Feebs Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Simple fix to make everyone happy. Do the same thing they have done currently only expand on it. Currently, you have to check a box in the options menu to turn on the combat log. Just add a box that shares your data with the other members of your group and a box to collect data from other members of your group. All this crying against it is asinine. Its like refusing to use an automobile because horses work just a well. Ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconutmunkee Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Not NO but HECK NO.. We don't need elitist attitudes in this game and your wanting a raid wide dps meter would give them the tools needed to grief others by exclusion because someone may not be as good as they themselves perceive themselves to be. Cyber-bullies have facebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ealhdun Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Do you use Ventrilo, Teamspeak, Mumble, Skype, etc...? They are not the same. The above programs have a decent reputation, as do their developers. The poster in this topic that made a client is not even known beyond his or her forum handle. Therefor there is a much higher risk involved when using the executable. At this point everyone has to make out for themselves if they can afford the risk. (Both in terms of malware and security leaks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconutmunkee Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) They are not the same. The above programs have a decent reputation, as do their developers. The poster in this topic that made a client is not even known beyond his or her forum handle. Therefor there is a much higher risk involved when using the executable. At this point everyone has to make out for themselves if they can afford the risk. (Both in terms of malware and security leaks) Requiring ventrilo for even the toughest fights, is still an elitest attitude. I can figure out the damn fight, without having someone bark orders in my ear. I can adapt to changes within a fight, without someone telling me to move from the fire. I still use it. Everyone has a different point of view. Each "tool" has its pros and cons. Here's a simple solution: If someone griefs you with your 'stats' from a combat log - put them on ignore. If your guild/raid lead are doing the same - find new people to play with. FREAKING SIMPLE. THE TOOLS ARE ONLY CONSIDERED GRIEFING TOOLS IF YOU ALLOW THEM TO BE. Edit: this isn't directed at you Ealhdun - just continuing the topic. Edited April 2, 2012 by Coconutmunkee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonmb Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) Simple fix to make everyone happy. Do the same thing they have done currently only expand on it. Currently, you have to check a box in the options menu to turn on the combat log. Just add a box that shares your data with the other members of your group and a box to collect data from other members of your group. All this crying against it is asinine. Its like refusing to use an automobile because horses work just a well. Ignorant. This. It's a simple solution that should address concerns from both sides of the front, assuming it is currently technically possible to do raid-wide combat logs. 1) Turn on personal combat logging if you want to measure or check your own performance. 2) Turn on "sharing" AND/OR turn on "accepting". 3) In PUG environments and you feel insecure about your performance, don't share. If you have hardware/client performance issues, don't share AND/OR accept. I understand the issues coming from both ends of the spectrum, so coming up with a solution that can swing at both should be implemented. Edited April 2, 2012 by antonmb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensiblepoast Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 This. It's a simple solution that should address concerns from both sides of the front, assuming it is currently technically possible to do raid-wide combat logs. 1) Turn on personal combat logging if you want to measure or check your own performance. 2) Turn on "sharing" AND/OR turn on "accepting". 3) In PUG environments and you feel insecure about your performance, don't share. If you have hardware/client performance issues, don't share AND/OR accept. In a PUG environment: "LF1M HM, MUST TURN ON SHARING" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoki Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 There is two kinds of elitism. When you win something and someone else loses that same thing, you have become better at that thing, and therefore better than the person you beat. This is how life works, there are winners and losers. Hanging on to platitudes about how everyone is equal is something losers sink into to make themselves feel better. Or even people that often win, because they cant win everything, so the thought comforts them. The other kind believes they are intrinsically better. You're apart of some group, or have something you worked very little for, and you believe this sets you above everyone else. This is the basis for lazy ideals like being born into greatness, racism, or as silly as it is, being in certain gaming crews. Why I mention this here: I see the words 'elitism' thrown around as an insult constantly, like the word 'casual', and I believe they have different meanings based on context. I heard the argument from a friend the other day that a supposed '1%' of the gaming community (which I'm sure he feels he is apart of) was involved with theorycrafting and progression in mmos. He claimed that the 'best' out there were the only ones responsible enough to handle the info. Yes, there are going to be ways to get around the lack of information bioware is giving us in this shoddy new format, but he supposed it was best this way because the majority of players would abuse it if it was more readily available. I feel this is elitism of the worst kind, the second kind. Insinuating the truth will damage everyone's egos while the streets run rampant with depraved elitists spamming meters in your public chat. Hes basically saying, 'you casuals are too bad to properly use information, so you should all stay locked in the dark about whats really going on and leave it to the pros'. Its also interesting, because this essentially agrees, but for different reasons, that the information should stay limited. Most people for fear of elitism of the first kind, the other due to active elitism of the second kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ealhdun Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) In a PUG environment: "LF1M HM, MUST TURN ON SHARING" Why would that be an issue? The person clearly states what he seeks, if you are not interested don't respond. It is the same with social runs. I assure you there will be groups that will not care about combat logs one way or another so everyone can get what they want without having to be in conflict over it. At least if the server has the population for it. In fact if they ever make a dungeon finder and/or guild seeker they should add it as a search option 'logged, unlogged, do not give a hooth about logging' (I still want a delay on raid combat logs however) Edited April 2, 2012 by Ealhdun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 not going to happen. move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensiblepoast Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Why would that be an issue? The person clearly states what he seeks, if you are not interested don't respond. It is the same with social runs. It would be an issue because most of the pugs will go on with that, much like most of the pugs ask for experienced well geared people just for doing an esseles run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 It would be an issue because most of the pugs will go on with that, much like most of the pugs ask for experienced well geared people just for doing an esseles run. Well if most people want to pug with raid wide logs then why are you trying to hinder them? If majority of the community doesn't want raid wide logs then they won't demand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxxr Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 There is two kinds of elitism. Actually what you describe is the difference between 'elite' and 'elitism'. For those underperforming gamers with low self esteem ... try it with L2P. I'm serious. Try learning more about your class, encounters or the game in general. There's enough good enough information floating around to work with. The only reasonable fear is to be exposed as some slacker. When I bought the game I didn't even know what kind of resource my character would be using. Guess what? I figured it out and improved my gameplay by learning. I can't get my head around individuals who think it's best to stay as close to 0 Energy all the time ... the only explenation is that they just don't give a damn and no one forces me to carry them. It's not fun to me - just as much as you don't think it's fun to be judged when being lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casirabit Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 NO thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Already creating a program that will upload your logs to a server and parse them in real time. Since the server parses the logs you won't be able to fake your numbers. Copy and past into my chat window, BAM, spammable DPS log. Don't have the program? You can't raid with us. Boom, done. You can't fix people, Bioware. Stop trying. Make our lives easier and give us full raid logs or we will do it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krinaman Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Already creating a program that will upload your logs to a server and parse them in real time. Since the server parses the logs you won't be able to fake your numbers. Copy and past into my chat window, BAM, spammable DPS log. Don't have the program? You can't raid with us. Boom, done. You can't fix people, Bioware. Stop trying. Make our lives easier and give us full raid logs or we will do it for you. Well, according to this BW doesn't need to do anything as you already got what you need. I suggest they devote time on something more useful instead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaverickXIV Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Already creating a program that will upload your logs to a server and parse them in real time. Since the server parses the logs you won't be able to fake your numbers. Copy and past into my chat window, BAM, spammable DPS log. Don't have the program? You can't raid with us. Boom, done. You can't fix people, Bioware. Stop trying. Make our lives easier and give us full raid logs or we will do it for you.Can we change the save location of our log files? If so, then it would be pretty easy to spoof your client by writing an application which reads from the real log file and prints slightly inflated (yet still realistic) numbers to the file that your client thinks is the real log file. If the output folder cannot be changed, it would still be possible (though more difficult) to intercept SWTOR writing to the file and change it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensiblepoast Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) Well if most people want to pug with raid wide logs then why are you trying to hinder them? If majority of the community doesn't want raid wide logs then they won't demand it. The majority? Don't make that stuff up. It leads to unpleasant gaming experiences and hinders the "unwashed masses", which would be perfectly fine doing this or that instance but that are now virtually locked out and blacklisted because in the first 10 mobs they put out 700k rather than 800k damage. Even more detrimental when we take into account bioware's recent statements regarding new pve content not being as heavy on stat/gear checks, but instead based on coordination and actions. And no, it personally doesn't affect me. I don't really like pve and when I do it it's with my guildies. Use Kirank's program if you want raid logs that bad. Edited April 2, 2012 by sensiblepoast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensiblepoast Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) Already creating a program that will upload your logs to a server and parse them in real time. Since the server parses the logs you won't be able to fake your numbers. Copy and past into my chat window, BAM, spammable DPS log. Don't have the program? You can't raid with us. Boom, done. You can't fix people, Bioware. Stop trying. Make our lives easier and give us full raid logs or we will do it for you. If I start seeing complains about people in general needing this thing for pve I'll be the first to build something to mess with the logs or your program. It's nice to build a tool. It's nasty to bully people into using it. Edited April 2, 2012 by sensiblepoast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) If I start seeing complains about people in general needing this thing for pve I'll be the first to build something to mess with the logs or your program. It's nice to build a tool. It's nasty to bully people into using it. Not bullying anyone into doing anything. If you want to raid with me you gots to spill the logs. If you aren't willing to do that then don't raid with me. No different than recount. As for "messing" the with program, if you build a better mouse trap... Edited April 2, 2012 by KiranK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 The majority? Don't make that stuff up. It leads to unpleasant gaming experiences and hinders the "unwashed masses", which would be perfectly fine doing this or that instance but that are now virtually locked out and blacklisted because in the first 10 mobs they put out 700k rather than 800k damage. Even more detrimental when we take into account bioware's recent statements regarding new pve content not being as heavy on stat/gear checks, but instead based on coordination and actions. And no, it personally doesn't affect me. I don't really like pve and when I do it it's with my guildies. Use Kirank's program if you want raid logs that bad. I'm not. I was stating the hypothetical possibilities. He said that people will start demanding LF DPS must turn on raid logging when looking for pugs if they added the option to turn them on. If he can't find a group that doesn't want to do it without turning them on, then that means majority of the people want to use raid logs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensiblepoast Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 If he can't find a group that doesn't want to do it without turning them on, then that means majority of the people want to use raid logs. It only takes a few people and some good intentions ("it's only to see why we would wipe, if we do.. only for your own good") to get critical mass. And then you can't get rid of it because everyone is using it even if they don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casirabit Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Not bullying anyone into doing anything. If you want to raid with me you gots to spill the logs. If you aren't willing to do that then don't raid with me. No different than recount. As for "messing" the with program, if you build a better mouse trap... Sounds like bullying to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoki Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 If I start seeing complains about people in general needing this thing for pve I'll be the first to build something to mess with the logs or your program. It's nice to build a tool. It's nasty to bully people into using it. You wont. And this isnt being a bully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Sounds like bullying to me. QQ moar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaverickXIV Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 QQ moar?So you just gave up trying to prove that you're not an elitist e-bully, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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