KitRoakr Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 That synopsis isn't correct. What happened was Karen Traviss pushed to kill Mara Jade and the rest of the team on LotF disagreed with her. She insisted on it. It was her idea. She never informed Timothy Zahn about this when he was working on a new Mara Jade novel however. It was clear that the rest of the LotF team did not agree with killing Mara Jade and not only did Karen come up with the idea, she insisted on it. The other authors also didn't want Mandalorians involved in LotF but Karen insisted on it. How do you know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Once again, self-respect, which is apparently an alien concept on these forums. Right. Because airing your dirty laundry -- right, wrong or indifferent -- is the very essence of professionalism and class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Right. Because airing your dirty laundry -- right, wrong or indifferent -- is the very essence of professionalism and class. WHat dirty laundry was being aired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 OK, Mr. Walsh. I have a question for you. Karen Traviss was recruited by Lucas arts specifically for the purpose of developing the Mandalorian culture. Mandalorians killing Jedi was around long before Traviss was commissioned to write for the SW EU. The Mandalorian language did not even originate with Traviss. So... my question is: Why is this all Karen Traviss's fault? You depict yourself as a “professor”. I argue that I professor would know that to make a reasonable argument, you must do two things. One: base your claims on research of credible sources (posters on a forum without credentials do not count) and recognize validity in the opposite side of the argument. Come on… If you want to pretend to be a professor, at least you can try to comment like one. You mean A professor, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 OK, Mr. Walsh. I have a question for you. Karen Traviss was recruited by Lucas arts specifically for the purpose of developing the Mandalorian culture. No. No she wasn't. Karen Traviss was asked to write stories based around the concepts explored in the "Republic Commando" video game series. She was never hired to develop the Mandalorian culture, she simply chose to do that. Mandalorians killing Jedi was around long before Traviss was commissioned to write for the SW EU. The Mandalorian language did not even originate with Traviss. So... my question is: Why is this all Karen Traviss's fault? Well, for starters Mandalorians killing Jedi actually was a very very rare thing before Karen Traviss. They certainly weren't capable of doing it regularly. Canonically before Traviss the Mandalorians always stomped over all opposition until the Jedi showed up and defeated them. In the Mandalorian Wars, for example, of KotOR fame, the Mandalorians lost once Revan and a portion of the Jedi Order became involved. Canonically, as per the original novelization of the Empire Strikes Back, the Mandalorian Empire had been wiped out by the Jedi Order at the request of the Galactic Republic. You depict yourself as a “professor”. I argue that I professor would know that to make a reasonable argument, you must do two things. One: base your claims on research of credible sources (posters on a forum without credentials do not count) and recognize validity in the opposite side of the argument. Come on… If you want to pretend to be a professor, at least you can try to comment like one. Pretend? You are rather full of yourself in that regard. I am a professor, quite literally, I'm a college professor by trade. As in that is what I do for a living kid. I have made a reasonable argument, which has been backed up in numerous sources. Also to recognize the validity in an argument the argument has to be valid and none of the Mandalorian supporters, or Karen Traviss herself, have been able to make one. None of them can reconcile the major lore alterations Karen Traviss made to the lore of the canon of the Mandalorian culture. In fact, her writing turned the Mandalorians, a group of brave and honorable warriors, into a bunch of whining, crying, and immature hypocrites who criticize others for the very things that they do and who will condemn another group for something that they do as a core component of their culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 How do you know this? Well, for one, it has been commented on by the other people involved in LotF in a number of panels. I'm under no responsibility to hunt these up for you but they aren't hard to find. I've attended those panels personally many times as I am a reviewer of Star Wars products. Some of the panels you can look up that contain a lot of this information are the "Fan Days IV" videos which are on YouTube as well as the Fate of the Jedi panel at the SanDiego Comic Con in 2009. Those contain comments regarding the conduct and behavior of Miss Traviss. There are many others however those contain direct comment on much of what I mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) WHat dirty laundry was being aired? Publicly complaining about not being paid, perhaps? Grousing about her former employers' reversing her decisions in canon? One poster sees that as a sign of self respect, which strikes me as laughable no matter what your opinion of the woman's work. A professional would have paid lip service to her former employer and waved off any perceived acrimony with vague excuses about life changes or artistic differences. Then again, a professional wouldn't have lowered herself to the level of her most rabid critics, either. Like it or not, the standard of behavior for one in her position is higher than the standard of behavior for random internet blowhards. (And yes, that includes me.) I think the woman is a victim of her own regimen, to some extent; she claims that she writes best when she's on the razor's edge of exhaustion, which is fine. The problem is that if you're constantly exhausted, your emotions can run wild. The same lack of inhibition that supposedly improves her fiction is a liability elsewhere. As for her dealings with LucasArts? I can't know what happened behind closed doors, but the public picture she's painted of herself doesn't lend her a lot of credibility. At first, I'm sure LucasArts appreciated that she was so prolific, and I'm equally sure that LucasArts may have given her the impression that speed was more important to them than anything else. But eventually, the relationship wore thin, and you can bet your bottom dollar that there are two sides of that story. The difference is that LucasArts knows better than to get into a public pissing match with a former employee -- a relatively obscure one, at that. It's not classy, and it's not good business. (And it's arguably illegal.) Edited April 1, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 That synopsis isn't correct. What happened was Karen Traviss pushed to kill Mara Jade and the rest of the team on LotF disagreed with her. She insisted on it. It was her idea. She never informed Timothy Zahn about this when he was working on a new Mara Jade novel however. It was clear that the rest of the LotF team did not agree with killing Mara Jade and not only did Karen come up with the idea, she insisted on it. The other authors also didn't want Mandalorians involved in LotF but Karen insisted on it. Well, I got part of it correct. I misunderstood a few points on your thread. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 No. No she wasn't. Karen Traviss was asked to write stories based around the concepts explored in the "Republic Commando" video game series. She was never hired to develop the Mandalorian culture, she simply chose to do that. She was tasked to do more than Republic commando , where is you facts pull out a reference we can all see ? If it doesn't come from a "Offical Site owned by Lucas " then it just is personal opinion of someone else like yourself. Both sides of the fence have the OPINION sites btw ! Well, for starters Mandalorians killing Jedi actually was a very very rare thing before Karen Traviss. They certainly weren't capable of doing it regularly. Canonically before Traviss the Mandalorians always stomped over all opposition until the Jedi showed up and defeated them. In which why she was hired and given guidlines to follow to make them "more" than what they were before in EUI ! In the Mandalorian Wars, for example, of KotOR fame, the Mandalorians lost once Revan and a portion of the Jedi Order became involved. Canonically, as per the original novelization of the Empire Strikes Back, the Mandalorian Empire had been wiped out by the Jedi Order at the request of the Galactic Republic. They are not wipped out , more like they have always been ......spread out ! Pretend? You are rather full of yourself in that regard. I am a professor, quite literally, I'm a college professor by trade. As in that is what I do for a living kid. Sure you are. Thats why you mention "kid" as a insult lol. I have made a reasonable argument, which has been backed up in numerous sources. Also to recognize the validity in an argument the argument has to be valid and none of the Mandalorian supporters, or Karen Traviss herself, have been able to make one. None of them can reconcile the major lore alterations Karen Traviss made to the lore of the canon of the Mandalorian culture. You made alot of personal attacks toward someone out of personal opinion with no facts to back it up as you have not posted any links to any Offical site that would be Lucas owned, anything else is here say! In fact, her writing turned the Mandalorians, a group of brave and honorable warriors, into a bunch of whining, crying, and immature hypocrites who criticize others for the very things that they do and who will condemn another group for something that they do as a core component of their culture. Alot of Mando fans would argue otherwise, as you are extremely biased in your opinions toward her. Red ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Would you mind citing this, please? I am curious to know where this information came form. It seems to me that letting the public know that Lucasarts reprimanded Traviss is very unprofessional. Also, if she were repremanded, or more specifically, if Lucasarts did not suport the descision, then one: why did they publish it? and two: why didn't they make her retcon it in the next book? Which would have been easy to do since Mara's death was near the end of the book and verification was not made untill the next book. Assuming that you are correct, then you read this somewhere credible and/or saw/listened to an interview or something of that nature. Would you mind bringing that in as a link or something, please? Thanks. Dude. It's common sense and simple deduction. She was warned several times, then apparently given the option to quit or get fired. Either they actually fired her and she said the ol' cliche` "You can't fire me. I QUIT!" or she really was given the option. Do you really think she was fired or given that option with no warning? Multiple warnings in fact? Either way, she left the ExU writing team under a huge dark cloud. And honestly, good riddance to her. Edited April 1, 2012 by Captain_Zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Well, for one, it has been commented on by the other people involved in LotF in a number of panels. I'm under no responsibility to hunt these up for you but they aren't hard to find. I've attended those panels personally many times as I am a reviewer of Star Wars products. Some of the panels you can look up that contain a lot of this information are the "Fan Days IV" videos which are on YouTube as well as the Fate of the Jedi panel at the SanDiego Comic Con in 2009. Those contain comments regarding the conduct and behavior of Miss Traviss. There are many others however those contain direct comment on much of what I mentioned. You show nothing to prove anything and again its all personal opinions and nothing is backed up by fact. No where has Lucas or anyone from Lucas Arts said she renegaded and rebeled. Her behavior was more than likely due to threats from people like yourself that take None living Characters a little too much seriously . If anyone got a death threat , they would reply harshly at that group . Like yourself who said "I showed up at her Book Signing and called her a hack" , how would you think someone would responed at someone being rude like that? Biased as usual Walsh , and certainly no Professor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Publicly complaining about not being paid, perhaps? Grousing about her former employers' reversing her decisions in canon? One poster sees that as a sign of self respect, which strikes me as laughable no matter what your opinion of the woman's work. A professional would have paid lip service to her former employer and waved off any perceived acrimony with vague excuses about life changes or artistic differences. Then again, a professional wouldn't have lowered herself to the level of her most rabid critics, either. Like it or not, the standard of behavior for one in her position is higher than the standard of behavior for random internet blowhards. (And yes, that includes me.) I think the woman is a victim of her own regimen, to some extent; she claims that she writes best when she's on the razor's edge of exhaustion, which is fine. The problem is that if you're constantly exhausted, your emotions can run wild. The same lack of inhibition that supposedly improves her fiction is a liability elsewhere. As for her dealings with LucasArts? I can't know what happened behind closed doors, but the public picture she's painted of herself doesn't lend her a lot of credibility. At first, I'm sure LucasArts appreciated that she was so prolific, and I'm equally sure that LucasArts may have given her the impression that speed was more important to them than anything else. But eventually, the relationship wore thin, and you can bet your bottom dollar that there are two sides of that story. The difference is that LucasArts knows better than to get into a public pissing match with a former employee -- a relatively obscure one, at that. It's not classy, and it's not good business. (And it's arguably illegal.) If you think Karen is the only Ex-Lucas Employee to do this than you have to go do some reading. Go look at the thread about the Vader actor who to this day hasn't recieved a pay check and then come back ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 You show nothing to prove anything and again its all personal opinions and nothing is backed up by fact. No where has Lucas or anyone from Lucas Arts said she renegaded and rebeled. Her behavior was more than likely due to threats from people like yourself that take None living Characters a little too much seriously . If anyone got a death threat , they would reply harshly at that group . Like yourself who said "I showed up at her Book Signing and called her a hack" , how would you think someone would responed at someone being rude like that? Biased as usual Walsh , and certainly no Professor Or maybe you're just too lazy to go watch the videos and check stuff out from what he said? I just did, and the stuff they said about her was pretty revealing of her character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) If you think Karen is the only Ex-Lucas Employee to do this than you have to go do some reading. Go look at the thread about the Vader actor who to this day hasn't recieved a pay check and then come back ok? Irrelevant. This isn't a thread about David Prowse, and even if it were, no one claimed that David Prowse's complaints (whether they're valid or not) were a sign of self-respect. For that matter, I've never claimed that there aren't other disgruntled former LucasArts employees. I could go on about your mischaracterization of that thread (Prowse never claimed he's never been paid), but hey, I'd be indulging your obvious desire to distract from the point if I did that. Edited April 1, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Dude. It's common sense and simple deduction. She was warned several times, then apparently given the option to quit or get fired. Either they actually fired her and she said the ol' cliche` "You can't fire me. I QUIT!" or she really was given the option. Either way, she left the ExU writing team under a huge dark cloud. And honestly, good riddance to her. There is no such statement from LucasArts or any company involved with her work on StarWars, good luck finding a offical statement because there is none . SHe left for many reasons and some are over reactions but some weren't , I am not her and I am not going to judge. Fact remaining that Mara Jade is still dead shows the arguement behind her killing off a character without premision is false. Mara Jade was the only Character that Lucas would allow at the time and there is in fact no redo story on the way and now how long ago did she die? You really think no one read Karens work before printing it? This whole thought "Companies mass Produce Books without reading them first" is showing how little the Karen Haters know and why this arguement is stupid in General. Karen is currently working on books and moving on and the Status Quo was only changed for a cartoon really and nothing more . Mara Jade is dead and will remain as such like a better character Chewie . Blaming Karen for Lucas and Companies ideas are just so shallow . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Or maybe you're just too lazy to go watch the videos and check stuff out from what he said? I just did, and the stuff they said about her was pretty revealing of her character. Facts > Opinions of fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Irrelevant. This isn't a thread about David Prowse, and even if it were, no one claimed that David Prowse's complaints (whether they're valid or not) were a sign of self-respect. For that matter, I've never claimed that there aren't other disgruntled former LucasArts employees. I could go on about your mischaracterization of that thread (Prowse never claimed he's never been paid), but hey, I'd be indulging your obvious desire to distract from the point of the discussion if I did that. "About Karen Traviss Hate..." is the 3rd thread to do with Karen on these forums My characteriztion of the thread is correct in the posting manor of the bullies of Karen's name . Justifiably There is no distraction other than short minded people getting heated about facts . Invictos this is my first reply to you and really so I could never have said you claimed anything so lol. Edited April 1, 2012 by mefit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Facts > Opinions of fans How about the opinions of her former colleagues? And the facts they discuss? Try again, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) How about the opinions of her former colleagues? And the facts they discuss? Try again, bro. Post those facts from DIRECT links from a Offical Lucas owned Site ........ k Edited April 1, 2012 by mefit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Post those facts from DIRECT links from a Offical Lucas owned Site ........ k Yes, because people are completely incapable of behaving like children without cited and accredited links from the official LucasArts website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) "About Karen Traviss Hate..." is the 3rd thread to do with Karen on these forums My characteriztion of the thread is correct in the posting manor of the bullies of Karen's name . Justifiably There is no distraction other than short minded people getting heated about facts . Invictos this is my first reply to you and really so I could never have said you claimed anything so lol. I was referring to your mischaracterization of the Prowse thread, which referred to Prowse's complaint that he wasn't receiving royalty checks for Return of the Jedi, not that he hasn't "been paid, to this day," in your words. (Your phrasing implies that Prowse has never received one red cent from his work in Star Wars, which would be absurd given that he worked on no fewer than three separate Star Wars movies, spread out over the course of about six years. You'd think that if he'd never been paid at all, he would have politely turned down the offer to make the first sequel.) Likewise, your rebuttal to my post started with the phrase, "If you think Karen is the only Ex-Lucas Employee to do this," clearly implying that somehow the state of all former Lucas employees is the subject of my post, rather than the conduct of Karen Traviss specifically. It doesn't matter whether you were replying to me for the first time; you've managed a rather impressive amount of misrepresentation in record time. I don't know whether English is your first language or not, but you appear to have difficulty keeping up with even your own train of thought from post to post, so I'll leave you to it. Edited April 1, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Yes, because people are completely incapable of behaving like children without cited and accredited links from the official LucasArts website. If you call something a Fact but have no grounds for that Fact than it becomes OPINION . As all I have seen from you Walsh and Captain . OPINIONS It coming from a creditable site owned by Lucas or Lucas arts would make it a FACT what you are saying. Everything else is just someones OPINION and if you do not like her and you and others like Walsh have stated as such , it is just that OPINION . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) I was referring to your mischaracterization of the Prowse thread, which referred to Prowse's complaint that he wasn't receiving royalty checks for Return of the Jedi, not that he hasn't "been paid, to this day," in your words. (Your phrasing implies that he has never received one red cent from his work in Star Wars, which would be absurd given that he worked on no fewer than three separate Star Wars movies, spread out over the course of about six years. You'd think that if he'd never been paid at all, he would have politely turned down the offer to make the first sequel.) Likewise, your rebuttal to my post started with the phrase, "If you think Karen is the only Ex-Lucas Employee to do this," clearly implying that somehow the state of all former Lucas employees has anything to do with my post, rather than the conduct of Karen Traviss specifically. It doesn't matter whether you were replying to me for the first time; you've managed a rather impressive amount of misrepresentation in record time. I don't know whether English is your first language or not, but you appear to have difficulty keeping up with even your own train of thought from post to post, so I'll leave you to it. Could be in all honest the post you called a sentence of words , sorry I cannot read Invictos language all that well :/ Most actors get royalties for acting in good movies that continue to make money , understand? He claimed he is not payed to date , nothing states otherwise . Glad you abused that whole thing. Edited April 1, 2012 by mefit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Yes, because people are completely incapable of behaving like children without cited and accredited links from the official LucasArts website. Well said. Apparently, if it doesn't come from Lucas's official site, it doesn't exist. News Flash, mefit. NOT all decisions in the ExU are made by GEORGE LUCAS! He has underlings and middle managers to handle that stuff for him. In fact, the ONLY characters in the ExU books that he had to give his permission to kill were Crix Madine and Chewbacca. Unless some other movie characters have died there, that fact stands. Now, IF any other movie characters have died since them, George WAS consulted. Otherwise, his control of the ExU isn't that hands-on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Could be in all honest the post you called a sentence of words , sorry I cannot read Invictos language all that well :/ Irony, thy name is mefit. Google translate would choke trying to parse the quote above. Edited April 1, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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