Mace and Yoda Vs Palpatine=game over

[budziolus]

In the novel, he also told Palps to not resist and get arrested.

 

 

Plaps could have went along with it and got arrested. And then say the Jedi couldm't prove anything and that their traitors. In front of the Courts.

 

If I remeber after Jedi Masters enter Palpatine's office they almost immediately ignite theirs lightsabers - the only thing Palpatine done was self defense;p And after Jedi traitors attack Palpatine go to Senate with evidences to tell them about this.

Next thing, not Palpatine start the war. In Attack of the Clones I saw a little green goblin who took army of the clones to Geonosis to save few Jedi Knights. First, it was selfish to use army created for Republic for such things and for second before battle of Geonosic I don't remember any war at all;p There was something like Confederation of Independent Systems led by Count Dooku but it was more political organization;p

[sambeta]

If I remeber after Jedi Masters enter Palpatine's office they almost immediately ignite theirs lightsabers - the only thing Palpatine done was self defense;p And after Jedi traitors attack Palpatine go to Senate with evidences to tell them about this.

Next thing, not Palpatine start the war. In Attack of the Clones I saw a little green goblin who took army of the clones to Geonosis to save few Jedi Knights. First, it was selfish to use army created for Republic for such things and for second before battle of Geonosic I don't remember any war at all;p There was something like Confederation of Independent Systems led by Count Dooku but it was more political organization;p

 

 

You are glossing over what actually happened. Palpatine used the army that was commissioned by him and Sifo Dias to manipulate the jedi into war. Obi-Wan, Anakin and more importantly a member of the senate were due to be executed. It's seems your perception is massively off. And a political order do not arrange executions of senators from other establishments. This in itself could be seen as an act of war. And why did they have such a massive battle force if they were merely a political organization?

 

Palpatines entire plan was to start a war by manipulation and use of his puppet Dooku.

 

Yes the jedi's ignite their sabers, in preparation for the sith lord. They're not stupid a sith NEVER gives up power willingly. But they gave him the opportunity to do so by announcing his arrest. Think of them like armed police, they don't just fire at will and kill, they give a chance to whoever is threatening life and if the suspect ignores the warnings they are forced into action.

Edited April 4, 2012 by sambeta

[budziolus]

Why go to a senate that is completely under Palpatine's control through is manipulations? Palpatine not only activity sought out to kill all jedi from the beginning of the conflict but to dominate the galaxy through force, incite xenophobia and crush everyone or everything that wasn't human.

 

Palpatine from the beginning was evil. He overstayed his term in office through manipulating the senate with false information. He would never relente power even if the jedi went through the senate. Palpatine was the king of spin. The fact he managed to process and execute order 66 say's this much.

 

He manipulated the entire order and blinded them to his true plan, which was to make them out as the bad guys. He succeeded.

 

There are many times in the clone wars series that the senate comes to the vote to end the war through peace. Palpatine always finds a way to ignore the motion and comes out with a scheme to make the separatist force seem completely abhorrent to peace. This doesn't stand true as many planets wanted peace.

 

Well, if Jedi weren't believe in Senate, why they still served Republic Senate in the first place?

And stop saying Palpatine was controlling whole Senate, he was supported by majority of senator because he was good politic and good leader, that's all.

And many planets it's not majority.

What the Republic has to offer to galaxy? Corruption? Tolerate of slavery on planets like Tatooine? Neverending argues in Senate? Emperor Palpatine brought peace, justice and security to whole galaxy, isn't that enough?

Kenobi said that only Sith deals with absolute, but I see here than not only;p You are all assuming Palpatine is evil because he is a Sith, that is so wrong;p

[sambeta]

Well, if Jedi weren't believe in Senate, why they still served Republic Senate in the first place?

And stop saying Palpatine was controlling whole Senate, he was supported by majority of senator because he was good politic and good leader, that's all.

And many planets it's not majority.

What the Republic has to offer to galaxy? Corruption? Tolerate of slavery on planets like Tatooine? Neverending argues in Senate? Emperor Palpatine brought peace, justice and security to whole galaxy, isn't that enough?

Kenobi said that only Sith deals with absolute, but I see here than not only;p You are all assuming Palpatine is evil because he is a Sith, that is so wrong;p

 

 

Oh my word. The Jedi from the start were said to serve the republic by brokering peace and sorting galactic conflicts out (being ambassadors). They even said that in the time of war they were completely un-prepared for what lied ahead. You're taking what I posted completely out of context. No one is free of corruption of some sort. Palpatine was controlling the senate by controlling the information they saw. Once you control a flow of information you ultimately control people. You see this many times in the clone wars. The empire bought slavery of other races, xenophobia, execution of anyone who would be construed as a traitor, he built a planet crushing station to keep others in line by fear. Not to mention that he fed off the living force of others (the stranded refugees of alderaan) when he offered them a new home.

 

Don't forget he did away with the senate ultimately so his ruling Moffs could dicate what was to happen in their regions without any votes or form of democracy. Palpatine was a piller of corruption, his own personal gain instead of the people he "served" proved that. And the orchestration of the clone war to remain in power further goes to prove this.

 

Evil if defined by evil actions. When it comes to evil actions he personifies evil.

Edited April 4, 2012 by sambeta

[budziolus]

You are glossing over what actually happened. Palpatine used the army that was commissioned by him and Sifo Dias to manipulate the jedi into war. Obi-Wan, Anakin and more importantly a member of the senate were due to be executed. It's seems your perception is massively off. And a political order do not arrange executions of senators from other establishments. This in itself could be seen as an act of war. And why did they have such a massive battle force if they were merely a political organization?

 

Palpatines entire plan was to start a war by manipulation and use of his puppet Dooku.

 

Yes the jedi's ignite their sabers, in preparation for the sith lord. They're not stupid a sith NEVER gives up power willingly. But they gave him the opportunity to do so by announcing his arrest. Think of them like armed police, they don't just fire at will and kill, they give a chance to whoever is threatening life and if the suspect ignores the warnings they are forced into action.

 

You are mistaken about great many things...

Army of the clones was ordered for the Republic by Sifo because he sensed something bad will happen to the Republic. Dooku and Sidious found out about it, kill him and left the army to use someday in future. But it was still Yoda who uses this army to attack CIS and start a war, it's just a fact;p You can't attack other country just because they have massive battle force;p Palpatine didn't do anything wrong, he just wanted to make galaxy a better place;)

[sambeta]

You are mistaken about great many things...

Army of the clones was ordered for the Republic by Sifo because he sensed something bad will happen to the Republic. Dooku and Sidious found out about it, kill him and left the army to use someday in future. But it was still Yoda who uses this army to attack CIS and start a war, it's just a fact;p You can't attack other country just because they have massive battle force;p Palpatine didn't do anything wrong, he just wanted to make galaxy a better place;)

 

Actually Syfo Dias went to Palpatine to inform him of his visions, because the jedi council wouldn't listen. Palpatine commissioned this action. You gloss over my statement about putting a senator from the republic up for execution. In any form or way this would be an act of war. Not to mention the execution of ambassadors. Syfo didn't search for a template of the clone army. Dooku did. The army was to remain hidden so that Palpatine could force the jedi's hand.

 

You just don't get that it is solely Palpatine that manipulates and plays every one, from Anakin and the republic too Dooku and the CIS.

 

Palpatine didn't want to make the galaxy a better place at all. He made it into a dictatorship where by he ruled by fear. Anakin on the other hand believed he was making the galaxy a better place. Palpatine wasn't under such delusions. He made it a better place for himself.

Edited April 4, 2012 by sambeta

[budziolus]

You said that Evil if defined by evil actions.

You are saying the Jedi are good and Palpatine is evil:

1. Is trying to kill supported by majority of the senate leader good?

2. Is borrowing Republic army and risking war with billions of casualties for rescue few Jedi Knight good?

3. Is lying to kid, that his father is dead and try to trick him to kill his own father good?

Good and evil often depends on point of view;p

The main problem with the Jedi was their arrogance and hipocrisy - they can kill everyone in the name of light;p they can lie to people for greater good;p they can serve the Republic against Republic Senate;p

[Wolfninjajedi]

(In canon films are always higher than novel by the way)

.

 

No they are not, the films and the novelizations of the films are all G-canon.

[ScarletBlaze]

In summary, the books came out after the movies. In the books however I found a new appreciation for exactly how BA Palpatine was. If I recall correctly, he was moving so fast that two of the Jedi were dead before they even realized anything happened.

 

Windu had no way of knowing exactly how powerful Palpatine was. With the Jedi spread so thin all over as a result of the war, (also a product of Palpatines power) they had no choice but to confront him the way they did.

 

Don't be tricked into thinking that just because he was an old man he wasnt EXTREMELY powerful in the Force.

 

Have to correct you on one item:

 

Revenge of the Sith Book: Published Date: April 2, 2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_III:_Revenge_of_the_Sith_(novel)

 

Revenge of the Sith Movie: Release Date: May 19 2005

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766

 

So the book was released before the movie.

Edited April 4, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[sambeta]

You said that Evil if defined by evil actions.

You are saying the Jedi are good and Palpatine is evil:

1. Is trying to kill supported by majority of the senate leader good?

2. Is borrowing Republic army and risking war with billions of casualties for rescue few Jedi Knight good?

3. Is lying to kid, that his father is dead and try to trick him to kill his own father good?

Good and evil often depends on point of view;p

The main problem with the Jedi was their arrogance and hipocrisy - they can kill everyone in the name of light;p they can lie to people for greater good;p they can serve the Republic against Republic Senate;p

 

 

1:The actions of a single person do not reflect on others. Mace was falling to the darkside with his actions no doubt, but he started with good intentions. From the start of the fight he did announce he was there to arrest Palpyface.

 

2: The reasoning for their execution in itself is a foul one. There is no trial, no reasoning behind it. A war was due to start either way, through execution and the first initial act of hostility from the CIS side.

 

3: Yeah that would of been great wouldn't it: "Hey Luke just a massive f bomb for you, your father is a dark lord of the sith that's hunted down and murdered many jedi children and adults alike. He's also been known to kill anyone who opposes his ideals or beliefs for his empire. Oh and he also choked your mother before your death causing her to lose her will to live I hope this doesn't make you want to go on a killing spree and turn you to the dark side but you need to know these things!"

 

Jedi are as arrogant as the sith are. The jedi principal is defense not attack. The sith is strike first and eliminate anyone who opposes them.

Edited April 4, 2012 by sambeta

[budziolus]

I know that Sidious = Palpatine, and that he "manipulate" everything and everyone in this.

But for me that doesn't make him evil. Maybe sometimes he does something wrong, but this was for greater good. Just like Jedi always do;p

He have to destroy the Republic because Republic wasn't working anymore, just like Padme said in Phantom Menace. He didn't takeover the power like Jedi wanted to do. He was chosen by majority of the Republic itself.

Galactic Empire was far more better than Galactic Republic.

For example:

Republic forbidden slavery but it existed, in Empire at least it was taxed;p

[sambeta]

I know that Sidious = Palpatine, and that he "manipulate" everything and everyone in this.

But for me that doesn't make him evil. Maybe sometimes he does something wrong, but this was for greater good. Just like Jedi always do;p

He have to destroy the Republic because Republic wasn't working anymore, just like Padme said in Phantom Menace. He didn't takeover the power like Jedi wanted to do. He was chosen by majority of the Republic itself.

Galactic Empire was far more better than Galactic Republic.

For example:

Republic forbidden slavery but it existed, in Empire at least it was taxed;p

 

What a blind ignorant statement. The Republic forbid slavery.... On the worlds that were members. Those who didn't join the Republic were open to their own set of rules. Those under the rule of the Hutts such as Tatooine were ripe with slavery because the heads of those territories deemed it to be legal.

 

The empire ruled every planet by fear and those who broke out of line or didn't pay their way were punished. There was no freedom of sorts. Look at it this way. We don't march into China and tell them they're wrong for the way they run things.

 

Padmé was manipulated into voting the then supreme chancellor out of power, by Palpyface through the conflict which he orchestrated on Naboo.

[budziolus]

1:The actions of a single person do not reflect on others. Mace was falling to the darkside with his actions no doubt, but he started with good intentions. From the start of the fight he did announce he was there to arrest Palpyface.

 

2: The reasoning for their execution in itself is a foul one. There is no trial, no reasoning behind it. A war was due to start either way, through execution and the first initial act of hostility from the CIS side.

 

3: Yeah that would of been great wouldn't it: "Hey Luke just a massive f bomb for you, your father is a dark lord of the sith that's hunted down and murdered many jedi children and adults alike. He's also been known to kill anyone who opposes his ideals or beliefs for his empire. Oh and he also choked your mother before your death causing her to lose her will to live I hope this doesn't make you want to go on a killing spree and turn you to the dark side but you need to know these things!"

 

Jedi are as arrogant as the sith are. The jedi principal is defense not attack. The sith is strike first and eliminate anyone who opposes them.

 

About arrogance - Sith at least didn't give you that crap about peace, wisdom, serenity etc. about defence - it's Yoda who came to kill Palpatine and it is Kenobi who travel to Mustafar to kill Anakin (Obi also first ignite his lightsaber).

Execution - there was a scene for that but unfortunately was cutted from movie, and Padme, Anakin and Obi didn't were on Geonosis as Senator and Ambassadors - they were spies. That's quite big diffrence.

I think you are justify every Jedi action and make a devil incarnate from Palpatine just because he is Sith. And Kenobi says that only Sith deals with absolute;p

[sambeta]

About arrogance - Sith at least didn't give you that crap about peace, wisdom, serenity etc. about defence - it's Yoda who came to kill Palpatine and it is Kenobi who travel to Mustafar to kill Anakin (Obi also first ignite his lightsaber).

Execution - there was a scene for that but unfortunately was cutted from movie, and Padme, Anakin and Obi didn't were on Geonosis as Senator and Ambassadors - they were spies. That's quite big diffrence.

I think you are justify every Jedi action and make a devil incarnate from Palpatine just because he is Sith. And Kenobi says that only Sith deals with absolute;p

 

Kenobi originally travelled to Geonosis in pursuit of the Bounty hunter that was contracted to kill Padmé. Not to spy on the CIS. Anakin and Padmé then went to rescue Kenobi, yet again not to spy.

 

You forget the jedi are set to defeat the sith. Yoda went to palpatines office to end the war between jedi and sith. Both can't exist at the same time without conflict. Yoda didn't go to Palpyfaces office to kill and take over his mantle of power.

 

After finding out that Anakin wouldn't listen to reason the only thing left for them to do was fight. Kenobi even tried to convince Anakin and talk him down before any action was taken.

 

And the execution scene wasn't cut from AOTC? It played out as it was meant to, they struggled to survive the area which was meant to be their execution. What would of happened if they killed the beasts outright? Oh yeah that's right the driods would of come in and shot them down.

Edited April 4, 2012 by sambeta

[Maaruin]

I think you are justify every Jedi action and make a devil incarnate from Palpatine just because he is Sith.

 

Do I have to justify everything the US and Britain did during World War II to call Hitler evil?

 

Do I have to justify everything the Jedi did to call Palpatine evil?

 

(Sorry for RL example.)

[sambeta]

Do I have to justify everything the US and Britain did during World War II to call Hitler evil?

 

Do I have to justify everything the Jedi did to call Palpatine evil?

 

(Sorry for RL example.)

 

 

That was my point exactly. He's a Palpyface fan there's no reasoning with them

[Captain_Zone]

Do I have to justify everything the US and Britain did during World War II to call Hitler evil?

 

Do I have to justify everything the Jedi did to call Palpatine evil?

 

(Sorry for RL example.)

 

Understandable, but I'd compare Palpatine to Machiavelli. Extremely intelligent and extremely manipulative. Nothing he did was as OVERTLY evil as your example. He didn't try to conquer the Republic. He just replaced it with the Galactic Empire. His plan was 99.9% flawless. The execution of his plan? Not so much. lol

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending what he did. He was evil to the bone.

[Maaruin]

Understandable, but I'd compare Palpatine to Machiavelli. Extremely intelligent and extremely manipulative. Nothing he did was as OVERTLY evil as your example. He didn't try to conquer the Republic. He just replaced it with the Galactic Empire. His plan was 99.9% flawless. The execution of his plan? Not so much. lol

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending what he did. He was evil to the bone.

 

He did plan to exterminate the Jedi from the beginning. It might be not as evil as Hitler's extermination plan, but it is definitly more than Machiavelli would suggest.

[Captain_Zone]

He did plan to exterminate the Jedi from the beginning. It might be not as evil as Hitler's extermination plan, but it is definitly more than Machiavelli would suggest.

 

Oh, Palpatine puts Machiavelli to shame. Makes him look like an amateur. And instead of exterminating a civilian populace just because he needed a scapegoat, as your example did, exterminating the Jedi makes sense as far as securing his power base. They were the only ones who could oppose him.

[budziolus]

You forget the jedi are set to defeat the sith. Yoda went to palpatines office to end the war between jedi and sith. Both can't exist at the same time without conflict. Yoda didn't go to Palpyfaces office to kill and take over his mantle of power.

 

So Palpatine and Vader weren't evil because they were set to defeat Jedi;p

[Maaruin]

Oh, Palpatine puts Machiavelli to shame. Makes him look like an amateur. And instead of exterminating a civilian populace just because he needed a scapegoat, as your example did, exterminating the Jedi makes sense as far as securing his power base. They were the only ones who could oppose him.

 

I kind of agree. But I think Palpatine had two reasons to exterminate the Jedi:

 

1. as you said, the political reason: They could oppose him.

2. the ideological/"religios" reason: He was a Sith and the Sith (at least since Bane) wanted to destroy the Jedi, their archenemy.

 

 

My example also had two reasons.

 

1. political: as a scapegoat

2. ideological: also seeing them as kind of archenemy or archparasite.

 

 

Palpatines goals here are "saner", but they still are similar.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Maaruin

[ScarletBlaze]

About arrogance - Sith at least didn't give you that crap about peace, wisdom, serenity etc. about defence - it's Yoda who came to kill Palpatine and it is Kenobi who travel to Mustafar to kill Anakin (Obi also first ignite his lightsaber).

Execution - there was a scene for that but unfortunately was cutted from movie, and Padme, Anakin and Obi didn't were on Geonosis as Senator and Ambassadors - they were spies. That's quite big diffrence.

I think you are justify every Jedi action and make a devil incarnate from Palpatine just because he is Sith. And Kenobi says that only Sith deals with absolute;p

 

Regarding Obi igniting his lightsaber first look at this clip

 

 

http://www.fanpop.com/spots/anakin-and-padme/videos/19277991/title/anakin-padme-mustafar-scene-hd

 

note that Anakin threatens to kill him and even states he is his enemy prior to obi wan igniting his saber, so Anakin was the one that forced his hand.

 

Anakin was given a few choices to leave with Padme he refused to do so. I think obi-wan was justified in drawing his saber. I know if someone threatens to kill me or says I'm his enemy then I would do the same and I think most would too.

 

And Palpatine had already had Order 66 in the works prior to them finding out he was a Sith Lord. He had every intention of destroying the Jedi and even sent Anakin to kill the younglings (children). It's one thing to kill the Jedi in a war but it is quite another to kill children being trained.

Edited April 4, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[BucMan]

Just wanted to add that it is possible to portray Palpatine as a blur in the movie. It's called slow motion. While the Jedi are moving in slow motion(any movement will be able to show this) palpatine is moving at regular speed thus appearing to be moving faster. If true, I'm very disappointed that GL and the FX crew "couldn't" make it work. Hell, just have Palps turn into a shadow with some sort of red blade and take out the first two quick, FX could easily manipulate a shadow figure into the things the book describes.

 

But what you can't do is have the scene go regular speed and make the jedi "look" inept. You have to have SOME kind of catch for why they looked that way. And it has to be in the movie.

 

Palpatine made them look stupid by ______. Sorry, but Palpatine made them look stupid because he was fast doesn't fly when it took more than a second for him to leave the chair and hit his first victim. Jedi can see things before they happen.

 

The scene plays out better if he seperates the men using force powers or what not and then either thru saber skills, raw power(like Yoda does when dueling) or other force abilities takes them all out.

 

Just like the "wuss" jedi that Jango shot on the balcony in AOTC. Some things should have been changed to keep up the notion that the Jedi are powerful. As it is, if your name isn't Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Obiwan, Luke, or Quigon, you are no better than a novice with a lightsaber.

Edited April 4, 2012 by BucMan

[Tuscad]

Regarding Obi igniting his lightsaber first look at this clip

 

 

http://www.fanpop.com/spots/anakin-and-padme/videos/19277991/title/anakin-padme-mustafar-scene-hd

 

note that Anakin threatens to kill him and even states he is his enemy prior to obi wan igniting his saber, so Anakin was the one that forced his hand.

 

Anakin was given a few choices to leave with Padme he refused to do so. I think obi-wan was justified in drawing his saber. I know if someone threatens to kill me or says I'm his enemy then I would do the same and I think most would too.

 

And Palpatine had already had Order 66 in the works prior to them finding out he was a Sith Lord. He had every intention of destroying the Jedi and even sent Anakin to kill the younglings (children). It's one thing to kill the Jedi in a war but it is quite another to kill children being trained.

 

Luke also ignites his lightsaber first in Episode V and I think he does so in VI as well.

[P-Funk]

I reject this "read the books" retconning of failed film satisfaction nonsense.

 

If the movie looked stupid then it was stupid. If you can't believe how dumb the Jedi were then you believe it and no book is going to change that. Official novelizations change nothing. The movie was stupid, I can't believe the Jedi were sacred guardians of democracy when they were that dumb and BTW apparently Palatine's secret power is to lower Jedi IQ, especially when they attempt to confront him.

 

Explaining things to me in a "This is actually how it is though" manner doesn't make a difference to me. You can't make a movie then have to explain to everyone afterwards how its supposed to be received.

 

It never holds together. Mace Windu has the biggest secret in Republic history and what does he do? Apparently involve only the 2 most incompetent duelists in the order and not bother to tell anyone else... hmm. Why not just like... bring a news reporter with you? How about block off the entire building and bring in a whole armada of Jedi?

 

Its one of those things that was incompetence to justify how Palatine could get away with all this.

 

Its a bad scene, its a poorly written movie, the whole thing makes no sense and only the fanbois are going to accept it cause they just accept everything. People who actually have their heads in proper writing and story telling and film making just look at it and say "Well that was stupid."