Cempa Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) In WoW I knew a player from the EU guild Inner Sanctum on Silvermoon -on of the top PvE guilds in the world when I played- this player did not use any add ons that related to combat, not one. What I am saying is outstanding players exists, these are the +2400 rating type of PvP players and it seems to be Blizzard balanced the game around them. Now lets look at TOR, it s clear the game is balanced around a larger % of the gaming population. Will that change? Should that change? Edited March 30, 2012 by Cempa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayrir Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 LOL Arena == Most Challenging? Yeah, lets group the most op'd classes and go into a setting where the numbers will alwaqys be equal, and the area will be the same. Play DAOC, where there numbers were never equal, the "jumps" were always different, then talk about skill. Let's jump to make believe land and roleplay PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proppa Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 WoW wasnt make believe and all cartoony? It's true. You try daoc, you go in 8v16 fights and come out on top... Arena's are just setup fights, that kind of behaviour was frowned upon in DAOC. It wasn't just about winning fights, it was about surviving, pre-kiting, extending and actually working hard to stay alive and get good kills. Arena's from what I gather, you would just have 5v5 of the most OP'd classes, in the same Arena constantly. How on earth is that a challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayrir Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 WoW wasnt make believe and all cartoony? It's true. You try daoc, you go in 8v16 fights and come out on top... Arena's are just setup fights, that kind of behaviour was frowned upon in DAOC. It wasn't just about winning fights, it was about surviving, pre-kiting, extending and actually working hard to stay alive and get good kills. Arena's from what I gather, you would just have 5v5 of the most OP'd classes, in the same Arena constantly. How on earth is that a challenge? You're actually bringing up something like a 8v16 fight as an example of DAOC pvp. DAOC was a zerg fest, and any super awesome fights where you came out on top against ''overwhelming odds'', was because some guy on the other team hadn't mastered the use of a mouse or was talking on the phone, not because of a super high skill cap. Get over it. I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proppa Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 You're actually bringing up something like a 8v16 fight as an example of DAOC pvp. DAOC was a zerg fest, and any super awesome fights where you came out on top against ''overwhelming odds'', was because some guy on the other team hadn't mastered the use of a mouse or was talking on the phone, not because of a super high skill cap. Get over it. I did. The great thing about DAOC was knowing how to avoid the zerg, or pick off the players from behind. My point it, the environment, players were forever changing. Then you had 8v8 fights on Agramon where the best of the best would compete etc. How anyone can say, that an Arena is the most challenging thing in MMO PvP is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stovokor Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Top level PvP I would say Guild Wars 1 had one of the steepest curves. There was really slim chance for pug to win in that game. In that arena thing they had, the teams were brutal and coordinated from the very beginning. IIRC many Korean or foreign team names. EvE also had very steep curve for competitive small gang PvP and their televised tournaments. Balance was pretty good in this game and dynamic counters were always being developed. Not a level playing field though with skillpoints. WoW seemed to be more about what was the OP class of the season. They never really overcame this for a long periods. The also seemed to have major issues balancing between PvP and PvE. Use of 3rd party Mods for PvP also differentiated WoW. When I talked to friend last year he mentioned they were rehashing PvP yet again. Seems like a uphill struggle. WoW curve is currently higher then SWTOR because top tier players are spread across more servers in SWTOR. Warhammer - General balance was bad with some classes never receiving attention ( Blackguard and the archer one ) and some combo's insanely strong like the Ironbreaker tank that build too much grudge when it gets hit or guard target gets hit. However at highest level on the flagship server I played on Dark Crag the curve was damn steep. Many good players all around & probably some of the best PvP'ers I have ever seen in one concentrated group ... All or Nothing ( AoN ). Everything from wiping warbands 3x their size to scenarios to dominating 1 on 1 dueling. SWTOR - Accessible for masses and class balance is much better then many of the other games. At this stage it seems their is dilution at high level PvP. Common scenario is 2 or 3 players very strong players in one group and rest average. Alot more "Open" at higher level and many more variables. 1 on 1 is skewed towards certain classes but overall mix is good. We will know how steep once a couple of seasons pass. ** Never played DaOC and Darkfall Edited March 30, 2012 by Stovokor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Arena's from what I gather, you would just have 5v5 of the most OP'd classes, in the same Arena constantly. How on earth is that a challenge? Err arena is pretty darn competitive and real money prizes are giving to the top teams and they are not always the same comps. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ shows a good variance of classes so I don't know how you can say ' you would just have 5v5 of the most OP'd classes' At least give blizzard credit where credit is due in creating an e-sport within the mmo genre. Edited March 30, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digtahk Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Pointless having this discussion until such time as a like vs like system is in place which forces people to adapt and perfect their game. A lot of the complexities of wow are in response to the added customization and information available in and more speedily digestible form. If your opinion of wow pvp was based off of wintergrasp and unrated warzones you would probably think the skill cap appeared quite similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proppa Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 To me, I prefer Open World PvP. Nothing was predictable in my eyes (maybe I'm biased) it was more challenging because you didn't know how many you would face, so you had to be far more co-ordinated etc. Sure they may be competative, but I said Challenging. Doing XvX in a setup environment, where you know the "arena" etc means there is more predictability which takes away the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adzzy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Mainly from my class POV which is Warlock. Warlocks are good in 3v3 with a dedicated healer and CC coordination...Basically DoT and Fear spam. But get a Warlock in a PuG without a healer and its horrible. In TOR on the other hand I solo and group play amazingly well as a Sorcerer or Assassin. --- The number of people capable of getting 2300 let alone anything above 2400 in WoW is definitely limited. Sure in WoW you can actually buy your way to Gladiator these days but thats not what I am talking about. warlocks were a great pug class, at least beyond early vanilla where you had tons of damage from fire and forget dots, did you not have games where you'd load tons of people up with 3 dots each and they'd just die because no healers in pugs wasn't that uncommon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digtahk Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I think open world pvp is a dream we once had......never seen it work as one would hope...... If any of you are old enough to have played MUDS there was some serious open world pvp there and death meant a full loot of all gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warultima Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 To me, I prefer Open World PvP. Nothing was predictable in my eyes (maybe I'm biased) it was more challenging because you didn't know how many you would face, so you had to be far more co-ordinated etc. Sure they may be competative, but I said Challenging. Doing XvX in a setup environment, where you know the "arena" etc means there is more predictability which takes away the skill. World pvp in tor will take a lot of work. E.g Rift and WoW where the world are all in 1 land where Rift is extremely heavily instanced "world". e.g Ember Isle in Rift is 1 big map with 1 single entrance to a dungeon (1 instance). Whereas Belsavis itself consists of 30+ instances and even the Flash Points are multi-instanced. And I believe if population within X instance is over Y, the system will create a mirror of X-1 and put players there where they will have no interaction with players in X even tho they are at the same coordinate on the map. Population is split on Tor so many player says the world "feels dead" well it could also be the fact that the player base is very low in almost all servers cept for a few selected ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proppa Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Well, Ilum could be the main things. Like New Frontiers in DAOC. Doesnt have to be planet by planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhalDrogoe Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 By not having macros, it takes players that much more time to react. I like the macro-less gaming style. Granted it made life easier, being able to tie all your Item/Relic use to 1 key, and different targeting methods with auto-casting spells. But I think it made players lazy. Having to learn how to create macros was a big learning curve. I remember writing my first macro's in SWG and having it get screwed up because I had an extra character or missing a space or something in the code. What ended up happening tho was everyone would macro everything, and in SWG's case it turned into a huge AFK macro grind. By not including them, it not only makes players HAVE to be at their keyboard in order to do anything, but also force them to learn their class instead of copying macro's to play. One thing that I think made SWG into a community, was that it had Choke points that people had to goto. For instance, having the 5-10m wait at spaceport to goto another planet had people sitting at the droid waiting for the stupid ship to land. If you look back at older screenshots you'll see all kinds of whacky SS's of people doing crap at the spaceports. They also forced players to interact with other players. Remember Battle Fatigue? You couldn't go out and grind endlessly by yourself farming, or doing whatever. Eventually you had to go back to the cantina, and /watch entertainers to remove BF and for buffs. Forcing them to interact. I don't know about you guys, but the most fun I had in a MMO was on my musician hanging out in the cantina, forming bands and doing /bandflo's Having the music fill out better when certain instruments were added. Once they introduced Jump To Lightspeed, people then could grind endlessly without interaction, they could instantly travel to other planets on their own without having to wait for the spaceships, and it just became terrible because they took these 'choke-points' out of the game forcing interaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adzzy Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Granted it made life easier, being able to tie all your Item/Relic use to 1 key, and different targeting methods with auto-casting spells. But I think it made players lazy. ermm i have my items/relics/skills bound to 1 macro key (anyone with a gaming keyboard/mouse can), what you can't macro is things like focus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmarttigann Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Well written post, but sounds like you got a bit off topic there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proppa Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 well written post, but sounds like you got a bit off topic there willloooooowwww !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifax Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 i got arena rating 2500 on wow in 2 weeks of barely trying on a holy paladin XD but thats because wow's pvp class balance was awefully unbalanced. Sure. Let's see the screenshot since you know if that was true you would most definitely get a screenshot. Oh wait, this never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affics Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Err arena is pretty darn competitive and real money prizes are giving to the top teams and they are not always the same comps. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/5v5/ shows a good variance of classes so I don't know how you can say ' you would just have 5v5 of the most OP'd classes' At least give blizzard credit where credit is due in creating an e-sport within the mmo genre. No one cares about 5v5 - its pve bracket. No one cares about 2v2 coz there is no glad. 3v3 is the only bracket that makes sense, but only OP setups are on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) No one cares about 5v5 - its pve bracket. No one cares about 2v2 coz there is no glad. 3v3 is the only bracket that makes sense, but only OP setups are on top. This shows quite a variance of setups. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ rpm, www, rpw, hpr, hds, etc at over 2600. And above 2500 most comps are represented I don't understand how you can talk about OP comps when there is this much variance. Please check your facts first. Edited March 30, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digtahk Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I wonder which was the latest class in wow to get a legendary? Dont seem to be many of them in that list....OH wait.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The words "Skill" and "WoW" do not belong in the same sentence. As TOR has modelled their PVP after the WoW model, it too does not belong in the same sentence with "Skill". These games are PvE with a poorly implemented PvE-PvP hybrid tacked on. Any system that allows statistical character progression in the form of abilities, power, gear, etc. is NOT PvP, it is PvE. Very little skill is involved in PvE as it is about the character, not the player (the whole point of an RPG). Not surprisingly, very little skill winds up being involved in what passes for PvP as well since it is essentially just PvE where other people control the mobs you are killing. If you want an MMO that focuses on PvP and skill, play GW. If you want to pit your avatar's statistical advantage against other people's avatars, play WoW or TOR, but please don't try to call it skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhealThar Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I have a 50 Jugg and have tried all those AC and none of them have the complexity of a Warrior for example. Though admittedly Rogues may not be the hardest class to play..or DK's for that matter lol I also agree that new games like TOR would have a large number of players still learning the game. Things like when to CC a Marauder and what abilities to counter and so on. Inq/Sage can run away and reset fights, the stealth AC can also run away and reset fights. In WoW you don't have that really, you either kill or be killed in group play. what... Warriors are the easiest class to play right now in WoW. Rogues have the highest skill cap even though they're over tuned. Rogues/Mages have far more ways to reset fights than anything in TOR. Did you even play wow..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affics Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) This shows quite a variance of setups. http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/ rpm, www, rpw, hpr, hds, etc at over 2600. And above 2500 most comps are represented I don't understand how you can talk about OP comps when there is this much variance. Please check your facts first. I can talk about op comps, when i played arena on competitive lvl. In seasons 3-8 when i play a lot there were OP comp in 2v2 and 3v3. And op comp its not the comp that on top right now - its the comp, that have easy time getting high rating. Edited March 30, 2012 by Affics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groncho Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The words "Skill" and "WoW" do not belong in the same sentence. As TOR has modelled their PVP after the WoW model, it too does not belong in the same sentence with "Skill". this sorry no compatibility between skill and Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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