Powertech AP

[Agooz]

It seems like people are only concerned about dps when talking about powertechs, but I played against a team with an AP ball carrier and was amazed how good it is for carrying the huttball and escaping danger. I could also see it being useful in VS and CW to plant bomb/cap or to get somewhere quick enough to prevent these actions. I've got all the eliminator and combat tech BM gear and am considering trying it out. If I do I will report back with my results.

 

I see you havent been following the arguments and drama of these threads. We're not talking about roles of powertechs. We're strictly comparing 2 "dps" trees.

If you want to score goals, defend turrets and doors, PT tanks with all their variants can get the job done just fine. No one is against a tank pvp role.

[Mapex]

I agree, but on live the reduced Quell is more important. Because there is almost no burst on the tree. In pyro, heck you can not quell sometimes and still blow a healer up.

 

Another thing is healers are somewhat broken on live (hence the nerfs to healing via Expertise and Sorcs/Commandos in general on the PTS). A LOT Of classes cannot kill a good healer, the high burst Gunslingers/Snipers included (which is why these two are getting a mortal wound debuff in the next patch and all class interrupts will no longer cost resources). Healer Sorcs/Sages are especially troublesome because they can game your Heat venting or ammo/energy regeneration, forcing you to spam your filler attack while they start unloading Force Lightning/TK Wave on you.

 

Saying AP sucks because it cannot burst down a healer is nonsensical as most of the classes in the game are in the same boat. And comparing it to PyroTech also makes no sense as the latter is fairly abusive (which again is why it is being toned down in 1.2).

 

I have been annihilating as AP over the last few days, topping leaderboards in damage, killing blows, and protection (except against those who are Guarding teammates) while also ball handling like a boss (though I still trust a Juggernaut with his Charge+Push+Charge more). It isn't anywhere close to an underperformer but a few quality of life tweaks such as the slows will help make it less frustrating to play so as to lower the barrier to entry.

 

I genuinely feel that AP will become overpowered once 1.2 hits but until that happens I'll have anti-AP trolls bury my posts.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Mapex

[Agooz]

Another thing is healers are somewhat broken on live (hence the nerfs to healing via Expertise and Sorcs/Commandos in general on the PTS). A LOT Of classes cannot kill a good healer, the high burst Gunslingers/Snipers included (which is why these two are getting a mortal wound debuff in the next patch and all class interrupts will no longer cost resources). Healer Sorcs/Sages are especially troublesome because they can game your Heat venting or ammo/energy regeneration, forcing you to spam your filler attack while they start unloading Force Lightning/TK Wave on you.

 

Saying AP sucks because it cannot burst down a healer is nonsensical as most of the classes in the game are in the same boat. And comparing it to PyroTech also makes no sense as the latter is fairly abusive (which again is why it is being toned down in 1.2).

 

I have been annihilating as AP over the last few days, topping leaderboards in damage, killing blows, and protection (except against those who are Guarding teammates) while also ball handling like a boss (though I still trust a Juggernaut with his Charge+Push+Charge more). It isn't anywhere close to an underperformer but a few quality of life tweaks such as the slows will help make it less frustrating to play so as to lower the barrier to entry.

 

I genuinely feel that AP will become overpowered once 1.2 hits but until that happens I'll have anti-AP trolls bury my posts.

 

So players who have tried both AP and Pyro and criticizing AP are trolls (which actually led to AP getting buffed). But a handful who do not have a grasp of the class in general and constantly make wrong statements about AP and Pyro, arent. How hypocritical, but that is the typical nonsense. In fact, you guys should be thanking us "trolls" for our constant criticism that, believe it or not, led to AP getting a decent and MUCH needed buff in 1.2

 

"Experienced" Pyros never needed, nor will ever need (post 1.2) a faster quell. Contrary to your false statement that you constantly repeat like a broken record, Pyros dont need 3 RS lucky streaks to take out a healer. Pyros can take out healers all the time, with or without lucky streaks. We all have Quell, Carbon, and stun. THREE interrupts is MORE than enough to take out ANY healer, and if for some reason you didnt, by then quell would be off of cooldown.

 

To be completely fair, there are TWO things that APs are better at than Pyros right now. First, it's having a better chance at scoring in Huttball, but STILL behind Sorcs, juggs, Marau, Assassins, but definitely better than a pyro. The second thing is their delusion of grandeur.

 

1.2 is definitely narrowing the gap, but there are still fundamental flaws in the tree. Having played AP for a long time in the past, I will try it out again post 1.2, so that IF I have any criticism then, it would be based on first hand experience and not just some nonsense repeated by 1 or 2 people.

 

Extremely confident that Railshot is absolutely a complete waste in this tree, and that investing "7 points" (puncture, Serrated Blades, Charged Gauntlets) on a 15sec ability is beyond ridiculous, this is the spec I will be running. It maximized the use of FB spam to make FT the staple of the spec, with or without 5x stacks. RP/Immo when off of CD, and RB exclusively and ONLY for the snare, while taking all the utilities of tree.

http://r2-db.com/skill-tree/calculator/9/bounty-hunter/powertech#build=f030000002d8ee8cd1f6c00000000

Edited April 7, 2012 by Agooz

[Agooz]

Above, I posted an AP spec I will be trying post 1.2. This made me think of a few things that could put AP on par with Pyro in terms of overall effectiveness, while having a completely different playstyle and role.

 

First of all, remove the following talents: Puncture, Serrated blades, and charged gauntlets.

 

In their place add the following:

A talent that allows RB to apply a 15% Main stats debuff for 6sec.

A talent that gives FB a 35% chance and Immo a 50% chance to apply an extra stack of PFT.

[Xsorus]

As a Pyrotech, I don't have much trouble with a Solo Healer, but that's because Pyro burst is pretty crazy, you honestly don't need 3 railshots as well, you get a healer below 30%, and Flameburst with the Dot damage increase below 30 is more then enough.

[LoKiei]

Sorry Mapex but you are delusional if you think AP will be OP after the changes.

 

AP will become about equal to Pyro in terms of worth or maybe slightly more usefull but still not close to comparable to the current melee classes (sin/shadow and sent/mara).

Edited April 8, 2012 by LoKiei

[TheOpf]

Above, I posted an AP spec I will be trying post 1.2. This made me think of a few things that could put AP on par with Pyro in terms of overall effectiveness, while having a completely different playstyle and role.

 

First of all, remove the following talents: Puncture, Serrated blades, and charged gauntlets.

 

In their place add the following:

A talent that allows RB to apply a 15% Main stats debuff for 6sec.

A talent that gives FB a 35% chance and Immo a 50% chance to apply an extra stack of PFT.

 

I see you are thinking of using the No-RS build we uncovered in the 3 days as AP thread. I am eager to see how it works. We need to call it something sexy though or everyone will miss it. Glad to see more people are looking at the Non-RS build we were discussing.

[TheOpf]

Sorry Mapex but you are delusional if you think AP will be OP after the changes.

 

AP will become about equal to Pyro in terms of worth or maybe slightly more usefull but still not close to comparable to the current melee classes (sin/shadow and sent/mara).

 

I think he is more concerned about people calling it OP. 70 percent slow on the most powerful attack PFT is going to be very nice. 6 seconds of total burn is close to 12k health gone. It's going to be fun.

[Karandor]

I think he is more concerned about people calling it OP. 70 percent slow on the most powerful attack PFT is going to be very nice. 6 seconds of total burn is close to 12k health gone. It's going to be fun.

 

The first tick happens instantly as well apparently....

 

Gonna be fun times.

[LoKiei]

I think he is more concerned about people calling it OP. 70 percent slow on the most powerful attack PFT is going to be very nice. 6 seconds of total burn is close to 12k health gone. It's going to be fun.

 

6s? It lasts 3.

[Mapex]

I think he is more concerned about people calling it OP. 70 percent slow on the most powerful attack PFT is going to be very nice. 6 seconds of total burn is close to 12k health gone. It's going to be fun.

Really it's both. 5xPFT is powerful enough when it goes off already; the major problem is that the ability is very unresponsive and latency makes it so you don't see the damage immediately or you may miss entirely despite aiming at the enemy dead-on.

 

But soon it will be uninterruptible, slow for 70% (in essence rooting the enemy for the most part), and be easier to build up thanks to Immolate. When combined with an Immolate + RP preceding it, you will be able to kill lesser geared enemies outright and they won't be able to stop you, especially if their stuns are on cooldown and/or you are maxed out on Resolve. Against better geared foes you will need to throw in some more attacks but even then they aren't getting away from that FT finisher. Most people will be focused on blowing their stuns early to prevent you from obtaining 5 stacks as opposed to saving the stun for when you do decide to unleash the Flame Thrower.

 

6s? It lasts 3.

3 second for the Flame Thrower but 3 secs of GCD before it for the Immolate and Rocket Punch. Assuming it all crits, you will blow through 10k health easily assuming you and your opponent are in Champion gear.

 

I unleash this nasty combo already on live; 1.2 is just going to make it much easier to perform it. People blow their stuns early and I let Stabilized Armor soak up a lot of the damage. I may be at 30% and they at 70%, but I use my stuns at this moment (using Carbonize first to force them to waste their CC breaker) and I turn the fight around entirely.

 

I really hope they don't have the nerf AP after the 1.2 changes. I love the changes (and I've even suggested some of them in my AP thread), I just don't want them to have to undo some of them; it would suck if PyroTech was the only fun and effective DPS spec to play (as many feel is the case on live).

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mapex

[drenmar]

Extremely confident that Railshot is absolutely a complete waste in this tree, and that investing "7 points" (puncture, Serrated Blades, Charged Gauntlets) on a 15sec ability is beyond ridiculous, this is the spec I will be running. It maximized the use of FB spam to make FT the staple of the spec, with or without 5x stacks. RP/Immo when off of CD, and RB exclusively and ONLY for the snare, while taking all the utilities of tree.

http://r2-db.com/skill-tree/calculator/9/bounty-hunter/powertech#build=f030000002d8ee8cd1f6c00000000

 

I thought you needed to take all the RB related talents to be able to get the addition of the snare. Has that been changed or am I misinformed?

[Agooz]

I thought you needed to take all the RB related talents to be able to get the addition of the snare. Has that been changed or am I misinformed?

 

No you dont need any of it. The new talent Hamstring is going to replace Kolto Vents, which doesnt have any prerequisites.

[Mapex]

No you dont need any of it. The new talent Hamstring is going to replace Kolto Vents, which doesnt have any prerequisites.

 

Right, but Kolto Vents has nothing to do with Retractable Blade and Hamstring does; the latter talent will have RB as a prerequisite for obvious reasons. The question is, how will the chain work? Before we assume that Hamstring will be in the location of Kolto Vents as the patch notes indicate let's break down the other possibilities.

 

If Hamstring were at tier 3, then RB could chain horizontally to Hamstring and vertically to Serrated Blades, allowing you to forgo Serrated Blades and Charged Gauntlets. But tier 3 is already maxed out with 4 talents and there is no room for Hamstring there.

 

Hamstring could be at tier 4, but then you'd be required to pick up Serrated Blades and you would only be saving the one point from Charged Gauntlets. Probably not happening.

 

If Hamstring is indeed in Kolto Vents' location, and since you can't have a prerequisite chain go two different ways vertically, it makes sense that Charged Gauntlets will be the prerequisite to Hamstring. I'll see how fast I can level my PTS BH tomorrow to confirm the tree layout with a screenshot (I think my record Hutta full quest + datacron clear is 2 hrs 38 mins right now) but I am pretty sure we will have no choice but to spec for the entire RB line of talents if we want its slow as well.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Mapex

[TheOpf]

Really it's both. 5xPFT is powerful enough when it goes off already; the major problem is that the ability is very unresponsive and latency makes it so you don't see the damage immediately or you may miss entirely despite aiming at the enemy dead-on..

 

Absolutely, I buried a Marauder today, but latency caused me to miss him with 2 ticks of beautiful PFT. I had to kill him with a Immolate, RP. I can't wait for 1.2, and look forward to your comments about the PT server.

[Taerrik]

To those wondering, you do need to spec CG to get hamstring

 

You dont need hamstring to land flamethrower, it has a 70% snare.

 

In PvE, you should be trying to land PFT on cooldown, thus needing HEGC

 

In PvP, you shouldnt have the oppurtunity to use 5x PFT on cooldown anyway, if you can your playing against baddies. Thus the requirement to spam 5x FB isnt necessary, and you dont need HEGC, run IGC for survivability, as a 4-10m range class this is a significant boost to a AP spec.

[TheOpf]

To those wondering, you do need to spec CG to get hamstring

 

You dont need hamstring to land flamethrower, it has a 70% snare.

 

In PvE, you should be trying to land PFT on cooldown, thus needing HEGC

 

In PvP, you shouldnt have the oppurtunity to use 5x PFT on cooldown anyway, if you can your playing against baddies. Thus the requirement to spam 5x FB isnt necessary, and you dont need HEGC, run IGC for survivability, as a 4-10m range class this is a significant boost to a AP spec.

 

In pvp, a 70 percent snare on an uninterruptible channel why wouldn't I have the opportunity. I am in melee distance, I hit them with an immolate, that's stack 1, RP, than FB x4 with an RB if I need to snare. than drop PFT, why wouldn't I have that opportunity. Are opposing teams killing you that fast? Do you kill people within 12 seconds? Even if I do I now have a 5 stack pft waiting for the next person in pvp. HO plus pft will be amazing. No stuns, and no interrupt, again explain why you say don't use it?

[Taerrik]

What server do you play on where people will just allow me to do a rotation uninterupted.

 

My point is that you dont need HEGC, not that you dont want to use FT. The 15% in combat speed buff is un-needed. If you are speccing AP solely for PFT, you also dont need hamstring, its not hard to stay in 10m range to build 5 stacks, and its not hard to get in FT range after that.

 

For the same reason parakeet had damage and tank utility, AP can have damage and tank utility. You dont even need to put points into IGC for it to be useful.

 

 

 

Now if you just want to spam FB all day, then yes you need HEGC, but to pull off a buffed FT roughly every 20s which is more like what actually happens in a wz, you shouldnt need HEGC.

[TheOpf]

What server do you play on where people will just allow me to do a rotation uninterupted.

 

My point is that you dont need HEGC, not that you dont want to use FT. The 15% in combat speed buff is un-needed. If you are speccing AP solely for PFT, you also dont need hamstring, its not hard to stay in 10m range to build 5 stacks, and its not hard to get in FT range after that.

 

For the same reason parakeet had damage and tank utility, AP can have damage and tank utility. You dont even need to put points into IGC for it to be useful.

 

 

 

Now if you just want to spam FB all day, then yes you need HEGC, but to pull off a buffed FT roughly every 20s which is more like what actually happens in a wz, you shouldnt need HEGC.

 

The 5 stack takes time to go away. It doesn't stack on the person you are attacking, but on yourself. So you can hit FBx5 and then switch to the healer to barbeque. Do you die that fast that you can't get a 5 stack up?

 

You do realize that there is free venting by being in HEGC. It also buffs the damage of every attack we use in the tree by 8 percent if specced correctly. Hamstring won't be necessary, but apparently you never have people run away from you, and keep running away while attacking you.

 

The free venting and 8 percent damage buff are why we use HEGC. You lose a significant portion of damage by using IGC. The only people using IGC are those who spec into the dot for the slow. If you are using IGC and not speccing into the dot or the slow than you are doing it wrong. In 1.2 we will no longer need the slow because we will have two of them.

 

Apparently you have never played AP, because no one spams FB all day, but everyone uses FB regularly in a fight. It's Immolate, RP, FBx5 that's how simple it is. If you are playing pyro you are doing TD, IM, RS/RP/RS/FB - still the same length of a rotation. So by the time the Pyro is waiting for a Proc, the AP is ready to drop PFT. I am not sure how that is complicated or why you think it would take me forever to get there.

[kbstealer]

AP/Tactics is a good spec to use, i love it. I was pyro/assault until very recently and i can say pretty confidently that AP/Tactics is fine. What people seem to forget is that pyro is squishy rdps and ap is tanky melee dps. you lose burst/damage and gain survivability and mobility enhancements.

 

The tradeoffs are fine for what you get, its just a different playstyle. I lost on avg about 150k+ worth of damage per wz switching from pyro to ap and in return i can hold off upto 4 people for a decent amount of time instead of getting bursted down fast.

 

I like it, it works for me because i make it work, yes pyro is more damage but damage doesnt always win wz, staying alive however does win wz.

[exphryl]

AP/Tactics is a good spec to use, i love it. I was pyro/assault until very recently and i can say pretty confidently that AP/Tactics is fine. What people seem to forget is that pyro is squishy rdps and ap is tanky melee dps. you lose burst/damage and gain survivability and mobility enhancements.

 

The tradeoffs are fine for what you get, its just a different playstyle. I lost on avg about 150k+ worth of damage per wz switching from pyro to ap and in return i can hold off upto 4 people for a decent amount of time instead of getting bursted down fast.

 

I like it, it works for me because i make it work, yes pyro is more damage but damage doesnt always win wz, staying alive however does win wz.

 

Honestly, due to Energy Shield cooldown in Pyro, I'd say Pyro actually has better survivability than AP. (And if you consider 20% Reduction on Stun awesome, you are still stunned taking a lot of damage and not able to put out the burst needed to overcome it)

 

H.O is good to get out of roots and make a vain attempt at getting away, but it's only a temporary solution to survival in a battle.

 

So I'm a bit confused how you can hold off 4 people for a decent amount of time =/

 

AP needs some talent defensive cooldowns or passives added. That i'm guessing was on a post-it in a trashcan of one of the developers though.

Edited April 9, 2012 by exphryl

[BlazingShadow]

Honestly, due to Energy Shield cooldown in Pyro, I'd say Pyro actually has better survivability than AP. (And if you consider 20% Reduction on Stun awesome, you are still stunned taking a lot of damage and not able to put out the burst needed to overcome it)

 

H.O is good to get out of roots and make a vain attempt at getting away, but it's only a temporary solution to survival in a battle.

 

So I'm a bit confused how you can hold off 4 people for a decent amount of time =/

 

AP needs some talent defensive cooldowns or passives added. That i'm guessing was on a post-it in a trashcan of one of the developers though.

 

I'm telling you. as someone who has been trying all trees, all specs for months now. AP doesn't need more. It's alot closer to balanced pre-1.2 than you think, you just haven't a clue how to work it.

 

After 1.2 not only is it a good tree to use, but it's going to be lolzy to have an uninterruptable PFT firing off with HO up. Sure, you can get stunned and it's still lost, but even that's a gift because they wasted a stun on what is your icing-on-the-cake ability.

 

After 1.2 not only can you keep up and catch up with classes 90% of the time with your PBoots and HO, but now we'll have a 50% snare added to our blade... I don't know how to explain this to you guys... A good AP is going to wreck any other class.

[exphryl]

I'm telling you. as someone who has been trying all trees, all specs for months now. AP doesn't need more. It's alot closer to balanced pre-1.2 than you think, you just haven't a clue how to work it.

 

After 1.2 not only is it a good tree to use, but it's going to be lolzy to have an uninterruptable PFT firing off with HO up. Sure, you can get stunned and it's still lost, but even that's a gift because they wasted a stun on what is your icing-on-the-cake ability.

 

After 1.2 not only can you keep up and catch up with classes 90% of the time with your PBoots and HO, but now we'll have a 50% snare added to our blade... I don't know how to explain this to you guys... A good AP is going to wreck any other class.

 

Obligatory as somebody who has been trying all three trees for months also (Since apparently that is pertinent to a person like yourself). It's obvious to anybody with eyes, that AP needs assistance.

 

Why is it when ever somebody that is gung-ho about AP is questioned, it's followed with "You just don't know how to use the spec". This is neither helpful nor useful to the discussion.

 

I'll throw one out there too, you play the other specs so poorly that you are convinced AP is fine because you can play that spec moderately.

 

See how constructive it was? It wasn't...

Edited April 9, 2012 by exphryl

[Agooz]

I'm telling you. as someone who has been trying all trees, all specs for months now. AP doesn't need more. It's alot closer to balanced pre-1.2 than you think, you just haven't a clue how to work it.

 

After 1.2 not only is it a good tree to use, but it's going to be lolzy to have an uninterruptable PFT firing off with HO up. Sure, you can get stunned and it's still lost, but even that's a gift because they wasted a stun on what is your icing-on-the-cake ability.

 

After 1.2 not only can you keep up and catch up with classes 90% of the time with your PBoots and HO, but now we'll have a 50% snare added to our blade... I don't know how to explain this to you guys... A good AP is going to wreck any other class.

 

I dont understand what server do you APs playing where your foes are constantly trying to run away from you. Hec even healers dont try to run, just merely use their speed boost to put distance between them and you, which grapple counters very easily.

 

As an AP you are very rarely shocking people with your damage, that they are going to say "wow, it's an AP spec PT, I better try to run away". FT is NOT the icing on the cake? It must be the STAPLE of the tree, otherwise YOU are doing something wrong. To say that FT is just an added benefit to the tree and shouldnt really rely on it, is ridiculous. In PvE, the ONLY way to have AP come close to Pyro dps, is by making sure FT is always part of the rotation.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Agooz

[Agooz]

 

I'll throw one out there too, you play the other specs so poorly that you are convinced AP is fine because you can play that spec moderately.

 

See how constructive it was? It wasn't...

 

Actually there is a lot more truth in that statement than the other way around. lol