A Request for Raid-Wide Combat Logs

[KiranK]

And it's not the fault of the hand grenade when children blow themselves up with them. That doesn't mean it's okay to give hand grenades to children.

 

That's a totally irrelevant and biased comparison. There is no relationship between hand grenades and combat logs. Exaggerating and stacking your argument doesn't make it convincing. In any rate, myself and several other gamers, have already generated a way to bypass Bioware's self only combat log to make it raid wide. The discussion at hand is moot. The only thing they can do at this point is make it easier for us.

[judgeholden]

Parsing should be real time and not require emails or file sharing after a fight to review. As I stated while condescending, make a toggle if you don't want to share your logs, you can turn it off.

 

What is so threatening about metrics to grade performance? Especially if it's optional. Again, if you don't want to play with 'elitists' there's a big enough population to find someone else. Considering how polarizing this argument seems to be for some, why would you want to play with the big jerk faces that like that kinda stuff. They're obviously snobs that want to ruin your day.

[DawnAskham]

You do realize how condescending your comments are right? Too be honest I'm not against or for public combat logs, if they happen they happen no real skin of my back BUT I do understand why some people don't want them.

 

The ONLY arguments I have seen in this thread FOR combat logs is that it "helps people improve" but the current system can already do this so that argument is moot. The other argument is that it's "too hard/too much work" to share the logs in their current form but it has already been stated that people are working on systems that will allow easy sharing of combat logs so that argument is also moot.

 

This whole argument comes down to ONE thing, that you "FOR" public combat logs people seem to be missing.

 

CHOICE

 

let me caps that one again for you.

 

CHOICE

 

In its current form people have the choice to share their logs or not to share them, if you don't want to play with someone who won't share you also have the choice to not play with them. If there are public combat logs everyone's data is free for everyone else to see, and those who don't wish to share are forced too, taking away their choice. Regardless of their reasons or what you may think they may be, they have a right to chose, and you have no right to demand otherwise.

 

If you were an adult as you claim you would understand this. Being an adult is not simply about age, its about how you act, and honestly you and a lot of others in this forum are acting arrogant and condescending, which makes me doubt your "we are adults" claim.

 

I suggest you read all of my comments as I've clearly stated I do not have issues with giving people the choice to share or not share (as in opt in / opt out check box). If you did know me, you would know I almost always side with providing individuals with choice and privacy when it is an option.

 

I've also made it clear that I don't feel all players against logs are inherently bad players, though I stand by my belief that players against logs are either afraid of how their performance will be judged or afraid they will be pressured to make changes (such as to their specs or rotations).

 

Personally I feel most are dealing with irrational fears and would have little likelihood of having anyone treat them negatively if their logs were shared, though it is clear there are subsets that know they can't or won't perform up to community norms that wish to 'hide' their performance.

 

Oh and lastly, I've been through this debate on combat logs, meters, and add-ons in several other games, and it is inevitable that more data will be forthcoming in an easier to use format which may at some point even include in-game parsing / live meters.

 

It won't happen because of anything specifically stated in this thread anymore than anything stated in this thread will keep it from happening.

 

It will happen because Bioware will need to keep their game competitive with everything else that is out there today.

[krinaman]

That's a totally irrelevant and biased comparison. There is no relationship between hand grenades and combat logs. Exaggerating and stacking your argument doesn't make it convincing. In any rate, myself and several other gamers, have already generated a way to bypass Bioware's self only combat log to make it raid wide. The discussion at hand is moot. The only thing they can do at this point is make it easier for us.

 

The relationship is that they are both inanimate objects incapable of being at fault.

 

I simply applied the same logic used for logs/meters to hand granades. The obvious point being that simply because something is not at fault doesn't make it a good idea. My exaggerated example makes that obvious.

 

I also wouldn't say the discussion is moot. The compromise BW came up with may just make meters inconconvient enough that few will use them. However, I'm expecting to wipe more as members of my guild get tunnel vision trying to top the meters.

[krinaman]

Personally I feel most are dealing with irrational fears and would have little likelihood of having anyone treat them negatively if their logs were shared, though it is clear there are subsets that know they can't or won't perform up to community norms that wish to 'hide' their performance.

 

Seriously? I typically topped the meters (Ya, I must be lying) in other games and could write pages of stories regarding meters.

[Ginnai]

Oh and lastly, I've been through this debate on combat logs, meters, and add-ons in several other games, and it is inevitable that more data will be forthcoming in an easier to use format which may at some point even include in-game parsing / live meters.

 

There is enough data already to perform live raid meters, I've already proven it with a working solution and I would imagine I'm not the only one that has made or is working on such a system. It's not as "convenient" as some would like, but the data you need certainly exists. So, it's really a pointless argument since as it stands today, people who want the data can get it.

[Blotter]

That's a totally irrelevant and biased comparison. There is no relationship between hand grenades and combat logs. Exaggerating and stacking your argument doesn't make it convincing. In any rate, myself and several other gamers, have already generated a way to bypass Bioware's self only combat log to make it raid wide. The discussion at hand is moot. The only thing they can do at this point is make it easier for us.

 

Have fun with the banhammer if you ever get caught trying to peak at other peoples' combat logs who never gave you permission to see them.

[Cbrinegar]

look another blah ..blah.. combat logs for the raid..blah ..blah i want to throw around my epeen thread.....ugh

[Blotter]

i suggest you read all of my comments as i've clearly stated i do not have issues with giving people the choice to share or not share (as in opt in / opt out check box). If you did know me, you would know i almost always side with providing individuals with choice and privacy when it is an option.

 

I've also made it clear that i don't feel all players against logs are inherently bad players, though i stand by my belief that players against logs are either afraid of how their performance will be judged or afraid they will be pressured to make changes (such as to their specs or rotations).

 

nobody's afraid of anything. We know how these things turn out from having observed the effect in other games and contexts. Not only does it have a measurable, verifiable negative effect on the community, but they start to become an absolute requirement built into boss encounters and their design, such that there is no avoiding the logs and meters and their negative influence on the game and the community no matter what. People want to play the game, not stare at logs/meters/spreadsheets instead of actually focusing on the content. All in the naem of what? Elitism and some misplaced delusional feeling that you accomplished something really hard because it was designed to require you to play with logs and meters? Sorry, but hard is trial and error based on learned skill actually playing, not peaking behind the curtain at the game's underlying mechanics.

 

personally i feel most are dealing with irrational fears and would have little likelihood of having anyone treat them negatively if their logs were shared, though it is clear there are subsets that know they can't or won't perform up to community norms that wish to 'hide' their performance.

 

more condescension? Really...people who amke this argument that "people against logs have irrational fears of persecution" or that "people against logs are just baddies who don't want it discovered"...guess what? You prove the point that people will behave in an elitist manner, judging and condescending to others in the community. What you fail to understand is that people against what you're demanding are not against logs. I fully plan to share my data files with my guild and raids. What we're against is your demand that nobody be allowed to keep them private if they so choose. That doesn't happen even if it's made a toggle/switch in your preferences because the toggle/switch would simply become the peer pressure point. The compromise has to be the way bw has done it because you look like a jackhole running around demanding that people share their uploadable files. If it were just a switch, people would be judged for not flipping it and it would defeat the purpose of trying to find a compromise. So yeah...we're defending the compromise not telling you that you shuoldn't have any logs/meters at all.

 

oh and lastly, i've been through this debate on combat logs, meters, and add-ons in several other games, and it is inevitable that more data will be forthcoming in an easier to use format which may at some point even include in-game parsing / live meters.

 

It won't happen because of anything specifically stated in this thread anymore than anything stated in this thread will keep it from happening.

 

it's certainly true that bw can and will do whatever it wants willy-nilly and i think everyone realizes that (especially healing sorcs and mercs right now haha). However, all we have to go on is what bw has already said, and they've made it pretty clear that (a) they do not want a system in place that encourages the kind of pervasive judgment and elitism seen in other games as a result of these "tools" and (b) they don't want you looking at logs/meters/spreadsheets while playing...they want you playing and reacting and strategizing based on what you see on your screen...not what yuo see in little windows that give yo a peak behind the screen, so to speak.

 

it will happen because bioware will need to keep their game competitive with everything else that is out there today.

 

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Edited April 3, 2012 by Blotter

[sonickat]

Only allow raid-wide logs in hard modes and nightmare modes. Problem solved. If you don't wanna be judged go do story mode.

[dmtvaroha]

Thinking and reading on this more, my biggest fear is that the game will become too difficult to be fun.

 

I think that the developers want a certain difficulty in Flashpoints and Ops. Players want to down these objectives faster than the developers see as optimal. When tools become available for players to more easily defeat the objectives, the difficulty has to be ramped up, and then the tools become "necessary" to defeat the encounter. It then becomes a circle of self-perpetuating devices: tools vs. design.

 

I'll admit that this already exists. I just don't want the whole thing escalated so that even normal mode Heroic+2 or Flash Points become unbeatable without meters. I'm ok with Nightmare or even Hard Mode needing whatever tools the "hardcore" community deems appropriate. I just want "scrubs" to have a place and enough content to play, because I'm starting to think I'm probably in this maligned group.

[sonickat]

Thinking and reading on this more, my biggest fear is that the game will become too difficult to be fun.

 

I think that the developers want a certain difficulty in Flashpoints and Ops. Players want to down these objectives faster than the developers see as optimal. When tools become available for players to more easily defeat the objectives, the difficulty has to be ramped up, and then the tools become "necessary" to defeat the encounter. It then becomes a circle of self-perpetuating devices: tools vs. design.

 

I'll admit that this already exists. I just don't want the whole thing escalated so that even normal mode Heroic+2 or Flash Points become unbeatable without meters. I'm ok with Nightmare or even Hard Mode needing whatever tools the "hardcore" community deems appropriate. I just want "scrubs" to have a place and enough content to play, because I'm starting to think I'm probably in this maligned group.

 

I think the one huge thing that your missing is that accessibility to easier modes for the more general masses only comes after the hard core players have conquered it and shared their tips with the masses.

 

Casual players aren't the ones in there testing content, they definatly aren't the ones in there the first few weeks trying to figure out the content, and they damn well aren't the ones sharing their new strategies with everyone.

 

They are the players who are going straight to youtube or whatever website to find out what others have done. Logs are only going to make that information more accurate and provide better strategies that everyone gets to use.

 

The problem is we have this culture the has evolved in the last four to five years of players who want to play games their way in an almost sand box fashion and still want to be able to complete the same content as those who spend time learning how to play their class to its fullest potential.

 

These are the same people who were given participation trophies in school and told they were special...

[KiranK]

The relationship is that they are both inanimate objects incapable of being at fault.

 

I simply applied the same logic used for logs/meters to hand granades. The obvious point being that simply because something is not at fault doesn't make it a good idea. My exaggerated example makes that obvious.

 

There's still no relationship between the two. That's like comparing stereos to nuclear warheads. Both have buttons and switches. Terrible logic.

 

I also wouldn't say the discussion is moot. The compromise BW came up with may just make meters inconconvient enough that few will use them. However, I'm expecting to wipe more as members of my guild get tunnel vision trying to top the meters.

 

They're really not that inconvenient. It took me all of 15 lines of python code to write the program and it's less than 10 megabytes in total size. The fact that I didn't think of this right away baffles me, considering how simple of a fix it was. And yes, at live I will be posting "Looking for 1 DPS, must have raid meter". I'll link them the program if they don't have it.

[KiranK]

Have fun with the banhammer if you ever get caught trying to peak at other peoples' combat logs who never gave you permission to see them.

 

Given that they neither banned people for exploiting Ilum by camping the Republic base, nor even reset their valor, that they never banned people in void star for jumping the fence and planting the bomb before the round started and that they've never banned anyone for speed hacking in hutt ball, I highly doubt I'll get banned for... anything at all. Nice try though.

Edited April 3, 2012 by KiranK

[Tahana]

There's still no relationship between the two. That's like comparing stereos to nuclear warheads. Both have buttons and switches. Terrible logic.

 

 

 

They're really not that inconvenient. It took me all of 15 lines of python code to write the program and it's less than 10 megabytes in total size. The fact that I didn't think of this right away baffles me, considering how simple of a fix it was. And yes, at live I will be posting "Looking for 1 DPS, must have raid meter". I'll link them the program if they don't have it.

 

Given that it was so terribly easy to implement, why are we still talking about it then? A full combat log has become a non-issue. If you publish the tool it will be available to the masses no more work is necessary. You've just made BW life easier and should give you a years subscription for it.

[Ginnai]

It took me all of 15 lines of python code to write the program and it's less than 10 megabytes in total size.

 

You wrote 15 lines of code that are taking up 10 MB of space...?

[krinaman]

There's still no relationship between the two. That's like comparing stereos to nuclear warheads. Both have buttons and switches. Terrible logic.

 

 

You do realize that when you make analogies that it doesn't mean every last thing is the same, right? For example saying Jim is fast like a cheetah just means Jim can run fast not that he has four legs and a tail.

[dmtvaroha]

I think the one huge thing that your missing is that accessibility to easier modes for the more general masses only comes after the hard core players have conquered it and shared their tips with the masses.

 

Casual players aren't the ones in there testing content, they definatly aren't the ones in there the first few weeks trying to figure out the content, and they damn well aren't the ones sharing their new strategies with everyone.

 

They are the players who are going straight to youtube or whatever website to find out what others have done. Logs are only going to make that information more accurate and provide better strategies that everyone gets to use.

 

The problem is we have this culture the has evolved in the last four to five years of players who want to play games their way in an almost sand box fashion and still want to be able to complete the same content as those who spend time learning how to play their class to its fullest potential.

 

These are the same people who were given participation trophies in school and told they were special...

 

This is practically the exact opposite of what I think of in casual players. I am a casual player, therefore far more qualified to say how I play than you are. I do not go to youtube for advice on how to play my game. I do not need you to tell me how to complete an objective.

 

I do not want these tools to make the game so hard that it's necessary to search for advice on how to play. When I was advised to do so in WoW is when the game suddenly seemed like work, and I never ran Kara. Never ran any dungeons after that. I already have a job. I play to have fun. Research is not fun for me.

 

I do not expect to complete the same content as "hardcore" players. I do not expect to ever complete a Hard Mode Op, much less a Nightmare Mode. Use your tools, become elite, whatever -- I don't care what you do, just leave me out of it, and please don't wreck the game for everyone else.

[JonathanDark]

So, its certainly possible to get raid stats with the current logging system. I have working real time raid meters. Here's a sample screenshot:

 

http://memoriesofxendor.com/image/SWTOR_raid_meter_01.jpg

 

I'm still working out some bugs (if you notice there's one person missing in that screenshot), but for the most part its working the way I want. I'm currently tracking damage dealt/received and healing done/received. I plan on adding threat meters although that's a bit trickier. If there's interest in this I can make my solution public, but for now I'd like to keep tweaking it while 1.2 content is on the test server. Let me know if anyone has any thoughts or questions.

 

Ginnai, I think based on the comments in this thread that there may be sufficient interest in your program, but the problem is that it's getting lost in the debate over whether or not raid-wide combat logs is a good thing. I'd like to recommend that you start a new thread, perhaps in the PTS forum, asking if anyone is interested in trying out your program on the PTS. A separate thread will hopefully keep out the debate and get focus on bugs and suggestions for your program.

 

I know that you said it's still being tweaked, but one of the best ways of getting it thoroughly tested is to enlist other people's help. It will also give you an idea of whether or not it's really something that people will want, based roughly on how many people are interested in testing it. Plus, being on the PTS, people will likely be less sensitive about any data that's being shared, so you can fix up any security problems that are found like leaked data and faked data.