Help save the parakeet

[mrObtuse]

I have sent in feedback in every way I can imagine- ticket, tweets, mail to the community podcasts, suggestion forum.. The basic message is that there doesn't appear to be a need to take away this playstyle option while assassin tanking style has more potent damage and equal defense. IF there is an issue with over performance, as they have put it, it should be tuned/tweaked. Hybrid options are interesting and care should be taken to avoid simply shutting these options down. We want choices that lead to a wide variety of playstyles and with this incoming revision Bioware would just be removing the style instead of respecting it. This may take more work than simply blocking the spec but I feel that Bioware is committed in all they do to do it just that little bit better.

 

 

I've had a few ideas about how options could be increased in a more controlled fashion--

 

 

A simple way of tuning the spec would be to add a shared internal cooldown on both the heat venting aspect and the cooldown reset on the procs, like they are already attempting to do for DPS / CGC, and like we already have on the shielding venting. The thing that is silly is constant rail shot resets and venting heat every time even when venting from shielding. The play style should remain, simply with capped & diminished resource/burst returns so it prevents venting more than every 4 seconds, and only one attack cooldown can reset every 4 seconds.

 

another idea I had been thinking about how best to approach since becoming experienced with the ion mechanic over leveling vanguard and a powertech. If they are totally set on stopping tank usage of the PPA, then we need something in the shield tree that helps us improve the use of rail shot.

 

The best way I think you could do that is to let shielding an attack have a chance to blast the attacking target with the ion cell effect, and when it does damage (or only when the shielding thorn effect occurs) there is a 25% chance for rail shot to come up. I think that effect would be far more applicable to a shield tree player than the one that adds 25% damage to ion cell and extends by 3 sec. I am not sure if there is a better way to approach or to just give the shield players the ability to have both rail shot and rocket punch resets. That makes playing a tanking character an interesting priority system instead of just mash all the abilities and then wait for your next cooldown.

Edited March 27, 2012 by mrObtuse

[Nydar]

I have sent in feedback in every way I can imagine- ticket, tweets, mail to the community podcasts, suggestion forum.. The basic message is that there doesn't appear to be a need to take away this playstyle option while assassin tanking style has more potent damage and equal defense. IF there is an issue with over performance, as they have put it, it should be tuned/tweaked. Hybrid options are interesting and care should be taken to avoid simply shutting these options down. We want choices that lead to a wide variety of playstyles and with this incoming revision Bioware would just be removing the style instead of respecting it. This may take more work than simply blocking the spec but I feel that Bioware is committed in all they do to do it just that little bit better.

 

 

I've had a few ideas about how options could be increased in a more controlled fashion--

 

 

A simple way of tuning the spec would be to add a shared internal cooldown on both the heat venting aspect and the cooldown reset on the procs, like they are already attempting to do for DPS / CGC, and like we already have on the shielding venting. The thing that is silly is constant rail shot resets and venting heat every time even when venting from shielding. The play style should remain, simply with capped & diminished resource/burst returns so it prevents venting more than every 4 seconds, and only one attack cooldown can reset every 4 seconds.

 

another idea I had been thinking about how best to approach since becoming experienced with the ion mechanic over leveling vanguard and a powertech. If they are totally set on stopping tank usage of the PPA, then we need something in the shield tree that helps us improve the use of rail shot.

 

The best way I think you could do that is to let shielding an attack have a chance to blast the attacking target with the ion cell effect, and when it does damage (or only when the shielding thorn effect occurs) there is a 25% chance for rail shot to come up. I think that effect would be far more applicable to a shield tree player than the one that adds 25% damage to ion cell and extends by 3 sec. I am not sure if there is a better way to approach or to just give the shield players the ability to have both rail shot and rocket punch resets. That makes playing a tanking character an interesting priority system instead of just mash all the abilities and then wait for your next cooldown.

 

 

I think this patch they demonstrated their express intent to kill hybrid specs. They don't want them. I am just hoping the changes they made aren't going to break the class, but since they basically nerfed everyone we'll have to wait and see how it all comes together.

[Nydar]

At this point I am either going full pyro or full shields, the days of the parakeet are over my friend.

[Ishly]

Bioware say that hybrids is bad

so only 31 )

[Agooz]

I think this patch they demonstrated their express intent to kill hybrid specs. They don't want them. I am just hoping the changes they made aren't going to break the class, but since they basically nerfed everyone we'll have to wait and see how it all comes together.

 

Really? so how come they are leaving Assassin tank hybrids alone? Assassin hybrids are actually more insane than parakeet ever was.

[Gomezie]

I fail to see how "Bioware dont like hybrids"

 

Its a simple matter of PPA should only work with CGC.. no? read the description of the talents and keep in mind its context

 

One thing is true though.. "Bioware dont like powertech"

Edited March 27, 2012 by Gomezie

[Nydar]

Really? so how come they are leaving Assassin tank hybrids alone? Assassin hybrids are actually more insane than parakeet ever was.

 

A couple of the devs have sins? It doesn't matter, these companies tend to wield the nerf bat and often swing it with incorrect or incomplete data. Maybe one of them got repeatedly wned by someone with CP spec and decided to have his revenge, who knows. I know that I am not happy, but I am going to wait and see it implemented before I bish any further. I find it odd that PTs got nerfed across the board and freaking marauders got a boost. I've seen marauders kill tanks in 3 shots.

 

But as I said this spec is dead. Someone posted a 0/24/17 spec that could be the new CP in terms of capabilities it seemed intersting.

[FalconDroid]

I switched to Iron Fist because I don't want to lose Jet Charge.

[Barbis]

Really? so how come they are leaving Assassin tank hybrids alone? Assassin hybrids are actually more insane than parakeet ever was.

 

The assassins got nerfed into there current build. Much like the powertech getting nerfed out of parakeet

[verfallen]

Really? so how come they are leaving Assassin tank hybrids alone? Assassin hybrids are actually more insane than parakeet ever was.

 

As it is, 31/0/10 is the best tank build for assassin, since wither is an awesome way to build up the healing on Force Lightning, while dishing out impressive TPS for an AoE. It also reduce incoming damage by 5%, and snare.

 

Nothing hybrid wise top it. So hybrid sin? Not really. Death Field isn't worth it.

[Scoobings]

I feel like I'm missing something. What is killing this build? The railshot changes to Pyrotech?

 

*edit*

Is it that it requires combustable cylinder to activate? Because, don't say it too loud or BW will hear, Parakeet works really well with combustable active instead of Ion. You lose guard but the build is still devestating, and by switching to combustable you do a ton more damage if you shuffle points around.

 

That's how I've been playing Parakeet since day 1 anyway (as a pub stomper, not in an organized team)

Edited March 28, 2012 by Scoobings

[DarthVallik]

I feel like I'm missing something. What is killing this build? The railshot changes to Pyrotech?

 

*edit*

Is it that it requires combustable cylinder to activate? Because, don't say it too loud or BW will hear, Parakeet works really well with combustable active instead of Ion. You lose guard but the build is still devestating, and by switching to combustable you do a ton more damage if you shuffle points around.

 

That's how I've been playing Parakeet since day 1 anyway (as a pub stomper, not in an organized team)

 

isnt the point of parakeet to be able to reset rocket punch via shielding to then reset rail more often?

 

all while having extra armor and being able to protect people?

 

running it in combustable gas is essentially a half level pyro spec with none of the top tier benefits and afew minor buffs from tanking line (9% aim and 16% armor)

 

so less survivability and less dmg

[Agooz]

I feel like I'm missing something. What is killing this build? The railshot changes to Pyrotech?

 

*edit*

Is it that it requires combustable cylinder to activate? Because, don't say it too loud or BW will hear, Parakeet works really well with combustable active instead of Ion. You lose guard but the build is still devestating, and by switching to combustable you do a ton more damage if you shuffle points around.

 

That's how I've been playing Parakeet since day 1 anyway (as a pub stomper, not in an organized team)

 

umm so you're basically playing a broken Pyro?!

I mean, the whole point of Parakeet was using IGC. There is absolutely ZERO reason to spec parakeet and stay in CGC. Unless you think investing 21 points to get jet charge is worth all the dps loss of a full pyro.

The point of the Parakeet is to be a pvp "Tank" build that dishes out decent damage.

[Nydar]

I switched to Iron Fist because I don't want to lose Jet Charge.

 

That's my thinking as well, will ironfist still work after 1.2, didn't read AP notes in patch?

[PurpleMagick]

Really? so how come they are leaving Assassin tank hybrids alone? Assassin hybrids are actually more insane than parakeet ever was.

 

Assassin hybrids aren't really hybrids, they're just tanks in DPS gear.

[Agooz]

Assassin hybrids aren't really hybrids, they're just tanks in DPS gear.

 

Well so are specs like Ironfist. Just trying to use the same terminologies

 

Still tanksins are sick imo.

[CorruptorII]

I honestly don't think the intention was to nerf the "Carolina Parakeet".

 

I suspect PPA requiring CGC to trigger, was intended as a nerf to full pyros.

Full pyro currently, can easily switch to IGC and put guard on somebody, without losing (too) much of its offensive potential. To be fair, it would have been OP for rateds.

 

This nerf breaking the Parakeet, was just an unfortunate side effect I'm affraid.

 

Assassin hybrids aren't really hybrids, they're just tanks in DPS gear.

 

I see this argument floating around these threads a lot and I must say, it's pretty dumb.

Why is it so important wether it's a hybrid or not? Why do people assume Devs have something against hybrid specs, when they have specifically stated they don't? (That is, unless a hybrid is broken, Sorcerers for instance)

 

Fact is, wether you classify them as hybrids or not, both the carolina parakeet in eliminator and iron fist in Combat tech, provide an option for balance between offensive and defensive power. Iron fist being more utility oriented, the Carolina Parakeet having more raw power.

However, while these speccs feel perfectly balanced, Tank assassins/shadows are clearly broken.

They have excelent defensive capabilities, great utility and more dps/burst on demand than the parakeet ever had.

Isn't it natural that all the powertechs, who loved this soon to be broken specc, will look in their general direction and wonder "why"?

Edited March 29, 2012 by CorruptorII

[LoKiei]

Pretty sure it was done on purpose.

[Pwnyride]

As it is, 31/0/10 is the best tank build for assassin, since wither is an awesome way to build up the healing on Force Lightning, while dishing out impressive TPS for an AoE. It also reduce incoming damage by 5%, and snare.

 

Nothing hybrid wise top it. So hybrid sin? Not really. Death Field isn't worth it.

 

The hybrid people speak of isnt a death field hybrid, the hybrid most people speak of is to drop wither, and pick up darkembrace in deception tree and get claws of decay for 50% crit bonus to thrash. It builds stacks about the same because you are using thrash more and getting energize procs, therefore shocking more than in a full wither build. Also the coming outta stealth regen is extremly good burst.

 

I honestly play both, i like the wither snare, but i also like the Single target dmg of the hybrid

Edited March 29, 2012 by Pwnyride

[Thankyjack]

Bioware say that hybrids is bad

so only 31 )

 

Why not just require that 31 points be spent in one tree before the other trees "unlock?" That would be fair for everyone.

[Agooz]

I honestly don't think the intention was to nerf the "Carolina Parakeet".

 

I suspect PPA requiring CGC to trigger, was intended as a nerf to full pyros.

Full pyro currently, can easily switch to IGC and put guard on somebody, without losing (too) much of its offensive potential. To be fair, it would have been OP for rateds.

 

This nerf breaking the Parakeet, was just an unfortunate side effect I'm affraid.

 

 

 

I see this argument floating around these threads a lot and I must say, it's pretty dumb.

Why is it so important wether it's a hybrid or not? Why do people assume Devs have something against hybrid specs, when they have specifically stated they don't? (That is, unless a hybrid is broken, Sorcerers for instance)

 

Fact is, wether you classify them as hybrids or not, both the carolina parakeet in eliminator and iron fist in Combat tech, provide an option for balance between offensive and defensive power. Iron fist being more utility oriented, the Carolina Parakeet having more raw power.

However, while these speccs feel perfectly balanced, Tank assassins/shadows are clearly broken.

They have excelent defensive capabilities, great utility and more dps/burst on demand than the parakeet ever had.

Isn't it natural that all the powertechs, who loved this soon to be broken specc, will look in their general direction and wonder "why"?

 

I am sorry I totally disagree. No deep pyro in their right mind would be using IGC. It completely messes up heat management since CGC ticks allows you to get the venting on RS. Also CGC actually contributes a ton of damage to deep Pyros, at least 10% of its total damage. No one was QQing of Pyros running around in IGC. It is ridiculous.

 

Definitely the change to PPA requiring CGC is 100% geared towards any attempt to create a hybrid Tank/Pyro. Now the 6sec change, is geared towards nerfing Pyro burst. Period.

 

No, and the fact is only the Parakeet was a true hybrid, bring tank+dps. Ironfist does not add an ounce of dps, hence it is strictly a Tank pvp spec. And no, Parakeet is not balanced, and I totally agree that it was OP. But I agree that assassin hybrids need to have a similar nerf.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Agooz

[CorruptorII]

I am sorry I totally disagree. No deep pyro in their right mind would be using IGC. It completely messes up heat management since CGC ticks allows you to get the venting on RS. Also CGC actually contributes a ton of damage to deep Pyros, at least 10% of its total damage. No one was QQing of Pyros running around in IGC. It is ridiculous.

 

Definitely the change to PPA requiring CGC is 100% geared towards any attempt to create a hybrid Tank/Pyro. Now the 6sec change, is geared towards nerfing Pyro burst. Period.

 

No, and the fact is only the Parakeet was a true hybrid, bring tank+dps. Ironfist does not add an ounce of dps, hence it is strictly a Tank pvp spec. And no, Parakeet is not balanced, and I totally agree that it was OP. But I agree that assassin hybrids need to have a similar nerf.

 

Where did you get the idea I suggested pyros would be running IGC?

They currently have the option to switch on the fly when necessary, by sacrifising way too little.

If you can't imagine all the pvp scenarios where it would be helpfull, I can't help you.

In fact, it's potentially so OP that I feel this is a fair nerf.

 

Noone ever complained about Parakeets. I've played CP and being full Pyro currently, I feel far more powerfull as a pyro.

The iron fist specc is a pvp tank specc with DPS gear, hence, not a -true- tank. Easily comparable to Tankassins. However, like I said, while iron fist and CP feel balanced, Tankassins feel far far stronger.

I'm just trying to make sence of the chaos here.

[Agooz]

Where did you get the idea I suggested pyros would be running IGC?

They currently have the option to switch on the fly when necessary, by sacrifising way too little.

If you can't imagine all the pvp scenarios where it would be helpfull, I can't help you.

In fact, it's potentially so OP that I feel this is a fair nerf.

 

Noone ever complained about Parakeets. I've played CP and being full Pyro currently, I feel far more powerfull as a pyro.

The iron fist specc is a pvp tank specc with DPS gear, hence, not a -true- tank. Easily comparable to Tankassins. However, like I said, while iron fist and CP feel balanced, Tankassins feel far far stronger.

I'm just trying to make sence of the chaos here.

 

Ok it is pretty obvious that you do not have much experience with the class, or you wouldnt be saying these things.

Where did you susgested Pyros in IGC?? duh, in the previous post AND this last post I am replying to right now. It's the sentence right after that. lol

 

Running IGC as pyro in whatever scenario, you are destroying your spec. First of all you loose 10% damage alone just from not using CGC. Second you loose a TON more dps, because you can not sustain any sort of rotation since you rail shots are never hitting a burning target so you never vent.

 

You can switch from CGC to IGC on the fly? really? can you please tell me how. Last time I tried it, it was a 1.5sec casting time, that is ALSO subject to pushback when taking damage. And as soon as you try to switch, it right away cancels whatever cylinder you had. So if you accidentally move, gets pulled, pushed, stunned, whatever, you will be running around without any cylinder active lol.

 

Practically everyone I know playing a tank in pvp, not just as a PT, puts on dps gear, simply because defenses have much less use in pvp. Ironfist or not, they are pvp Tanks and in NO way comparable to a Tanksin. In fact CP and Tanksin could be compared because of their survivability plus their great damage output. Ironfist on the other hand, is as true tank as the next pvp tank. All it does is trade 6points usually spent on more defenses/heat blast, to get faster quell, lower cd on grapple, and retractable blade(which contrary to what some think, it doesnt not add dps to the spec).

 

You feel Pyro is more powerful than parakeet? ok...so does anyone else who plays a pyro, myself included. What's your point? No one played Parakeet because it was more "powerful", it is afterall a "tank" spec. What made it OP is the amount of burst it puts out as a "tank" spec. It does not melt faces like a deep pyro, but it still puts out good enough burst to rack up the kills, while maintaining very high mitigation, guard, and having jet charge. THAT's OP.

 

If you look at the hundreds of posts that were written since the patch notes came out, it is unanimous that the PPA requiring CGC is to kill the st/pyro hybrid. With all due respect, you really are the FIRST person to say otherwise.

[CorruptorII]

Ok it is pretty obvious ......

 

Played powertech since launch, rank 73 on a fairly low population EU server, where Ilum has been a wasteland since launch. No killtrading whatsoever, just the occasional 1vs1, 1vs2. All my pvp experience is at level 50. I did zero WZs leveling up.

So yeah, I've played my share of the class, feel free to make assumptions about my skill and/or level or intelligence.

I also happen to have full BM and just enough access to Rakata gear to min/max my toon. I've been really, -really- lucky with Op drops.

 

Most of the times I Q warzones with a RL friend of mine, sorcerer healer. Being on a low population server, theres only 2 other pyros we encounter on our team regularly. One of them in particular, will stay in IGC for half the warzone as soon as he sees us, guarding my friend while in Range.

We end up eating through 6 BM geared oponents like a wrecking ball 3vs6 regularly, it's not even funny. It is a -very- powerfull option to have the extra guard and currently pyros can guard, without losing nearly enough of their burst as they should. You don't even need to use IM, if you know your targets will get doted. So, the heat in certain cases isn't as bad as it would seem.

You can come up with a number of scenarios in organised pvp, where having a burst class switching cylinders accordingly, would be OP.

Enough about this argument though, we can agree to disagree if you want. It is borderline off topic at this point.

 

Carolina Parakeets felt balanced. Noone ever complained about them, playing one didn't feel OP, just extremely fun.

I refuse to believe, that anyone in their right minds would nerf them intentionally and leave Tankassins untouched. This being a nerf to pyros seems more logical to me.

Edited March 31, 2012 by CorruptorII

[Agooz]

Carolina Parakeets felt balanced. Noone ever complained about them, playing one didn't feel OP, just extremely fun.

I refuse to believe, that anyone in their right minds would nerf them intentionally and leave Tankassins untouched. This being a nerf to pyros seems more logical to me.

 

Well the 6sec no PPA proc is certainly a nerf to Pyro's burst that much is certain. I only disagreed that the CGC requirement was also a Pyro nerf. I definitely feel it was more of crippling blow for specs like CP. I mean it wasnt a nerf to CP, it is a change that makes the spec completely not playable.

 

I do agree that by making CP not viable, they also should do the same with Tanksins, and you said no one in their right mind would have intentionally dont that. Well I am pretty certain whoever made these decisions wasnt in their right might. I hate to think that just because some devs have assassin characters, they are getting the free pass.