A Request for Raid-Wide Combat Logs

[Shingara]

So don't raid with PUGs. Just because they work with different principles is no reason to not allow them to use/get logs. Hell, giving them access to this feature would make the runs better for everyone, since people would be judged based on what/how they actually do, not how their gear looks like (which is all you can base your non-objective observations atm).

 

Same with any raid really, be it pug/guild/friends. Logging makes it possible to see how you do compared to others, if there are people lagging for whatever reason and so on. It's also kinda hilarious how many people demand various loot-rules feeling they are entitled to particular gear, yet when it comes to actually earning it by contributing to the group... allowing others to see/verify that becomes the mother of all evul

 

It doesn't serve anyone's interest to hide how people are doing in their group. Giving non-objective way to verify that instead of checking gear or basing things on "how it looks like" is way better.

 

Who said anything about not raiding with pugs, but the fact of the matter is the basic principles of a pug is to gather random people and to go for a quick run at an operation more then likly for one specific boss and gear drop. who unless your the raid leader will take little to no attention to you. they will do there jobs and then quite happily never talk to you again if they wish.

 

To which point in the prime point anyone pugging the top end of operations would be pugging with people they know, they have played with before and know they know what there doing.

 

would your next response be that dbm must be put in as a feature as pugs would need to know what basic tactics todo also ?

Edited April 2, 2012 by Shingara

[krinaman]

Way to selectively quote and ignore much of the rest of what I posted.

 

Logs help people improve. I said its easy to tell who isn't pulling their weight, but its not easy to tell them how to improve. Or even if they are pulling their weight how they can improve further and maximize their game play.

 

Of course it's easy to tell them how to improve.

 

I can tell players in WoW how to improve that I don't even know let alone see thier logs. How? Simple, go to elitestjerks and use that build/rotation. Done.

 

Why don't I need to see their rotation? Because it doesn't matter what thier rotation is. The "best" rotation is always the same.

[Vankris]

i fear for the game long term success if some essential tools such as (but not limited to) global combat log aren't implemented.

 

Time will tell...

[krinaman]

The main reason why any MMO raid or group needs everyones' combat logs is to break down the mechanics of the fight. In the current state the mechanics of all the raid content and instances is trivial at best. I assume, and hope, as the game progresses, the content will become more challenging. At that point it will be beneficial to understand how the damage is incoming to the raid over time and develop strategies to mitigate it. Further, combat logs can be used to help others and the raids performance. Instant access to the logs will cut down on wipes.

 

The argument for not doing so to "protect" the under skilled players from being judged does not hold water. They are implementing Ranked WZ. Yes you do not need to participate in ranked matches if you do not want to be judged, but you can also not run Ops if you do not want to be judged.

 

You can easily see fight mechanics with an individual combat log and typically it's easier to manage.

 

Logs don't help people perform they show who isn't performing so you can bench them and tell them to use the "best" rotation/build from some elitest jerk type site. Not that you don't have that right in your raid. Let's just stop pretending that's not the reason you all want group logs so bad.

 

Finally, my argument against logs and by extension group meters is that I don't want the the game turned into the meter chasing game that WoW is. No, that doesn't mean I think it should be okay for someone to stand around and do nothing if they want. But we can do without the all the crap that is done to score higher on the meter that is determental to actually finishing the raid.

[ragamer]

The problem is ppl that confuses Raid performance with ranked average DPS...

 

...If your leader is one of those, you are better off... You learn nothing from a Rank on an average DPS table...

 

...Specially when different builds are mixed with different fight environments.

 

The other issue with easy to access e-peen meters is that ppl do not bother to really learn what they are meassuring on those averages and they lack the experience to know the following...

 

...The farther from the typical tank'n spank fight you are (Who needs more of those?) the farther Raid Performance is from a Ranked average DPS (I have seen absurd cases on MMOs as ppl using a certain fight as the base "gauge" for meassuring their E-peens... To later discover those fights have random DPS degrading effects applied around... Like stuns or knockbacks to single targets... Go figure).

 

...Not going to mention the multiple tasks that need to be performed accurately on interesting challenges, that are invisible to any DPS meassure...

 

...At the end of the day you can't substitute paying attention to what ppl does as Raid Leader... If you need an obscurely calculated magnitude to kick some1 from a Raid, you simply lack the knowledge about a game to be a Raid Leader.

Edited April 2, 2012 by ragamer

[Freor]

Who said anything about not raiding with pugs, but the fact of the matter is the basic principles of a pug is to gather random people and to go for a quick run at an operation more then likly for one specific boss and gear drop. who unless your the raid leader will take little to no attention to you. they will do there jobs and then quite happily never talk to you again if they wish.

 

And in what way does this mean they would be better off without combat log? Like you said, "they will do there jobs and then quite happily never talk to you again" - how does being able to check that the randoms you play with are doing their job is bad thing? Or being able to see what went wrong after wipe? etc

 

To which point in the prime point anyone pugging the top end of operations would be pugging with people they know, they have played with before and know they know what there doing.

 

Pugging with friends/people they know? Thats pretty much against the definition to start with. But in any case, would seem easier to make a note of people you'd like to group with again if you could check how they did from log.

 

 

would your next response be that dbm must be put in as a feature as pugs would need to know what basic tactics todo also ?

 

Had to google that. Deadly boss mod? I assume it's some wow-thing, never played that nor care for stuff like that. I want the full log

- To see (and encourage) people are doing their part and not being half afk etc

- To see how I'm doing compared to others (no need to post top logs to chat, I just want to see)

- To have a way to see what went wrong after wipe, is someone doing way less dmg/healing than expected and so on

[Ginnai]

Do you use Ventrilo, Teamspeak, Mumble, Skype, etc...?

 

They are not the same.

 

The above programs have a decent reputation, as do their developers. The poster in this topic that made a client is not even known beyond his or her forum handle. Therefor there is a much higher risk involved when using the executable.

 

At this point everyone has to make out for themselves if they can afford the risk. (Both in terms of malware and security leaks) They are not the same.

 

I agree entirely, if you don't know me then you shouldn't trust whatever random code I decided to write. So, I imagine that raid meters will not be widely used. I'm sure there will be other guilds that will require a similar solution or uploaded logs after raids. For the time being though, there is no way to create any sort of real time raid meters without a client application running on each user's machine like my tool does.

[Hxxr]

...If your leader is one of those, you are better off... You learn nothing from a Rank on an average DPS table...

 

...Specially when different builds are mixed with different fight environments.

 

...Not going to mention the multiple tasks that need to be performed accurately on interesting challenges, that are invisible to any DPS meassure...

 

Don't you think people asking for raid wide charts know how to factor in movement, fight mechanics, player deaths, other tasks than DPS (e.g. healing, klicking consoles) or current spec? Without comparision to other players it's hard to tell what spec is best for which encounter (considering they're equally strong in a basic fight).

For example from what I can tell Arsenal specs are a bit better with single target damage, but having multiple targets on some fights gives you the opportunity of multi DoTing with Pyro. Of course you can test this week and wait for the next one to test the next spec, but only comparing your data gives you limited insight as to how effective this could be - DOTs are expensive despite their effectiveness and you have to be in range of both targets. Something I wouldn't want to have to guess if it's worth it.

 

- To see how I'm doing compared to others (no need to post top logs to chat, I just want to see)

- To have a way to see what went wrong after wipe, is someone doing way less dmg/healing than expected and so on

 

Deadly Boss Mod are timers and announcements for different encounters. For some part it makes people lazy, but at some point it helps increasing the ceiling for complexity of boss fights and of course it's a quality of life issue. Wouldn't I love to have a timer for e.g. mouse droid spawning at Karagga? 1 minute for 8 man is alright, because DfA and OS have a 1 min CD - but 50 seconds is a pain in the ***.

 

And yeah ... how do you know whether and how to improve without the possibility to compare?

Edited April 2, 2012 by Hxxr

[Blotter]

Yes, and we'll gladly use them. But I don't look forward to making sure all 16 people get them promptly uploaded after each raid. We can do it, but simply giving us all the information would be easier and I'm willing to bet more effective.

 

Translation: "Yes, I know they're giving me al the information I'm asking for and that it will completely satisfy the needs I've expressed, but it's less convenient than what I'm demanding and my convenience is far more important than the legitimate concerns of the rest of the community...concerns which are proven accurate by loads of empirical and anecdotal evidence regarding the manner in which people have abused combat logs and dps meters in other games."

 

Sorry, but BW already made this calculation.. You're getting what you want, just in a manner that protects everyone else from what they don't want. If the guild is really "hardcore" and "serious" about raiding, then it's hardly going to be a problem of herding cats to get them to upload their data sets, so the extra step is a minor inconvenience at most.

[Myria_K]

Sorry, but BW already made this calculation..

 

If you think anything is set in stone in an evolving MMO you're being extremely foolish.

 

Bioware is on a crusade to protect those of questionable gaming ability today, doesn't mean they will be tomorrow.

 

Although, to be honest, the lack of even the most basic of tools in this game and the extreme ease of gameplay does seem to go hand-in-hand. I fear those hoping for content difficult enough to warrant said tools, let alone be worthy of being called 'progression', may want to refrain from holding their breath. Faceroll content serves the desires of the same sorts who are terrified of global combat logs, content of any real difficulty would leave them out in the cold.

[Baconmonster]

Not having combat logs that are easy to read and translate hurts. It hurts my guild because we can't tell who may need some coaching, it hurts our raids because we can't tell where things are going wrong, etc.

 

What's the one downside to combat meters? Some people get butt hurt because idiots yell at them. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude or petty but grow up people. Some moron yells at you and hurts your feelings, so lets take the bad thing away. It is a necessary evil, grow up and use the ignore list.

 

We want to hold all people accountable for their abilities, tanks have aggro, healers keep people alive, dps have zero accountability at this time outside of enrage meters which give no real information. This is unfair and unacceptable to other role slots (I'm a DPS for the record).

 

If you're worried that you don't measure up and some moron might kick you from a raid or might yell at you in chat have you ever considered that the moron might have at least sound reasoning just poor delivery? If your dps is subpar why shouldn't you be expected to better your game so other players don't have to make up for your lack of dps? I don't like carrying people in raids, it's annoying and completely unfair to everyone in the raid who does do their job. To be clear, I have nothing against people who do subpar dps. I have problems with subpar dps, and other roles for that matter, that don't try to get better.

 

All ranting aside combat meters provide me with essential information as an officer in guild raids. If we're 5% short on a bonethrasher fight, or we're 10% away from fabricator droid (both instances occurred in guild in nightmare) I want to know where we have a problem. I don't care if it's me that is the problem. I simply want to know. I'm not going to single out someone and yell at them in front of everyone. I'll pull them into a different channel in mumble and talk out their issue with them.

 

Raiding is more than just gear progression, it's about player skill progression as well. Gear only compensates for so much, and player skill will always be king. If you're afraid you'll be yelled at for your play then join a guild with like minded people and don't pug. If you must pug try to find a level headed individual and raid lead with them.

[suduire]

Too many people fear being judged and blamed for a problem that wipes a raid. Who cares? If I was causing a problem to the raid, I would rather know it to fix it. But i guess a lot of people that do not want to know your faults expect others to carry you through the content when you are failing a mechanic. Its better to understand your faults then be naive. If you do not want to be judged by some epeen dps parser you can ignore them, or figure out what you are doing wrong. The reasons not wanting to be judged in an OPs is selfish, childish, and disrespectful to your raiding force. Be a team player and grow a pair.

[oredith]

they already have it so that you can't have LIVE dps/dmg log in game, why make it even more complicated for raid leaders like me to get necessary information?

 

i'm in a casual guild, we do HM ops, with no real interest in spending hours tackling NiM stuff, but I still need to see numbers to be able to make adjustments to my raid.

 

with 1.2, i'm going to have to force everyone to upload their files, and I already know some will be reluctant to do so.

 

why does BW insist on half-assing everything? just give us a real combat log. unfortunately, this is all just babbling, because in the end, BW will stick to their crappy system, just like they did with the server forum clusters.

[DawnAskham]

they already have it so that you can't have LIVE dps/dmg log in game, why make it even more complicated for raid leaders like me to get necessary information?

 

i'm in a casual guild, we do HM ops, with no real interest in spending hours tackling NiM stuff, but I still need to see numbers to be able to make adjustments to my raid.

 

with 1.2, i'm going to have to force everyone to upload their files, and I already know some will be reluctant to do so.

 

why does BW insist on half-assing everything? just give us a real combat log. unfortunately, this is all just babbling, because in the end, BW will stick to their crappy system, just like they did with the server forum clusters.

 

Because Bioware is focused on delivering 'feel good' gaming, such that anyone who wants can call themselves a 'hard mode' raider by simply showing up while not having to worry about things like specs, rotations, or working together as a team to maximize and improve performance.

 

Everyone is a winner in SWTOR. And none have to worry about ever being asked to improve their performance.

Edited April 2, 2012 by DawnAskham

[Shingara]

And in what way does this mean they would be better off without combat log? Like you said, "they will do there jobs and then quite happily never talk to you again" - how does being able to check that the randoms you play with are doing their job is bad thing? Or being able to see what went wrong after wipe? etc

 

It matters not that every person in the pug is doing everything to a milipoint of the max as everyone in a pug is doing there best, if someone is doing nothing you can tell in swtor because there is no auto attack, if a tank isnt doing there job they lose threat, if a caster/ shooter/melle arnt dpsing then you wont be doing any animations of which you can tell when people are doing specific moves via the animations shown.

 

The fact that people are in a pug is down to 2 reasons, one they do not have a guild to raid with two they are in a guild that is beyond it and they are farming the operation in a pug so as not to lock themselves out of the operation in there guild.

 

Pugging with friends/people they know? Thats pretty much against the definition to start with. But in any case, would seem easier to make a note of people you'd like to group with again if you could check how they did from log.

 

If your able to pug with no one you know every time then there is something majorly wrong with you being able to make friends, and dont sit there are try to tell me you cant see who is good and are bad because we have been doing it for nearly 4 months already without a combat log at all.

 

Had to google that. Deadly boss mod? I assume it's some wow-thing, never played that nor care for stuff like that. I want the full log

- To see (and encourage) people are doing their part and not being half afk etc

- To see how I'm doing compared to others (no need to post top logs to chat, I just want to see)

- To have a way to see what went wrong after wipe, is someone doing way less dmg/healing than expected and so on

 

Yes its a wow thing, you can tell when people are afk as i have stated as there is no auto attack, there are no macros to do rotations. in 1.2 you will be able to see how your doing and if needs be ask others how they are doing. And if you cant tell why you wiped then you need more then a combat log cos plenty of us have been able to see why whilst there were no combat logs.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Shingara

[Ginnai]

they already have it so that you can't have LIVE dps/dmg log in game, why make it even more complicated for raid leaders like me to get necessary information?

 

FYI: Live meters are possible, I have them working already:

 

http://memoriesofxendor.com/image/SWTOR_raid_meter_01.jpg

 

Granted, it's not as simple of a solution as it could be if you could see all of your raid's logs on your machine locally, but it is possible to get what you want with the current logging system. I wouldn't expect PUGs to use a system like the one I've created, but it would work well with an organized guild (casual or otherwise).

[oredith]

FYI: Live meters are possible, I have them working already:

 

http://memoriesofxendor.com/image/SWTOR_raid_meter_01.jpg

 

Granted, it's not as simple of a solution as it could be if you could see all of your raid's logs on your machine locally, but it is possible to get what you want with the current logging system. I wouldn't expect PUGs to use a system like the one I've created, but it would work well with an organized guild (casual or otherwise).

very interesting. i assume this is something that everyone in the raid would have to run in the background?

 

probably won't be using it regardless for my guild though. like i said, we're casual. I actually don't even want to post up results, it's mostly for me to analyze the raid. I loved having WoL and be able to break down the fight into minute details, and be able to make very specific suggestions to my group for the next fight.

 

that type of analysis can't be done on the spot anyways.

[Iandayen]

It matters not that every person in the pug is doing everything to a milipoint of the max as everyone in a pug is doing there best, if someone is doing nothing you can tell in swtor because there is no auto attack, if a tank isnt doing there job they lose threat, if a caster/ shooter/melle arnt dpsing then you wont be doing any animations of which you can tell when people are doing specific moves via the animations shown.

 

The fact that people are in a pug is down to 2 reasons, one they do not have a guild to raid with two they are in a guild that is beyond it and they are farming the operation in a pug so as not to lock themselves out of the operation in there guild.

 

 

 

If your able to pug with no one you know every time then there is something majorly wrong with you being able to make friends, and dont sit there are try to tell me you cant see who is good and are bad because we have been doing it for nearly 4 months already without a combat log at all.

 

 

 

Yes its a wow thing, you can tell when people are afk as i have stated as there is no auto attack, there are no macros to do rotations. in 1.2 you will be able to see how your doing and if needs be ask others how they are doing. And if you cant tell why you wiped then you need more then a combat log cos plenty of us have been able to see why whilst there were no combat logs.

 

 

So if you get to an enrage timer - and it's happening consistently, you know exactly which DPS class isn't pulling their weight?

 

You automatically know that when a healer runs out of resources in a fight that it was their fault for not managing heat appropriately or you know which few people took some unnecessary damage and made that healer overexert himself?

 

Your reasoning is flawed.

 

People who push content rely heavily upon numbers from a combat log - even without a combat log previously we were running DPS checks on other things (how long it took to kill a high hp mob etc...)

 

The log in it's current state is a great step in the right direction. We are using it constantly to figure out where we need to step up dps, what was damaging the tank so much - and why was it doing so much more than before.

 

We use it to see what abilities killed us, how much it hit for, and how long we went without a heal to make sure it's either a healing issue or a mechanic issue.

 

Fact is - if you aren't pushing content and don't care about progression or doing nightmare modes or anything of that matter - then don't use the logs. It's YOUR choice to use it or not.

 

And if you run into the random D-bag who flaunts a meter or whatever - then ignore him, again it's YOUR choice that you either listen to him or not.

[Blotter]

If you think anything is set in stone in an evolving MMO you're being extremely foolish.

 

Bioware is on a crusade to protect those of questionable gaming ability today, doesn't mean they will be tomorrow.

 

Although, to be honest, the lack of even the most basic of tools in this game and the extreme ease of gameplay does seem to go hand-in-hand. I fear those hoping for content difficult enough to warrant said tools, let alone be worthy of being called 'progression', may want to refrain from holding their breath. Faceroll content serves the desires of the same sorts who are terrified of global combat logs, content of any real difficulty would leave them out in the cold.

 

Crusade to protect people of questinable gaming ability? HAHAHAHA. I absolutely love how the threads about combat logs/dps meters are so full of people who are just so full of themselves that they literally turn themselves into a parody of what everyone is warning happens with combat logs/dps meters. "Blah blah blah I'm leet deeps hardcore supergamer and you just don't want logs proving you is a baddy failbot." Lolleryawns. Thank you for making peoples' case for them that the whole logs/meters thing just feeds 280lb basement trolls with low self-esteem treating other players like crap because of some delusional fantasy that video game performance is an acceptable metric for human worth....all as a means of using this false sense of self-declared superiority to fill in the void created by their lack of achievement in real life. Golfclaps all around.

 

Content of extreme difficulty has never left me in the cold, sweetcheeks. NEVER. Looking at the logs after the raid once everyone uploads will be plenty of information for me and my teams to learn what may have gone wrong. PLENTY. And that's only if we failed. If it's not enough for you, then the reality is, you need a crutch, are begging for a crutch and then want that crutch to become part of the game design such that EVERYONE needs that crutch...so you can feel better about needing said crutch and claim that using said crutch is what makes you "hardcore" and "elite." L2P. PLay the game when you're playing the game. If a person can't study a log after the raid and learn to do it better next time, then they are a pretty pretty Fail Princess.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Blotter

[Ginnai]

very interesting. i assume this is something that everyone in the raid would have to run in the background?

 

That is correct, there is a client running on everyone's machine. No installation, but it does require running an executable.

 

probably won't be using it regardless for my guild though. like i said, we're casual. I actually don't even want to post up results, it's mostly for me to analyze the raid. I loved having WoL and be able to break down the fight into minute details, and be able to make very specific suggestions to my group for the next fight.

 

that type of analysis can't be done on the spot anyways.

 

Perfectly understandable and I agree that you can't do any in depth analysis in real-time anyway. You would need to do a deeper dive into the logs/data after the raid. The next thing which I am implementing is threat meters which is only useful in realtime, its a bit trickier of a challenge though.

[MaverickXIV]

I agree entirely, if you don't know me then you shouldn't trust whatever random code I decided to write. So, I imagine that raid meters will not be widely used. I'm sure there will be other guilds that will require a similar solution or uploaded logs after raids. For the time being though, there is no way to create any sort of real time raid meters without a client application running on each user's machine like my tool does.

The point is that any non-commercial application is just as likely to be "malicious," regardless of what it supposedly does. Just because yours advertises that it communicates with a server does not make it any more likely to...what is he afraid of, steal information or something?

 

So either he boycotts every single application that does not have a huge corporate logo slapped on it (unlikely), or he is irrationally afraid of what can happen to him "over the internet."

[Saerith]

I like having third party applications to view logs in real time across a raid. If you can get everyone to install and use Vent/TS/Mumble for a raid, it shouldn't be difficult to set up one of these programs with everybody. Just take five minutes before the start of a raid, and everyone can connect to the server.

[Baconmonster]

Crusade to protect people of questinable gaming ability? HAHAHAHA. I absolutely love how the threads about combat logs/dps meters are so full of people who are just so full of themselves that they literally turn themselves into a parody of what everyone is warning happens with combat logs/dps meters. "Blah blah blah I'm leet deeps hardcore supergamer and you just don't want logs proving you is a baddy failbot." Lolleryawns. Thank you for making peoples' case for them that the whole logs/meters thing just feeds 280lb basement trolls with low self-esteem treating other players like crap because of some delusional fantasy that video game performance is an acceptable metric for human worth....all as a means of using this false sense of self-declared superiority to fill in the void created by their lack of achievement in real life. Golfclaps all around.

 

Content of extreme difficulty has never left me in the cold, sweetcheeks. NEVER. Looking at the logs after the raid once everyone uploads will be plenty of information for me and my teams to learn what may have gone wrong. PLENTY. And that's only if we failed. If it's not enough for you, then the reality is, you need a crutch, are begging for a crutch and then want that crutch to become part of the game design such that EVERYONE needs that crutch...so you can feel better about needing said crutch and claim that using said crutch is what makes you "hardcore" and "elite." L2P. PLay the game when you're playing the game. If a person can't study a log after the raid and learn to do it better next time, then they are a pretty pretty Fail Princess.

 

You should attack people personally more, I hear it's a great way to get your point across.

[Ginnai]

The point is that any non-commercial application is just as likely to be "malicious," regardless of what it supposedly does. Just because yours advertises that it communicates with a server does not make it any more likely to...what is he afraid of, steal information or something?

 

So either he boycotts every single application that does not have a huge corporate logo slapped on it (unlikely), or he is irrationally afraid of what can happen to him "over the internet."

 

Yeah, that's a fair point and to most people there is some limit of accepted risk in the software they use especially when it coms to smaller/lesser known applications. My application in particular would be about as "untrustworthy" as it gets though. It's developed by a single person, its not being distributed through any commercial channel, and its not signed or certified in any way. If it were me on the other end, I would be cautious as well.

[Blotter]

You should attack people personally more, I hear it's a great way to get your point across.

 

And the constant refrain in response to particular posters that "if yuo're against this, then you are a terribad player and just want to hide it" isn't people attacking others? Give it a rest. People who try to paint everyone who is against public real-time combat logs/dps meters as people who are bad at the game and want to hide it...those people deserve to get their own brand of insults thrown right back at them. Plenty of people who are extremely good at the game and games in general don't agree with the idea of public logs/meters and feel that the private, uploadable option BW is implementing was a plenty good compromise for everyone. People who want the info can get it. THEY CAN AND WILL. They are not being prevented from the kind of analysis they want. People who don't want other people bothering them with precisely the kind of arrogant, self-serving, chest-thumping delusional bragging and superiority complex insults and criticism...they get to avoid it...and that's killing people who live for treating other people that way to fluff their damaged egos.