Guard needs a counter

[Anbokr]

I don't care what class gets it, but Guard needs some sort of counter ability. Give the two most underperforming dps specs (I'd say 1.2 operatives and mercs--gives them something unique where some classes have trauma and some have a guard counter leading to a healthy combination of classes for ranked teams) a "guard break" that shatters guard for 5 seconds or something of the sort.

 

Right now, 2 healers + 2 tanks is literally unkillable. Two taunts being spammed massively reduces damage dealt and two guards on top of that allow healers to keep each other up while the tanks mitigate enough damage to stay above 50%. Before you come in and say "bu bu bu just separate the tank from the healer," it's almost impossible to keep a tank away from his healer unless you're a juggernaut (aka a gimped dps or another tank).

 

With guard and taunt, tanks have an enormous impact on a warzone by simply existing. A DPS or even a healer has to actively target switch, bait abilities, and focus on survivability at the same time. Address this imbalance by giving certain tank abilities reactive counters that force tanks to react, bait, and think.

 

I feel like healers in SWTOR are fine but a lot of the whining comes from tanks combined with healers. It's almost hell to solo queue as a healer when you have no active guard or tank helping you out. This leads to a balance nightmare where solo queue healers are in hell and are underpowered and where healers with multiple tanks are overpowered. It's nigh impossible to hit an in between for these two extremes.

 

Healers have to deal with interrupts/trauma and dps have to deal with taunts, guards, and the tremendous amount of CC in this game. Give guard some sort of counter.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[Didy_Kush]

So your complaining about them using team work ok lols.

 

I'm sure u wouldn't be here if they where on your team

Edited March 31, 2012 by Didy_Kush

[MashTactics]

I vote Op/Scounds for this.

 

They need something unique like that.

[Anbokr]

So your complaining about them using team work ok lols.

 

I'm sure u wouldn't be here if they where on your team

 

Yeah ok, teamwork is standing next to each other with a passive ability and a 1 button spam (taunt). A bad tank that only sits on his healer and mashes taunt will have an enormous impact on a warzone that a bad healer or a bad dps will not. Throw in a tank that actually CCs dps, spams taunt, and maintains his lol passive guard, and you just artificially send healers over the top (probably why healers are getting the nerfbat).

 

Give guard counter--this helps underperforming dps, and forces tanks to think and react instead of just easily switching lol passive guard from target to target and leaving it on for minutes at a time (while spamming aoe taunts); while addressing the whining about healers being OP.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[itsmymillertime]

healing in 1.2 is getting nerfed and rebalanced

 

/thread

[Anbokr]

healing in 1.2 is getting nerfed and rebalanced

 

/thread

 

Probably because the combination of guard + spammable taunts is overpowered. Adding a guard counter would prevent the rollercoaster of balance that will hit healers in every major patch--a solo healer is easy pickings while a healer with a tank is crazy. What is BW going to balance around? Adding a guard counter allows for a middle ground that balances healers as healers.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[broganthomas]

I vote Op/Scounds for this.

 

They need something unique like that.

 

lol I'd say throw them anything they can get

[Asphen]

I vote Op/Scounds for this.

 

They need something unique like that.

 

 

 

This dude is the thread winner.

 

 

They 100% had to adjust Op/Scounds before rated, or stunlocking premades would have been the norm.

 

 

But giving them the ability to get some stabs in that bypass guard in return, would be pro. It's a really good idea. I hope it carries.

[Anbokr]

The only real pseudo-"counter" I see going into 1.2 to disperse the "tank healer stacks that like to group up on the doors on Voidstar and circle jerk eachother" (credit to a friend) is going to be rage specced marauders and juggernauts (math being correct, tanks will end up taking 150% of the smash)--and I think that's the last thing that people want to see. Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[Twor]

Yeah ok, teamwork is standing next to each other with a passive ability and a 1 button spam (taunt). A bad tank that only sits on his healer and mashes taunt will have an enormous impact on a warzone that a bad healer or a bad dps will not. Throw in a tank that actually CCs dps, spams taunt, and maintains his lol passive guard, and you just artificially send healers over the top (probably why healers are getting the nerfbat).

 

Give guard counter--this helps underperforming dps, and forces tanks to think and react instead of just easily switching lol passive guard from target to target and leaving it on for minutes at a time (while spamming aoe taunts); while addressing the whining about healers being OP.

 

The counter to guard is called skill. Get some. It really helps. If you're just tunnelvisioning its your problem. Know whom to attack when, uise your interupts, cc switch targets accordingly, use aoe. And don't try to 1on2 a healer/tank team.

Also lern what what skill does, a tank can't keep taunt up permanently e.g...

Edited March 31, 2012 by Twor

[Anbokr]

The counter to guard is called skill. Get some. It really helps. If you're just tunnelvisioning its your problem.

 

Thanks for your enlightening post, really helps advocate an argument. I think the whole basis of this thread is that guard is too ez and skilless in and of itself--adding a counter (like interrupts for healers) that separates skilled tanks from bad tanks is better for the game overall.

 

I bet you're the same guy that went around yelling "counter to launch operatives is skill!!!! ez lrn2play broooo"

Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[Didy_Kush]

CC healers > aim the tanks > proffit?!??@#!~KI$MNER wegkrn'

 

not even going to bother reading if u quote me again ur so dumb lol and ur lack of skill if u cant kill a healer and tank is just amazing.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Didy_Kush

[Marlon]

So you want to nerf my ability to guard members of my team. Whilst most tanks may just guard 1 healer and get healed by him, real tanks use taunt and move guard around depending on where the fight is, it can keep a marauder alive for quite some time. By using a counter you are effectively removing good tanks from the battle completely. I'm sorry you play teams who use the cheapest tatics possible but if you learn to focus on the healer and forget about the tank attacking you, two people will not only damage the healer but also the tank and can win this fight. Using disrupt he wont be able to heal and then when he's dead you now have a tank that has already taken damage and shouldn't be a major problem for the two of you again.

[Twor]

Thanks for your enlightening post, really helps advocate an argument. I think the whole basis of this thread is that guard is too ez and skilless in and of itself--adding a counter (like interrupts for healers) that separates skilled tanks from bad tanks is better for the game.

 

Your thread is basiscally a big whine whine whine. Nothing more.

 

When you have two people actively working together it doesn't matter what class combination they are. They will always be stronger than 2 Pug people who mindlessly smash buttons.

 

Set someone with a low cd interrupt on the healer who knows his job and kill the tank- tanks don't have a really higher mig than other classes because of the way migration works. Neither do they have a high burst potential/dps output.

 

There have been several threads about guard/healers already.

 

Heres one for you. Guard has a really low range. Use knockbacks, grapples, pulls etc and you will see how amazing guard is. And sry, those things mentioned are basics. You want an easy one button way out to work against two people working together. Not gonna happen.

[Anbokr]

So you want to nerf my ability to guard members of my team. Whilst most tanks may just guard 1 healer and get healed by him, real tanks use taunt and move guard around depending on where the fight is, it can keep a marauder alive for quite some time. By using a counter you are effectively removing good tanks from the battle completely. I'm sorry you play teams who use the cheapest tatics possible but if you learn to focus on the healer and forget about the tank attacking you, two people will not only damage the healer but also the tank and can win this fight. Using disrupt he wont be able to heal and then when he's dead you now have a tank that has already taken damage and shouldn't be a major problem for the two of you again.

 

I want your application of guard to be more active. One of the most powerful abilities in the game being a passive, non-resource based, infinite duration buff is game breaking. Adding an "interrupt" aka a counter to guard helps underperforming classes and also avoids the problem of healers being imbalanced or guard being nerfed down from 50% in the future.

 

Heres one for you. Guard has a really low range. Use knockbacks, grapples, pulls etc and you will see how amazing guard is. And sry, those things mentioned are basics. You want an easy one button way out to work against two people working together. Not gonna happen.

 

Here's one for you. Two AC's in this game have no knockbacks, grapples, or pulls. The classes that do have knockbacks (snipers, mercs, and sorcs) are so miniscule that a tank with charge, intercede, or sprint will have no trouble staying with his healer. The one class that can legitimately keep a tank off his healer is probably the juggernaut, and even then, it's much more work keeping a tank off his healer than it is being a tank simply existing, placing a powerful passive and spamming taunts all game. There's a serious imbalance of effort/work here on one side of the equation.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[Marlon]

I want your application of guard to be more active. One of the most powerful abilities in the game being a passive, non-resource based, infinite duration buff is game breaking. Adding an "interrupt" aka a counter to guard helps underperforming class and also avoids the problem of healers being imbalanced or guard being nerfed down from 50% in the future.

 

 

Tell me of any other ability that actually damages the individual using it. What you want if the right to go after who ever you want when you want because you don't play as part of a team.

 

I play a vanguard, I guard someone taunt his opponent and the fire on his opponent, team work.

 

If you do want an interupt on it then I want it to only pass on half the damage I should take over to me, beacuise that's the big problem with guard, it does damage to me. If I'm guarding a healer and they are attacked whilst I'm attacked, I can tell you I'll go down really quickly, since I'm taking 150% of my normal damage.

 

Stop whining and start working as part of a team.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Marlon

[Twor]

I want your application of guard to be more active. One of the most powerful abilities in the game being a passive, non-resource based, infinite duration buff is game breaking. Adding an "interrupt" aka a counter to guard helps underperforming class and also avoids the problem of healers being imbalanced or guard being nerfed down from 50% in the future.

 

You really have no clue how a good tank plays. I switch guard targets based on where I am, how the situation is (healers in the back not focussed- don't need guard but maybe the dd next to me does eh?). Neither is the use of taunts.

The resource you use is your health. The damage the tank gets from guard is nonmigrated, meaning if i guard a cloth wearer I get the damage based on what he gets, if he is standing in aoe that ticks... yay.

That is why I said get skill, sorry but your concept of the tank just pushing one button at the start of the game than the healer is invincible and its an autowin is pathetic.

More active? Is checking the range and distance to your healer (in your example) passive? Geeze. With no class I have played its more important to be completely aware of your surroundings than a tank.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Twor

[Anbokr]

Teamwork isn't an excuse to write something off when it's overpowered (and requires little effort). Let me give you an example. Two live operatives (and even worse, pre 1.1 operatives) could go around a warzone instagibbing anyone they see. Now are you going to write this off as "teamwork", lololol 2 ppl working together l2play and use skill bro cant nerf teamwork. No, teamwork is awesome and effective when balanced, when broken; it becomes frustrating and annoying. Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[Twor]

Team work isn't an excuse to write something off when it's overpowered (and requires little effort). Let me give you an example. Two live operatives (and even worse, pre 1.1 operatives) could go around a warzone instagibbing anyone they see. Now are you going to write this off as "teamwork", lololol 2 ppl working together l2play and use skill bro cant nerf teamwork. No, teamwork is awesome and effective when balanced, when broken; it becomes frustrating and annoying.

 

You completely voided any credibility you ever may have had with that. Play singleplayer games if you want to a super rambo.

[Anbokr]

You completely voided any credibility you ever may have had with that. Play singleplayer games if you want to a super rambo.

 

Teamwork isn't an excuse to write something off when it's overpowered (and requires little effort). Let me give you an example. Two live operatives (and even worse, pre 1.1 operatives) could go around a warzone instagibbing anyone they see. Now are you going to write this off as "teamwork", lololol 2 ppl working together l2play and use skill bro cant nerf teamwork. No, teamwork is awesome and effective when balanced, when broken; it becomes frustrating and annoying.

 

What a troll. Try dissecting arguments before spewing misinformation that was never stated.

[aeterno]

I think tanking in pvp is just fine as is.

 

Speaking froma guardian POV...

 

 

Guard is really effective only if you spec into defence to increase survivability and that shots your dps to heck. If you guard as dps spec you're gimped in 2 areas and I usually only do it in a last resort scenario when I want to literary sacrifice my life to buy the ball carrier 5-10sec more.

Is it usefull/annoying when I do it? Sure. But with the amount of ccs and punts people have available it can and is effectively countered.

The game doesn't need a "I make X class/spec COMPLETLEY useless in a match" button.

 

 

Taunts being op? Yea, with spamming both my taunts the whole match, whenever they're off CD, I usually mitigate around the 15k damage mark.

Thats less than one decently geared players health bar and a 1/20th of a good dpsers output over the course of 10-15 minutes. The only noticable effect that tends to have is on the medal count.

You honestly take issue with that lol?

Edited March 31, 2012 by aeterno

[Marlon]

Once again I will explain.

 

Attack the tank and healer at he same time,.

 

Keep interupting the healer's heals and keep attacking him.

 

The tank is now taking 150% damage whilst the healer is taking 50%

 

The healer can't heal both so has to make a choice and it's usually him first other second.

 

Tank goes down really quickly and now you have an unguarded healer.

 

Or if you don't have any friends then find someone else to attack.

[Twor]

Teamwork isn't an excuse to write something off when it's overpowered (and requires little effort). Let me give you an example. Two live operatives (and even worse, pre 1.1 operatives) could go around a warzone instagibbing anyone they see. Now are you going to write this off as "teamwork", lololol 2 ppl working together l2play and use skill bro cant nerf teamwork. No, teamwork is awesome and effective when balanced, when broken; it becomes frustrating and annoying.

 

The troll is you. When you say that two operative working together is not teamwork. Thanks for completely self owning yourself.

Teamwork means working together. So if two operatives go around together they are not working as a team?

YOur not worth the time I waste here typing. Have fun in your own world.

[Anbokr]

The game doesn't need a "I make X class/spec COMPLETLEY useless in a match" button.

 

I'm not asking for this at all. There are soft-counters and hard counters. Interrupts don't make healers COMPLETELY useless in a match. Taunts don't make DPS COMPLETELY useless in a match (unless I guess you have a very efficient team of 3+ tanks rotating taunt). DoT's/stealth-detection abilities don't make stealthers COMPLETELY useless. Cleanse doesn't make DoT specs COMPLETELY useless.

 

All these, when used correctly, can give one attacker/defender a sizable advantage, but none of them are a "hahaha i win" button. This isn't what I'm proposing. I want a long CD (maybe 2-3 mins) short guard break that allows you to break through a tank/heals team in that crucial moment (just like a well timed silence or stunned). I don't have all day to sit here and brainstorm like the Bioware class designers--they can think of a better "skill" softcounter to guard than I can. I'm just stating the desperate need for one that makes healers look stronger than they are with a passive buff.

 

While taunt is annoying, that's an argument for another thread. I see the need to alter one of the two abilities: guard or taunt.

 

The troll is you. When you say that two operative working together is not teamwork. Thanks for completely self owning yourself.

Teamwork means working together. So if two operatives go around together they are not working as a team?

YOur not worth the time I waste here typing. Have fun in your own world.

 

Never said this. Nice troll. I said two operatives working together on live or even at launch is an example of BROKEN teamwork. I'll reiterate, teamwork is awesome and effective when balanced, but if you take two classes that synergize to produce a broken combo--that's OVERPOWERED teamwork that needs to be looked at. I'm sorry you have trouble reading.

 

Do you need another example? Let's take WoW arena--people love to complain about arena. RMP (rogue/mage/priest) has always been a strong combo in WoW that dominated certain seasons. Because this is "teamwork" does this mean RMP should not be touched at all? Because death knights/paladins destroyed everyone as a team for one season, they should not be nerfed? No, they should be brought back in line. The game isn't balanced around 1v1.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Anbokr

[Marlon]

PvP is all about team work. END OF.

 

You are not supposed to be able to take down one of a tream solo when they are working together, simple. Don't queue solo and then you wont have this problem.