Input needed from some of the Great Vanguards

[TheOpf]

In this thread, we are having an intelligent and thought out discussion of the tree in the BH line. Granted 80 percent of it's from myself, but I could use some feedback from Vanguards who have attempted or are willing to try it both in 1.2 and live.

 

My 3 days as an Advanced Prototype: A Pyro BH look

 

Currently we are discussing optimal rotations which would eliminate HIB from your rotation. Please see the thread and give your input.

 

We are not discussing how competitive it is with Pyro/Assault. We all know the differences, but if you read the thread you will see what my thought process and I would welcome your valued input.

[Codename_Quincy]

removing hib from any rotation is nothing but a mistake

[origional]

Having a rotation is nothing but a mistake. Adapt, over come.

[TheOpf]

removing hib from any rotation is nothing but a mistake

 

Take a look at the Research. You lose time on your biggest hitters by using HiB.

[kbstealer]

Take a look at the Research. You lose time on your biggest hitters by using HiB.

 

you cannot give up hib, as tactics it is just not a main ability. using hib right after fire pulse = nice burst. if you think removing it gives u a dps boost you're crazy.

[Karandor]

you cannot give up hib, as tactics it is just not a main ability. using hib right after fire pulse = nice burst. if you think removing it gives u a dps boost you're crazy.

 

It actually lowers your DPS because it requires gut and you lose 2 stacks of PG. Add in the fact that PG stacks are also currently increasing damage on Mortar volley and sticky grenade and it is a no brainer that you want to build stacks ASAP. A crit HiB barely hits harder than a crit ion pulse and takes 6 talent points. The chances of having a guaranteed crit every 15s if you aren't spamming gut (why the hell would you?) are very bad.

 

I've removed it completely from my talent build and game-play and have no noticeable drop in killing power or DPS, if anything it's better because I have 5 stacks faster and more often.

[kbstealer]

It actually lowers your DPS because it requires gut and you lose 2 stacks of PG. Add in the fact that PG stacks are also currently increasing damage on Mortar volley and sticky grenade and it is a no brainer that you want to build stacks ASAP. A crit HiB barely hits harder than a crit ion pulse and takes 6 talent points. The chances of having a guaranteed crit every 15s if you aren't spamming gut (why the hell would you?) are very bad.

 

I've removed it completely from my talent build and game-play and have no noticeable drop in killing power or DPS, if anything it's better because I have 5 stacks faster and more often.

 

what?

 

you're tryn to say that PG stacks are better than hib? people can run out of pulse cannon, you can get stunned while using or knocked back or pushed. you cant stop hib with a kb or a push.

 

pulse cannon is also very situational, hib is 30m range instant cast.

 

you can try to rationalize yourself but i play tactics, i own hard with it, hib cannot be given up, its just not a main attack.

 

i'd love to show you the error of your ways, but as that is not possible you just need to take my word for it, HIB = must use even for tactics.

[TheOpf]

what?

 

You missed the point of his argument. You are talking pvp he is talking burst and pve on live.

 

you're tryn to say that PG stacks are better than hib? people can run out of pulse cannon, you can get stunned while using or knocked back or pushed. you cant stop hib with a kb or a push.

 

pulse cannon is also very situational, hib is 30m range instant cast.

 

PG stacks are absolutely the biggest burst you have in the tree. If you don't believe it, use it on someone and watch their health bar drop. Unfortunately, you are also correct. In live, it's a situational ability because you can be kb'd, interrupted, and pushed. However, that's why you have Hold the line. Use Hold the line just before popping it, and you can only be interrupted. In 1.2 this will no longer be the case, and you will be able to use PG/PFT like we are supposed to.

 

In a PVE static environment, every HiB use pushes PG farther down your rotation, which causes your biggest attack to be used less and less often. Remember you have 12 seconds from the time PG ends to the time it's ready to be popped again. You can use HiB or you can choose not too, over the span of a 5 minute fight there the amount of dps gained by using a 2500-3k HiB on demand is less than using a 5 stack PG 3 extra times.

 

you can try to rationalize yourself but i play tactics, i own hard with it, hib cannot be given up, its just not a main attack.

 

i'd love to show you the error of your ways, but as that is not possible you just need to take my word for it, HIB = must use even for tactics.

 

I think you mean it is a main central attack. However, you are more correct in that's it's not a main attack it's a toss in. It's absolutely worthless to use outside of Crit procs. RB is a very weak dot which can be offset by more PG. PG is your hardest hitting ability and should be used on 5 stacks every single time you get to 5 stacks.

 

Try your rotation without HiB and Gut. You will find it simpler and without a noticeable dps loss. In fact you will find your burst is significantly higher. In PVP, it's not feasible to drop it until 1.2. However many of us rarely use Gut or HiB in pvp environments unless kiting or hitting a runner.

[Karandor]

what?

 

you're tryn to say that PG stacks are better than hib? people can run out of pulse cannon, you can get stunned while using or knocked back or pushed. you cant stop hib with a kb or a push.

 

pulse cannon is also very situational, hib is 30m range instant cast.

 

you can try to rationalize yourself but i play tactics, i own hard with it, hib cannot be given up, its just not a main attack.

 

i'd love to show you the error of your ways, but as that is not possible you just need to take my word for it, HIB = must use even for tactics.

 

I run tatics without HiB right now and have not had any drop in my effectiveness. A crit HiB doesn't even hit that hard. 2.5-3k is barely more (300-500) than an ion pulse crit and it costs 6+ talent points and can only happen MAX every 15s and the chances of that are around 50% if you aren't spamming gut. Gut hits for terrible damage. For a max damage burst rotation gut hurts you more than HiB helps you.

 

Try playing without HiB at all and you will not notice a difference in your killing power. 9% aim or any of the defense/utility you give up to get it are worth more.

 

Also right now Mortar Volley and Sticky Grenade also get a damage bonus from stacks which makes it even more advantageous to get stacks as fast as possible. With a 30s CD on HtL, a 35 second CD on cryo grenade and a 45s CD on neural surge you should not have a problem landing a good pulse cannon.

 

HiB is a trap in tactics builds. It looks sexy but when you do the math on burst with gut included and look at the severe talent point cost vs. the 15s CD and the small chance to even get the guaranteed crit within that window, unless you gimp damage with gut spam, it just doesn't make sense to keep it in the build. I'll take 9% aim, 10s less CD on cryo grenade and my ion pulse targets doing 4% less damage over a crit HiB every 15s any day of the week.

[Mozivicus]

I don't understand why your HIBs are crit'ing for so little. I consider my HIB to be light, and I crit for no less than 35-3600 in PvE. I've been up to 4100, and that is still light compared to some of the other troopers I've talked to.

[TheOpf]

I don't understand why your HIBs are crit'ing for so little. I consider my HIB to be light, and I crit for no less than 35-3600 in PvE. I've been up to 4100, and that is still light compared to some of the other troopers I've talked to.

 

You are probably running with the 4 pc PVE set. It adds an extra 8 percent to the damage. Also if you are running Assault, your HiB by spec will be hitting significantly higher. HiB hits hard when specced into the tree, but you lose PG time by using it and Gut in your rotation.

 

Look at it this way.

 

You have 12 seconds from one 5 stack PG to the next.

 

FP = 1.5 sec, Stockstrike = 3sec, IPx5 = 10.5 sec where exactly do you fit another attack in? You have 1.5 sec of total space, because if you aren't using 5 stack PG on CD than you are suffering a dps loss. So let's say you add HiB and Gut to the rotation.

 

FP = 1.5, Gut = 3, Stock = 4.5, HiB = 6, IP x 5 = 13.5

 

You are now 1.5 seconds behind every single rotation of PG. By the time you finish your second rotation you are now a full PG behind. So your two HiB's need to hit harder than 1 full PG rotation. Within 4 cycles you will be 2 PG's behind which doubles the amount of damage difference. That's if you stick to the rotation perfectly.

 

Now let's add in using HiB on every proc 15 sec apart, and using Stock on Proc every 9 seconds.

 

So every 15 sec you use HiB regardless of where you are based on Crit. This means since every rotation takes 13.5 seconds, your HiB would be used randomly within that amount of space further pushing your 5 stack PG from coming. Every 9 seconds you add 1.5 sec used up for a procced Stock. Because if you don't than you will over heat sooner meaning wasted damage on a Rapid shots.

 

So now your rotation becomes

 

FP = 1.5 sec, Stock = 3 sec, Gut = 4.5, HiB = 6, IP x4 = 12 sec, Stock = 13.5, IP = 15, PG

FP = 1.5 sec, Stock and repeat.

 

Except your Fire Pulse has now been sitting for 3 seconds, your HiB is now sitting and you aren't using it, Stock is waiting, and Gut is about to wear off. So every 9 sec add 1.5 sec, and every 15 sec add 1.5 sec, and pretty soon every two rotations you are behind 1.5 PG's than 2 PG's than 3 PG's. Granted you gain an awesome 1.5 sec crit, but you lose the 3 sec tick of your hardest hitting ability.

 

Does that make sense?

Edited April 9, 2012 by TheOpf

[Karandor]

I don't understand why your HIBs are crit'ing for so little. I consider my HIB to be light, and I crit for no less than 35-3600 in PvE. I've been up to 4100, and that is still light compared to some of the other troopers I've talked to.

 

They don't hit that hard as tactics. 30% less armor pen and 30% less crit damage than assault.

 

 

If you have it hit that hard as tactics it's on someone with very bad gear.

 

 

Also, I'm talking PvP not PvE. I have no idea how hard it hits in PvE.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Karandor

[Coramac]

They don't hit that hard as tactics. 30% less armor pen and 30% less crit damage than assault.

 

 

If you have it hit that hard as tactics it's on someone with very bad gear.

 

 

Also, I'm talking PvP not PvE. I have no idea how hard it hits in PvE.

 

Yea, someone in the other thread was saying HIB crit harder than Fire Pulse in Tactics. It was at least an easy way to figure out who to ignore on that thread.

[Karandor]

Yea, someone in the other thread was saying HIB crit harder than Fire Pulse in Tactics. It was at least an easy way to figure out who to ignore on that thread.

 

Yeah, everyone who has tried the no-HiB/RS build has reported either no loss in performance or a net gain.

 

 

I'm not even sure I'll grab the snare on gut in 1.2 since it will require a bunch of points in stuff I don't want.

[BardaTheHobo]

The last screenshot i looked at you have to get the hib crit to get the gut snare, unless they have changed something, and having a spammable snare will be very nice, this is talking of course post 1.2

 

This is the ss im referring to, again it might have changed. http://i.imgur.com/0Snzx.jpg

 

 

But i must say, as playing tactics since the beginning (took a small break to see what the assault spec stuff was about, was not to impressed) that i was surprised to see something I did not know. I did not know that the stacks affected mortar volley and sticky grenade, ill have to play around with it now hehe. But out of curiosity do we know if it will still be like that post 1.2?

[Cryowolf]

This is the ss im referring to, again it might have changed. http://i.imgur.com/0Snzx.jpg

 

That SS makes me sad. Running the no HiB spec right now and did not want to have to change for 1.2.

 

 

[Pulse Generator effecting Mortar Volley and Sticky Grenade]

But out of curiosity do we know if it will still be like that post 1.2?

 

In the Powertech forums they are saying it does not work that way for them. Mapex has stated it is something left over from beta.

 

It will likely get changed to only effect pulse cannon.

 

*edit* I am enjoying it right now though, lol.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Cryowolf

[TheOpf]

That SS makes me sad. Running the no HiB spec right now and did not want to have to change for 1.2..

 

You still can keep your HiB free since 2003 build, but you will lose the spammable snare.

 

You will have to run a build closer to this 8/31/2

[Mozivicus]

You are probably running with the 4 pc PVE set. It adds an extra 8 percent to the damage. Also if you are running Assault, your HiB by spec will be hitting significantly higher. HiB hits hard when specced into the tree, but you lose PG time by using it and Gut in your rotation.

 

Look at it this way.

 

You have 12 seconds from one 5 stack PG to the next.

 

FP = 1.5 sec, Stockstrike = 3sec, IPx5 = 10.5 sec where exactly do you fit another attack in? You have 1.5 sec of total space, because if you aren't using 5 stack PG on CD than you are suffering a dps loss. So let's say you add HiB and Gut to the rotation.

 

FP = 1.5, Gut = 3, Stock = 4.5, HiB = 6, IP x 5 = 13.5

 

You are now 1.5 seconds behind every single rotation of PG. By the time you finish your second rotation you are now a full PG behind. So your two HiB's need to hit harder than 1 full PG rotation. Within 4 cycles you will be 2 PG's behind which doubles the amount of damage difference. That's if you stick to the rotation perfectly.

 

Now let's add in using HiB on every proc 15 sec apart, and using Stock on Proc every 9 seconds.

 

So every 15 sec you use HiB regardless of where you are based on Crit. This means since every rotation takes 13.5 seconds, your HiB would be used randomly within that amount of space further pushing your 5 stack PG from coming. Every 9 seconds you add 1.5 sec used up for a procced Stock. Because if you don't than you will over heat sooner meaning wasted damage on a Rapid shots.

 

So now your rotation becomes

 

FP = 1.5 sec, Stock = 3 sec, Gut = 4.5, HiB = 6, IP x4 = 12 sec, Stock = 13.5, IP = 15, PG

FP = 1.5 sec, Stock and repeat.

 

Except your Fire Pulse has now been sitting for 3 seconds, your HiB is now sitting and you aren't using it, Stock is waiting, and Gut is about to wear off. So every 9 sec add 1.5 sec, and every 15 sec add 1.5 sec, and pretty soon every two rotations you are behind 1.5 PG's than 2 PG's than 3 PG's. Granted you gain an awesome 1.5 sec crit, but you lose the 3 sec tick of your hardest hitting ability.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Yes, it makes sense. Nice thought process btw. I'd really like to see some logs on a dummy in 1.2 before I go ahead and get away from my assault build. I like the 31 point I'm in now, but I have been advised to move towards a hybrid by more than one (top tier, imo)Vanguard on my server. I guess I'm just one of those people that's reluctant to change if something doesn't appear to be broken. We'll see how it goes after the update. Thanks for the intelligent discussion.

[kbstealer]

I don't understand why your HIBs are crit'ing for so little. I consider my HIB to be light, and I crit for no less than 35-3600 in PvE. I've been up to 4100, and that is still light compared to some of the other troopers I've talked to.

 

in assault i can crit upto 5200 with hib, thats the max i've seen on a squishy lowbie. in tactics u lose 9% damage from burning, 30% crit damage, 30% armor pen.

 

back to the main topic, i dont pve with tactics as dps i ot as tactics. i'm mostly a pvper and as such i cannot give up hib.

 

its plain to see that most of you are dead set in your opinion of hib for tactics. all i can say is that from personal experience of owning pretty much anything cept full heal spec healers (cuz my burst isnt high enough as tactics) hib cannot be discarded.

 

*DISCLAIMER* if this whole thread was about tactics pve damage rotations and removing hib from that then i withdraw all my arguments. i have no experience doing ops/hm fp as tactics dps, i dps solely in assault.

 

My Current tactics pvp build:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMGZMsrrobfkds.1 (using ion cell)

[Coramac]

in assault i can crit upto 5200 with hib, thats the max i've seen on a squishy lowbie. in tactics u lose 9% damage from burning, 30% crit damage, 30% armor pen.

 

Which is around 27.5% less damage depending on the target.

 

Against 5k armor, a 5200 HIB from Assault will crit for 3595. Against 3k armor, it's 3767. On 8k armor, it's 3374. Then we need to factor in having to use Gut regularly if we want to use HIB regularly. This adds a GCD and costs 2 more ammo for very little damage. It's a lot of damage per CD, but to get that we far exceed a burst window. Due to this, it's not availabe for a target swap if we haven't preped the target which is really not the play style of Tactics.

 

It's not bad in a duel setting. It's not bad to throw in on an autocrit for extra damage. It is bad to regularly use it. It just isn't that effective for Tactics. 2 Ion Pulses are significantly better than HIB and Gut in the overwhelming majority of cases.

[Karandor]

in assault i can crit upto 5200 with hib, thats the max i've seen on a squishy lowbie. in tactics u lose 9% damage from burning, 30% crit damage, 30% armor pen.

 

back to the main topic, i dont pve with tactics as dps i ot as tactics. i'm mostly a pvper and as such i cannot give up hib.

 

its plain to see that most of you are dead set in your opinion of hib for tactics. all i can say is that from personal experience of owning pretty much anything cept full heal spec healers (cuz my burst isnt high enough as tactics) hib cannot be discarded.

 

*DISCLAIMER* if this whole thread was about tactics pve damage rotations and removing hib from that then i withdraw all my arguments. i have no experience doing ops/hm fp as tactics dps, i dps solely in assault.

 

My Current tactics pvp build:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMGZMsrrobfkds.1 (using ion cell)

 

 

The fact that you're using ion cell shows that you aren't playing the same spec as what we're talking about. Removing Gut and HiB would still benefit you though with faster stacks of PG for much higher DPS.

 

8 points of a build with maximised HiB can be moved into other talents. That's a a lot of talent points for a crit on a 15s CD.

 

That build has terrible mobility and terrible ammo problems. You'd be much better off playing an Ironfist spec.

 

A full tatics spec kills anything but a healer with guard and taunt or lots of cross healing. If you manage to get the healers in one area (happens all the time on voidstar) you can destroy them.

[kbstealer]

The fact that you're using ion cell shows that you aren't playing the same spec as what we're talking about. Removing Gut and HiB would still benefit you though with faster stacks of PG for much higher DPS.

 

8 points of a build with maximised HiB can be moved into other talents. That's a a lot of talent points for a crit on a 15s CD.

 

That build has terrible mobility and terrible ammo problems. You'd be much better off playing an Ironfist spec.

 

A full tatics spec kills anything but a healer with guard and taunt or lots of cross healing. If you manage to get the healers in one area (happens all the time on voidstar) you can destroy them.

 

 

i have 0 mobility or ammo issues with my spec in pvp. tactics is ammo friendly even without the regen from hec.

[TheOpf]

i have 0 mobility or ammo issues with my spec in pvp. tactics is ammo friendly even without the regen from hec.

 

Yes, but you are still not using the same spec. You are also losing on average 8 percent damage across the board and as high as 15 percent depending on talents. You also have 15 percent less speed. And you don't have free heat reduction, Your build cannot be used in pve without seeing a significant damage reduction and you will overhear in any extended fight.

 

IGC builds are great for Hybrids and Tank specs, but with the new slows inside the AP tree it's no longer needed for Deep ap builds

[TehMerc]

Well at least with the damage meters a couple people have developed, you guys can start doing math on this rather than relying on gut instinct.

 

Personally HiB with all the free crits it gets from gut's bleed ticks now is worth it, especially in pvp.

[TheOpf]

Well at least with the damage meters a couple people have developed, you guys can start doing math on this rather than relying on gut instinct.

 

Personally HiB with all the free crits it gets from gut's bleed ticks now is worth it, especially in pvp.

 

There is no all the free crits. You still can only use HiB once every 15 seconds. So you are using it only every 15 seconds with a crit anyways. Did you ever have it come off cd when you didn't have a proc previously?

 

 

The only thing it does is come closer to guaranteeing a crit every time it comes off CD. it did not buff it nor change the advantage of using it.