you. This is not how I play games, its boring.

Edited April 26, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[andrew_b_gross]

I guarantee I do better without macros then with them.

 

...

 

Macros are a much larger advantage than VoIP is..

 

Aren't these statements contradictory?

 

I also think you'd make a better case for your viewpoint if you stopped saying that macros "play the game for you". That's so obviously untrue that it calls into question everything else you say. You are still faced with a nearly overwhelming number of things to keep track of. I have all of my attacks macroed down to 4 main button presses, with another 3 that I use situationally. Despite that, I have 21 buttons keybound that I use on a regular basis.

 

If SWTOR gave me adequate proc and CD tracking-- e.g. easily recognizable visual and audio clues that did not require me to look down at my quickbar-- I would probably un-macro most or all of what I have macroed right now. As it is, no longer needing to track as many procs and CDs has given me enough of my attention back that I can usefully guide my raid, call out instructions, cover for mistakes I'm seeing, etc. The game has NOT become any easier for me; it's just that I'm now paying attention to different things and making different decisions.

Edited April 26, 2012 by andrew_b_gross

[JustinxDuff]

How are they contradictory? People that are sub par and use macros will seem better but only because they have a macro making their decisions for them. VoIP is not like this.

 

Macros do play the game for you. They make decisions for you that you cannot or will not make, plain and simple.

 

Buffs and debuffs are very easy to track once you recognize their icons.

 

If you are using less keys with a macro than without then the macro did make the game easier.

Edited April 26, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[andrew_b_gross]

Macros do play the game for you. They make decisions for you that you cannot or will not make, plain and simple.

 

Automating 10% of my decisions is not the same thing as having macros play the game for me. "Playing the game for me" would mean it makes all decisions for me. It's unnecessarily insulting.

 

Buffs and debuffs are very easy to track once you recognize their icons.

 

I believe you when you say that you find it easy to keep track of the very small iconos that appear in completely different places depending on how many of them are active at a given time, while at the same time monitoring the cooldowns of a half dozen abilities by looking at your quickbar, while at the same time watching the action going on. I truly do. But many of us can't, and we shouldn't be asked to. There's absolutely no reason why you can't have bright, obvious visual clues placed right next to or around your character. There's no reason why every time a major ability procs you shouldn't get an obvious sound played through your speakers.

 

Being able to move your eyes from the center of the screen to the small icons to the quickbar over and over again multiple times per second is indeed a skill. Given the current state of the UI, a player that has that skill will do better than a player that doesn't. But I don't think it's a particularly interesting skill , nor do I find it a skill that's enjoyable to employ. I don't see it as being any different than if the game rewarded players for, say, solving complicated algeba problems very quickly: it would be a skill, people that could do it quickly would outperform people that couldn't, and even though I could outperform 99% of the player at it, I still wouldn't find it fun.

 

I don't think the ability to monitor your procs and CDs with the current UI is interesting. I don't think it should distinguish good players from bad players, even though it currently does. I would much rather have good players distinguished from bad players by their ability to make interesting decisions on the fly, like where to stand, who/what to attack, which abilities to use based on focus management, when to employ defensive CDs, when to interrupt, how to direct other players, and so on. There are huge differences in skill between good and bad players on these dimensions, and unlike monitoring procs and CDs, I find these decisions to be interesting. Using macros allows me to partially compensate for the cruddy UI and spend a higher percentage of my time and attention making decisions that are interesting to me.

 

If you are using less keys with a macro than without then the macro did make the game easier.

 

This may be true, but it is not necessarily true. It is not the case that it is a logical necessity that it be true.

 

Monitoring CDs and procs is a mechanical process. It consumes time and attention, and some people are better at it than others, but I don't think it's "hard" in any interesting way. If I am using the time and attention that I would otherwise be spending on monitoring those procs and CDs on calling out directions to my teammates on vent, or timing my Inspiration correctly because I'm tracking what the other DPS is doing, or intentionally drawing aggro for a few seconds because I can see my tank is in trouble, then the game has not become any easier for me; I've just replaced one use of my time with another use of my time.

 

Put another way: if you're saying that macros automate something that other players are needing to spend some amount of time or effort or thought on, then that means someone using macros has that amount of time or effort or thought available to spend on something else. If he just wastes it, then yes, the game has gotten easier for that person-- he's able to relax a bit more. But if, instead, that player uses those resources to do something else, then the game hasn't gotten any easier for that player-- he's spending just as much effort as he was before. He's just traded one set of tasks for another set of tasks.

 

I lose about 100-150 dps by using macros, at least on the training dummies. So it's not lke the macros give me everything that I would have if I was playing manually, PLUS the ability to concentrate on something else. I pay a price for using macros, because I think it's worth it to my raid for me to make the tradeoff to be able to spend more attention on other tasks. It's a trade, not an addition. Whether the trade is good or bad, whether the trade resultss in me spending more or less effort, is an empirical question, not one that can be answered by simple logic.

[Maskius]

How are they contradictory? People that are sub par and use macros will seem better but only because they have a macro making their decisions for them. VoIP is not like this.

 

Macros do play the game for you. They make decisions for you that you cannot or will not make, plain and simple.

 

Buffs and debuffs are very easy to track once you recognize their icons.

 

If you are using less keys with a macro than without then the macro did make the game easier.

 

Justin, now you seem to fall into the category of players I mentioned earlier. You know, the ones with ego issues... Why do people have to be sub par to use macros? If one find the built in system extremely lacking in regards to skill, cd, proc etc. management and therefore use macros, does that mean they are sub par?

 

By your logic, I could very well find you and your premade group very sub par because you feel the need to generate a huge advantage for yourselves through 3rd party communication software - at least against those, who for whatever reason, does not have it available.

Mind you, I have nothing against VoIP, I just wish it was automatically included in the game - for everyone, even pugs.

 

However, Andrew wrote an excellent post on the reasons behind using macros, most importantly the shift of focus to much more interesting and competitive skills, like battlefield awareness. Mashing tons of buttons at the right time and correct order is something for Tekken fans.

 

Regards

Mask

[JustinxDuff]

Justin, now you seem to fall into the category of players I mentioned earlier. You know, the ones with ego issues... Why do people have to be sub par to use macros? If one find the built in system extremely lacking in regards to skill, cd, proc etc. management and therefore use macros, does that mean they are sub par?

 

By your logic, I could very well find you and your premade group very sub par because you feel the need to generate a huge advantage for yourselves through 3rd party communication software - at least against those, who for whatever reason, does not have it available.

Mind you, I have nothing against VoIP, I just wish it was automatically included in the game - for everyone, even pugs.

 

However, Andrew wrote an excellent post on the reasons behind using macros, most importantly the shift of focus to much more interesting and competitive skills, like battlefield awareness. Mashing tons of buttons at the right time and correct order is something for Tekken fans.

 

Regards

Mask

 

Edit: I should have said this earlier but I am speaking from a 100% PvP standpoint as I never do PvE at all.

 

I did not say people that use macros are automatically sub-par. I said if someone that is sub-par uses a macro it is artificially making them better at the class.

 

What you said about the pre-made doesn't make much sense as pre-mades SHOULD be using VoIP in the first place...it is what working as a team is about. VoIP is available to everyone, you do not need a mic for it to be effective. Macros (in ToR) are only available to those that buy the hardware for it.

 

There is nothing right now that is hindering a players ability to track CDs/buffs and be aware on the battlefield at the same time. Pressing buttons is not "just for Tekken" because if it was then in-game macros would exist.

 

Macros automate your class and play it for you. This is lame and my opinion on the matter, nothing more.

Edited April 26, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[Apoxie]

Any class is easily macroable if they use a priority list. And it doesnt matter if the game supports macros or not, since your 3rd party hardware can do it completely legal - and the game company cannot forbid that, since it would have an adverse effect on the hardware manufacturer (they even tried).

 

I personally macro with a nostromo gamingpad, where i can record macros that press a number of keys in short succession. This is exactly what is needed for a class with a priority list. I typically have a defensive buff button, an offensive buff one and a primary and maybe secondary attack button. This works for almost any class in any game.

 

The principle is simple when the class uses a priority list: First it should always fire ability A if possible. If that is not possible then it should fire ability B and so on. With 1.5 sec global cooldown and the ability to buffer your key input, you can do it as a macro or without a macro equally well.

 

A macro just lets you map several abilities to 1 key, making it more relaxing to play the game in my opinion.

[Maskius]

Edit: I should have said this earlier but I am speaking from a 100% PvP standpoint as I never do PvE at all.

 

I did not say people that use macros are automatically sub-par. I said if someone that is sub-par uses a macro it is artificially making them better at the class.

 

What you said about the pre-made doesn't make much sense as pre-mades SHOULD be using VoIP in the first place...it is what working as a team is about. VoIP is available to everyone, you do not need a mic for it to be effective. Macros (in ToR) are only available to those that buy the hardware for it.

 

There is nothing right now that is hindering a players ability to track CDs/buffs and be aware on the battlefield at the same time. Pressing buttons is not "just for Tekken" because if it was then in-game macros would exist.

 

Macros automate your class and play it for you. This is lame and my opinion on the matter, nothing more.

 

I think we are into semantics now, but thats fine.

 

So you are saying that sub par players that use macros will be artificially boosted, but good players - such as yourselves I assume, will gain absolutely no benefit from it? If that is the case, then lets just agree to disagree..

 

Your argument about VoIP is becoming self-defeating, Justin. Not that it was a point I had in mind to debate initially. But saying that you need to buy hardware for macro capability and not VoIP is beyond reason. At least someone needs to buy a mic for VoIP to be useful, can we agree? Or do you imagine a premade where none have a mic being very useful?

Besides there can be other reasons why people cannot use VoIP.

 

And let me doctor this sentence of yours to fit one of my points:

There is nothing right now that is hindering a players ability to communicate through ops chat and play the game at the same time. VoIP is not meant to be used, because if it was then in-game VoIP would exist.

 

They problem is when premades on Vent, TS or Mumble meet pugs, which happens more often than not, the availability of VoIP is not even a point here because a pug cannot coordinate a shared channel effectively enough.

That is a major imbalance.

 

However, as I said earlier, I dont care about VoIP in general, but my point still stands, BW should include it in the game - and until they do, those using it are at an advantage against those who cannot or will not use it.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Maskius

[OdamanPrime]

Not going into detail, but a macro won't bring you anywhere near your potential dps. Not only that, but it won't allow you the control required for certain situations (like constantly keeping overload at 3 stacks for multiple overload cooldowns).

[Apoxie]

Not going into detail, but a macro won't bring you anywhere near your potential dps. Not only that, but it won't allow you the control required for certain situations (like constantly keeping overload at 3 stacks for multiple overload cooldowns).

 

Cant you just put overload first in your priority list? It will be the first ability the macro tries to use then (you still have to press the button at least once every 1.5 sec)

 

So you have a button for leap and a button for your combat macro, with overload as priority A. Then Cauterize as prio B, Merciless as C, Zealous as D ...

Edited April 27, 2012 by Apoxie

[HeliosApollo]

Just an update. I got Merciless slash and I've had it for a while now.

 

I've turned my one macro in to two. This is what it looks like.

 

Burn/ focus generator

Overload Saber>Riposte>Zealot Strike>Cauterize>Strike

 

Focus Dump macro

Merciless Slash> Slash

 

I also use Master Strike but it has it's own button.

 

This helps me to not reapply cauterize if it resets before it expires. I have been able to manage it decently.

I have been able to consistently put up an average of 250k in a wz while going for objectives. I have been able to put up over 300k in some with my highest so far being 330k. I am currently lvl 42. All my wz's are pugged so I don't have the back up of a healer or guildies.

This may not be as optimal as someone micro managing everything but I've yet to see watchman in my bracket put out the same numbers. I'm not saying they aren't out there all I'm saying is this is very viable. I hope my informations helps others enjoy their class.

[nicolatron]

Just an update. I got Merciless slash and I've had it for a while now.

 

I've turned my one macro in to two. This is what it looks like.

 

Burn/ focus generator

Overload Saber>Riposte>Zealot Strike>Cauterize>Strike

 

Focus Dump macro

Merciless Slash> Slash

 

I also use Master Strike but it has it's own button.

 

This helps me to not reapply cauterize if it resets before it expires. I have been able to manage it decently.

I have been able to consistently put up an average of 250k in a wz while going for objectives. I have been able to put up over 300k in some with my highest so far being 330k. I am currently lvl 42. All my wz's are pugged so I don't have the back up of a healer or guildies.

This may not be as optimal as someone micro managing everything but I've yet to see watchman in my bracket put out the same numbers. I'm not saying they aren't out there all I'm saying is this is very viable. I hope my informations helps others enjoy their class.

You should add dispatch as your first move on both macros, or at least on the Focus Dump one. Edited April 27, 2012 by nicolatron

[HeliosApollo]

You should add dispatch as your first move on both macros, or at least on the Focus Dump one.

 

I plan on it as soon as I get the ability. I'm really looking foward to it. If it does anywhere near the damage my shadows execute ability does It's going to be op.

 

I seriously feel a nerfbat coming our way. It may be differenrt at 50 but I feel unstoppable in wz's atm. I feel we have so much much utility it's rediculous. I go back to my 50 shadow and I feel very lackluster. Kinetic is at a good spot right now but our other two tree need some love as far as survivabilty.

[nicolatron]

Good sents are very good, but good shadows are on par. They can take a lot of pain, and do a lot of damage too, with awesome burst and some utility, 1vs1 with them are very close. Good vanguards/powertech are a *********** knightmare, same as commandos/bh. Gunsliders had a +10% last patch, and are doing better now, good scoundrels/operatives, can heal a lot while retaining good ccs and a decent burst. I don't feel game is so much imbalanced as of now. But well if nerf comes we'll see how we end.

[HeliosApollo]

Good sents are very good, but good shadows are on par. They can take a lot of pain, and do a lot of damage too, with awesome burst and some utility, 1vs1 with them are very close. Good vanguards/powertech are a *********** knightmare, same as commandos/bh. Gunsliders had a +10% last patch, and are doing better now, good scoundrels/operatives, can heal a lot while retaining good ccs and a decent burst. I don't feel game is so much imbalanced as of now. But well if nerf comes we'll see how we end.

 

I agree with your post except in a group enviornment an infiltration shadow and even balance lacks survivalbility. They aren't even close to on par as a sentinel. They have on demand burst but it seems with 1.2 most classes do now as well. 1v1 infiltration shadows can dominate any class but put in a group setting and if they start getting focused it's game over.

[Aurojiin]

Macros (in ToR) are only available to those that buy the hardware for it.

Just a small bynote, but this is incorrect. You can create macros on generic hardware with freely available programs.

 

And yes, my dark powers of thread necromancy are very great.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Aurojiin

[Andrew_TS]

First, I will say that I honestly did not read through every post on this thread, so if I say something that has already been addressed, sorry.

 

To the OP, I fully agree with you that using macros for your main dps priority/rotation makes Watchman Sentinels dps machines. I have used macros to play this game since day 1 and I have been playing my Sentinel since day 1 as well. I use a gamepad (similar to a PS3 controller) for virtually all game play. I am not top geared yet, however, my primary DPS button macro parses ~1700 DPS. My secondary AOE macro parses on a single target at ~1400 DPS (~1800 DPS on trash in ops). Parsing for single target was done on the Ops Training Dummy on my ship. I also have a macro for cc break/interrupt/f-stasis, one for valorous call/insperation, one for defensives, and one for droid/awe cc. My d-pad has single press and double press single skill macros and my joysticks control movement and camera look. I also have a special tab target macro setup that is more predictive than your typical tab targeting and a button setup for stims.

 

Though I have been playing this way since day 1, my macros have been adapted many times to adjust for conditional instances. With my current setup, in pve, i am virtually always top dps on boss fights (with exception to boss fight that require a lot of running around and target switching where I am only out dps'ed by ranged players that don't have to move) and, in pvp, am almost always top damage (with exception to instances where aoe dominates because the other faction was grouping up making them aoe targets).

 

Thus far, the only issue that there is with macros is when Master Strike is on the main macro and gets canceled before it finished because zen proced or a relic came off cd and was used ogcd. However, the lose of overall dps due to this actually only 20-30 dps over time and not a huge deal.

 

I would say that it is because of the way that I play (using a gamepad) that has kept me playing. I have even started adapting some of my macros for other classes with great success. And btw, before people start flaming about my choice to play with a gamepad, I have a condition that prevents me from typing at a speed that would be needed to play this game on a keyboard and that prevents coordination of using a mouse and keyboard together with any efficiency and therefore, this game is only playable for me if I use a gamepad.

 

In my opinion, if the game is to complicated to have fun playing it, remove the complication and return to having fun.

[OGsam]

Show us the combat parses and we'll see if this isn't complete rubbish

[Andrew_TS]

Show us the combat parses and we'll see if this isn't complete rubbish

 

Here it is. This KP Nightmare Mode; DPS was done with all 4 class buffs, however, I was not using any stims.

[Stealios]

I just don't get why you would want to make the PvE in this game any easier than it is already. If anything it would make me quit the game if I was using macros for an already really easy thing to do.

 

EDIT: Ofcourse it's your choice to use them if it makes you interested more, I just don't get it.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Stealios