Stop complaining about 1.2 changes...

[Antipathize]

Every mmo goes through "retooling" and balance. I have yet to see one that does it on so many levels with so many classes. (aside from SWG) yes that's anecdotal, but I previously posted a dev note in another thread that explained how they were doing their balance. Small tweaks and observing the result before further change. (from Eve)

 

The way this one is introduces too many variables and changes the fundamentals of a class.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Antipathize

[oredith]

Every mmo goes through "retooling" and balance. I have yet to see one that does it on so many levels with so many classes. (aside from SWG) yes that's anecdotal, but I previously posted a dev note in another thread that explained how they were doing their balance. Small tweaks and observing the result before further change. (from Eve)

 

The way this one is introduces too many variables and changes the fundamentals of a class.

Bioware's problem is actually a lot more than just "balance".

 

lets be realistic here - WoW went through a TON of nerf/balances, and there were TONS of general ************ that went on on the forums - sometimes valid, sometimes not, but that's honestly beside the point. here's why bioware is failing, whereas WoW was able to weather the QQ-storm.

 

1. wow had class leads - they communicated the whys of the nerf, you may not agree with them, but at least you had their official position in non-ambiguous terms.
   
2. more importantly - metrics have ALWAYS been public in wow. the method of gathering them might have been archaic at the start, but they've always been available, and when the devs said "____ is over performing", they, and more specifically, the PLAYERS were able to validate or refute these claims. Bioware has their secret bar that no one is privy to.
   
3. wow rebalanced at strategic times - around expansions and major (MAJOR) game changes, usually when level cap was changing, or drastic stat re-balance. This is not the case with ToR 1.2. and even then (next, and most important point)
   
4. wow went about balancing with a scalpel, not a 10lb sledge hammer - they identified a problem, and did changes to address those specific issues, while minding the balance to the rest of the classes. they didn't always hit their mark, and OFTEN required re-tuning, but they did so in small steps, rather than completely revamping the class.
   
5. ToR 1.2 is a game changer for BH - it completely changes the way we play the game. Instead of making decisions based upon triage, we are now making decisions based upon resource.

 

the combination of all of that, is a class killer for me.

 

i'm fairly happy tanking as a powertech BH though. kinda sad that my fat BH doesn't get to /doubleguns the women in raid as often as i did, and it's just not quite the same thing when you do it with a buxom chiss chick.

[RuQu]

[*]wow rebalanced at strategic times - around expansions and major (MAJOR) game changes, usually when level cap was changing, or drastic stat re-balance. This is not the case with ToR 1.2. and even then (next, and most important point)

[*]wow went about balancing with a scalpel, not a 10lb sledge hammer - they identified a problem, and did changes to address those specific issues, while minding the balance to the rest of the classes. they didn't always hit their mark, and OFTEN required re-tuning, but they did so in small steps, rather than completely revamping the class.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, WoW 1.x was not like this. Each .x had a different class review. They released the game with just truly terrible talent options, abilities all over, no order or sense to any of it. They realized this, and also realized it would be a ton of work to fix all at once. So they said "We are going to revamp all the classes....one at a time." And they did, and each patch brought a specific new FotM class. While some people might decry they FotM cycle, the upside of it was that they took a look at what they wanted from a class, what was working, what wasn't, what the players liked, what they didn't, and then they retooled the abilities and talent trees to match that. And the balance slowly improved as they got all of the classes straightened out.

 

This might seem terrible, but, big lesson here, they told us in advance! We knew which class was getting its review. If the point of 1.2 was to make people play Operative healers again, they should have said so in advance, and then completely revamped them to fix all the many complaints. Instead they said nothing, buffed them slightly and nerfed the hell out of everyone else. It might make some people reroll as Sc/Op, but it will simply drive others away, and it doesn't leave a good feeling with anyone.

[oredith]

It might make some people reroll as Sc/Op, but it will simply drive others away, and it doesn't leave a good feeling with anyone.

speaking personally, it's more the case of being snubbed.

 

my feeling of what GZ said to us was "we know better than you, because we have secret numbers that you can't see".

 

so, if I play a BH, and I felt that a nerf was not needed - in fact, the opposite was needed - then i obviously don't know what i'm talking about.

[Antipathize]

Bioware's problem is actually a lot more than just "balance".

 

lets be realistic here - WoW went through a TON of nerf/balances, and there were TONS of general ************ that went on on the forums - sometimes valid, sometimes not, but that's honestly beside the point. here's why bioware is failing, whereas WoW was able to weather the QQ-storm.

 

1. wow had class leads - they communicated the whys of the nerf, you may not agree with them, but at least you had their official position in non-ambiguous terms.
   
2. more importantly - metrics have ALWAYS been public in wow. the method of gathering them might have been archaic at the start, but they've always been available, and when the devs said "____ is over performing", they, and more specifically, the PLAYERS were able to validate or refute these claims. Bioware has their secret bar that no one is privy to.
   
3. wow rebalanced at strategic times - around expansions and major (MAJOR) game changes, usually when level cap was changing, or drastic stat re-balance. This is not the case with ToR 1.2. and even then (next, and most important point)
   
4. wow went about balancing with a scalpel, not a 10lb sledge hammer - they identified a problem, and did changes to address those specific issues, while minding the balance to the rest of the classes. they didn't always hit their mark, and OFTEN required re-tuning, but they did so in small steps, rather than completely revamping the class.
   
5. ToR 1.2 is a game changer for BH - it completely changes the way we play the game. Instead of making decisions based upon triage, we are now making decisions based upon resource.

 

the combination of all of that, is a class killer for me.

 

i'm fairly happy tanking as a powertech BH though. kinda sad that my fat BH doesn't get to /doubleguns the women in raid as often as i did, and it's just not quite the same thing when you do it with a buxom chiss chick.

 

 

#4 was the point I was getting at. A scalpel is needed here if the metrics actually showed there was a problem. I agree that the large part of the problem is communication. The dev post I mentioned was very detailed and communicated why this was happening. As time went on, various ships and skills grew a bit out of control, so they are "trimming the branches" so to speak.

 

3-4 months after launch, it should not be necessary to sever half the tree and graft a new branch on, without explanation.

 

I filed a complaint with the BBB about a barn I had built. The problem wasn't that the door kept breaking, although it was highly inconvenient, it was because they didn't give me firm timelines to fix it, tries to blame me, and told me I was being ****** because I kept pressuring them.

 

they aren't treating us as customers, they are treating us as wallets. It's arrogant to assume that the people who play this game don't know as much or can't provide valuable input, and it's extremely unprofessional when I see GZ making snarky remarks to posts that 90% of the time aren't relevant to the original topic. On Ru's 1.2 test notes buried about 8 pages in, he offers a bunch of noninformation.

 

Even if they stated that they were high as a kite when designing classes, are sober now and trying to fit things within their original roles, then stated what those roles would be, it would at least retain enough subs to see the results.

[Miraj]

...

 

But I'm also seeing healers get blamed for a lot of things which have very little to do with healing. Last night we faced a very well-organized Imperial team in Huttball. Not only did they have three healers, one from each healing class, they were also extremely good at focus fire. They'd choose a target, hit that target with 3 or 4 DSPers at once, and it would just melt away. Then they'd choose a new target and do the same thing again.

 

My little pick-up group fought valiantly. We even managed to briefly capture two targets with some tricky maneuvering and some coordination of our own. But once the Imperials figured it out and sent their focus-firing Death Star, we didn't hold the second turret for long.

 

In Ops chat, no one seemed to acknowledge how well the DPSers on the opposing team worked together. Even though players on our team were withering under the Death Star's focus fire, all of the discussion focused on the three opposing healers. If their healers were less effective, the reasoning went, we would have won the game. Many of my teammates were even saying that they couldn't wait for the patch, and telling the other players (in our Ops chat...no I'm not sure how they expected the Imperial players to hear them) to "enjoy it while they can".

 

I see variations of this stuff every day, and it seems to be getting worse. As a healer, it frustrates me that my role is getting blamed for things that have nothing to do with healing. But as a player who wants to get better, it frustrates me even more that my teammates are so focused on healing that they're missing some really important information.

 

So, I read this several days ago and thought to myself "The nerfs might be coming, but at least I don't have to deal with this kind of crap." Until last night.

 

Now, some background. I spent the first chunk of my time at 50 in a hybrid 27/14/0 spec. When I hit valor rank 59 I decided to spec up to the top of Combat Medic and try it out. Suddenly my deaths dropped down dramatically. I followed up late on someone charging right turret in civil war against 5 Imps and ended up arriving just after my teammate died. I ran around in 4/14 battlemaster gear while 5 imps tried to kill me for 15-25 seconds before they finally succeeded. I laughed about it to my friends. But then, even though I was getting more battlemaster gear, my name was getting recognized. I'd appear and suddenly focus fire. A month later I'm in 12/14 BM. I run into a similar situation. This time I'm force choked and dead before force choke ends. Since I'm actually better geared, I can only assume that the difference lies in my opponents and not in whether or not I was having an OP day. Then there was last night.

 

It's a void star. I'm getting focused like crazy. At one point I drop down, fire one shot to keep someone from capping the door, and I'm dead before I can do anything else. Meanwhile on vent I hear "They really have some good healers." and "No wonder everyone says healing is OP." The fact that their DPS can kill me in the space of 2 GCDs apparently doesn't matter. And of course, it doesn't sink in when they say "They really know how to protect their healers - I was only able to get to them a couple of times." ... Reeeeally? Apparently the opposing team had no such problem getting to me.

 

End of match, two operative healers, one with 700k+ healed, one with a mere 500k+ healed. To my 340k healed, and 300k damage taken.

 

And after I comment that ops are the ones getting a healing buff in the patch while I'm being nerfed I get told "Admit it - you are OP. Remember how you said you were virtually unkillable right after you respecced?"

 

Oh yeah, and also I am OP because our gunslinger buddy can't kill a merc with a similar spec to mine, 1v1. Never mind that said Merc couldn't kill him, nor that our sent friend says he can 'pick him apart'. My role is clearly to run into PvP and die to one other player within 8 seconds. ... I wish I were joking and not basing this on actual conversation.

 

...

 

So yeah. I told myself I would wait until today's Q&A to unsubscribe - in case they did decide to actually explain some of these changes, or whether or not reverting the stat changes to gear was intentional or not... But I have the window open right now. And in the meantime I'm playing my level 25 Powertech alt because why bother playing my Commando when apparently I'm so bad at it that I feel challenged despite being "ridiculously OP".

[oredith]

Oh yeah, and also I am OP because our gunslinger buddy can't kill a merc with a similar spec to mine, 1v1. Never mind that said Merc couldn't kill him, nor that our sent friend says he can 'pick him apart'. My role is clearly to run into PvP and die to one other player within 8 seconds. ... I wish I were joking and not basing this on actual conversation.

i have no sympathy for anyone complaining about not being able to kill a merc healer, unless that person is a merc arsenal.

 

emergency scan is on a 21s cooldown, kolto shell heals for nothing, kolto missile heals for nothing (if a dps can't overcome those heals, they probably can't kill anyone anyways).

 

all they have to do is interrupt a merc, and it's over... -_-

[Amiable]

Healing is not OP. It never was. Healing with proper support is OP, and will continue to be so after the patch.

 

In the PvP scene most of the scrub players complain about DPS Merc/Sorcs. This is silly because anyone with some sense can LOS these classes and they do not really have any decent burst capabilities. The real OP DPS are maruaders/juggs/PTs especially groups of 3+ who focus fire. An unguarded player will die to that group in less than 4 seconds. The only counter to that is on the ball tanks who shield/taunt with proper healing support. This is as it should be. these groups can also be countered by focusing on objectives rather than kills. Having high damage numbrs/kills means nothing if you cannot take and hold objectives and if you need to send 6+ players on one node/door to accomplish your objective you are leaving somewhere else weak (excpet maybe on offensive voidstar). healers and tanks can be easily taken out of the equation with judicious uses of pulls/knockbacks. All this focus on raw numbers really doesn't do end game PvP justice. I would rather do 150k healing in a game where I solo gurded a node/door and we won than 600k healing in a game where we lost.

 

I play healing operative right now and if I am solo I will dies in 4 seconds to 3+ competent dps, if I have a decent tank protecting I literally can survive for 20-30 seconds against 5+ equally geared opponents unless they are very good at coordinating their cc and know when to interrupt me and the tank. That paradigm is not going to change after the patch.

 

Healing is not OP. Smart playing and coordination is OP, at least to scrubs who don't understand the basics of teamplay. The nerfs to healing are not going to change that. In general DPS players tend to be full of tunnelvision ******* who get angry when they can't get a kill (not all but a lot). I predict next patch will be full of QQ about tanks and how OP they are when more tank class players discover the utility of their guard and taunt buttons.

[RuQu]

Healing is not OP. It never was. Healing with proper support is OP, and will continue to be so after the patch.

 

That paradigm is not going to change after the patch.

 

Healing is not OP. Smart playing and coordination is OP, at least to scrubs who don't understand the basics of teamplay. The nerfs to healing are not going to change that. In general DPS players tend to be full of tunnelvision ******* who get angry when they can't get a kill (not all but a lot). I predict next patch will be full of QQ about tanks and how OP they are when more tank class players discover the utility of their guard and taunt buttons.

 

Have no fear, they will try again next patch.

[Soshla]

I am finally done complaining about the 1.2 changes. It's clear they don't take our feedback seriously, preferring to use non-representative test groups, metrics, and haruspices. So I've unsubbed. D3 will be out just in time for the end of school and Aion is free-to-play in the meantime. Edited April 6, 2012 by Soshla

[Aaoogaa]

Starting to see alot of 4 man DPS teams with specific classes. Marauders/Sages/Powertech DPS...Burst damage and interrupts mobility pulls harpoons...the team makeup of the future. I have watch 1 sent attacking a BM healer and easily kill the BM tank guarding. Glad his is on my side. The guard + healer combo isn't the strongest combo at all sadly. It is just to easy for certain classes to shut down healers in this game...guarded or not...and that is pre 1.2.

[RuQu]

I am finally done complaining about the 1.2 changes. It's clear they don't take our feedback seriously, preferring to use non-representative test groups, metrics, and haruspices. So I've unsubbed D3 will be out just in time for the end of school and Aion is free-to-play in the meantime.

 

And another one of the good ones falls.

 

I wonder if BW is noticing that the most helpful members of their forums are leaving, or if they consider it a good thing because they people most likely to protest are being silenced?

[Musezy]

I will complain until (A) I start having more fun or (B) I quit the game out of frustration. Complaining is simply another word for negative feedback... which is really our only way of letting the devs know that we are not happy customers. The more we complain and the louder we are, the better they will hear us.

[oredith]

I will complain until (A) I start having more fun or (B) I quit the game out of frustration. Complaining is simply another word for negative feedback... which is really our only way of letting the devs know that we are not happy customers. The more we complain and the louder we are, the better they will hear us.

pretty sure they've heard us.

 

the question is, whether they actually care, if if they have tuned out.

 

thus far, it has all the appearances of them tuning us out.

[XtremJedi]

I wouldn't say that they've tuned us out. I think that they believe that everybody will play after 1.2 goes in and feel ever so ashamed that they'd completely misunderstood the impact, and that everything's rosey - and so we'll all stick around.

 

Their own play and internal testing seems to fit what they want and the people in the high level testing guilds on PTS seem to agree that it's what BW wants. So they're pretty confident that they're doing what they believe to be right.

 

It will be what it will be now I reckon. It really doesn't look like they're planning any really meaningful adjustments of the changes, so far.

 

X

[RuQu]

I wouldn't say that they've tuned us out. I think that they believe that everybody will play after 1.2 goes in and feel ever so ashamed that they'd completely misunderstood the impact, and that everything's rosey - and so we'll all stick around.

X

 

This is almost certainly true. They think it's fine, and in their arrogance they cannot conceive that anyone could believe otherwise. They assume everyone will realize how foolish we have been to question their wisdom once it goes Live and we see the masterwork they have wrought.

 

Time will tell.

[pavelmatejka]

No wories I stoped complainig. I only pvp on my combat medic and realized this will have more impact on dps than me. Pvp only speaking dps can prepare to die respawn and run a lot more which doesnt realy give them any points. They say I have to pay attention to my resources well I did that anyway since most dps think they can jump a group of multiple enemies just like that. Old habits die hard and dont expect a heal fromcme in those situations since you know resource managment you know... Lol

[MarineGruntt]

Agreed, 99% of PUG DPS I have run into think that this is COD for the computer. They have absolutely no idea that they cannot solo the entire enemy team.

[Akaela]

I went through this stony silence at launch when they stonewalled us about Oceanic release, then when they refused to comment about us being able to play with over seas purchased copies. Then they come out killing healing in PVP and give us no real comment.

 

I wont be unsubbing yet, but I am close to doing it. My next sub will be for the shortest time possible, just to see how things go, after that I wont say either way.

 

I don't like DPSing in PVP. Been there, done it, was a solid average player. I'd rather heal because it's a challenge as it is. I like challenges, but I don't like being made totally worthless. I wont contribute to my team, I'll die faster than I already do (which is pretty fast as it is compared to my other characters).

 

In the end I play for fun, kill my class and play style, you kill my fun. And the whole reason I am here.

 

Dev's, get a clue. 99% of healers are upset. Some are unsubbing, some are doing the same as me. I haven't seen many (if any) that say "Oh I'll stick with this another 6 months!".

[Soshla]

And another one of the good ones falls.

 

I wonder if BW is noticing that the most helpful members of their forums are leaving, or if they consider it a good thing because they people most likely to protest are being silenced?

I doubt BW as a company focuses much on the forums. The little unsub blurbs are much easier to parse and generally more meaningful. I'm not sure if they're losing that many subs just yet. They might get a few who bandwagon in terror at the first server merge. I do expect them (and honestly, they should be expecting) to lose a fair amount of subs when D3 goes live.

 

In general, I don't think they put enough resources into Community Management. GZ should simply not be a mouthpiece at this point anymore. He should stick to developing and let someone else parlay information.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Soshla

[Battilea]

In general, I don't think they put enough resources into Community Management. GZ should simply not be a mouthpiece at this point anymore. He should stick to developing and let someone else parlay information.

 

Couldn't we do that the other way around, have him continue to parlay info but no longer in charge of developing?

[Xaearth]

Couldn't we do that the other way around, have him continue to parlay info but no longer in charge of developing?

 

You're assuming he's the one making all these changes.

 

I, personally, would hope his apparent lack of insight as to what's actually going on with the game has to do with a breakdown of communication between him and his subordinates rather than total incompetence and/or malice on his part.

 

If he's the one making the changes AND doesn't know what those changes are and/or whether or not they were even going to end up on the PTS...

 

Or he just likes trolling us.

[Battilea]

You're assuming he's the one making all these changes.

 

He's in charge of that, so, yes, he'd have final say on the changes, though obviously working as part of a team. He's not a PR guy. If he were, he'd be way better at that part of the job, rather than making sure to slip in something designed to annoy operatives/scoundrels in every interview.

 

Or he just likes trolling us.

 

Definitely possible.

 

However, given that roving gangs of RZ comments are making people unsub, if they follow their policy, they should be nerfing him soon.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Battilea

[Masturomenos]

Until BW allows test that are controlled they will keep changing things the wrong way for pvp.

 

On live the data theyve collcted is not controled since you do not get into a WZ based on gear so any data pulled from those WZs is based on multiple levels of gear between whos playing. A fresh 50 will think everyone is OP who outgears them. So to use that data for balance is incorrect.

 

On the ptr you cannot get a game of 8v8 where the gear level is the same across both teams. Untl we can get on ptr and have the bis gear to test changes then the changes are just random. If you pull just numbers from a wz and one team has BH heals in BM gear and the other has OP healers in greens numbers will tell you tht BH needs a nerf and OP a buff. That is not a proper test.

 

When 1.2 goes live and ranked teams get qued into games with unraked fresh 50s then again the results pulled will show the better geared player toons need a nerf nd the lower geared player toons need a buff.

 

The whole point of a ptr is to test changes with players in equal gearr so the spells of classes can be adjusted. Without that cntrolled eviroment to test chnges the changes will be made by guessing.

 

Thats why for pve the devs asked for the best guilds to be copied over since top guilds in NM mode farming status are all equally geared so you get a real sense of what the gear adds to the class and spec.

 

Until the tests are fixed to make gear equal so that the focuss can be on the actual classes and specs everything done for classes will be wrong and simply trying to balance classes for every part of the game and every level based on what nM raiding guilds showed them. The end result will be even greater issues that will cause major issues come wednesday after 1.2 pops.

 

Without proper testing u get thw wrong results. 1.2 is based on bad info calculted improprly. The tests are not done correctly so the changes are also incorrect.

 

When will people tinking that the changes made were right learn that unless ur in the best guild in the best gear and only raiding nightmare modes the chages to ur class will make u hate the game.

 

The 1% may be ok come tuesday but the other 99% especially the ones who havent been on the ptr and have not seen what happens when u play with the 1.2 changes are going to be louder and mader then anyone whos complained the entire time telling the community that the balance is s bad on the ptr ur better off rerolling to a class left unhanged or buffed.

 

As a healer i cannot stay alive on the ptr longer then my tank spec assassin and maybe my assasin cant heal anyone but my BH cant either. Atleast dps can dps and use spells for self heals and take damage. A healer cannot dps and cannot keep themselves alive much less their teamates.

 

People the majority will be cannon fodder come 1.2 and please when u r dont blame ur healer because we are all rerolling juggs and assassins.

[sheeldon]

u all complain about the game being to eazy that is why they nerfed stoofz to make it harder and now u complain its to hard D:D::