Bioware opening the door to "Hackers" with combat log

[Chewpaco]

Jesus, you are think. The OPs premise is that you are open to being hacked because to use the ghetto combat log, you need to go to an external website. If we had REAL combat log/metering, this wouldn't be the case.

 

Not that I agree with the premise that you might get hacked, its still fair to say that if we weren't getting these watered down logs external sites wouldn't be necessary and then the OPs complaint. no matter how unlikely, would be moot.

 

What is necessary about using an external site atm? From my understanding, there is no need to use an external site for anything in this game. People are clearing HM content every day.

 

I will never understand this issue in a positive way. It seems to me, that the main reasons some people want combat parers are:

 

1. A way to point a finger and say, its' not my fault, it's your fault.

2. Look how great I am.

 

A very distant 3rd, some guilds will use it to form strategies regarding encounters. But, as we have all seen thus far - because guilds are clearing content every single day without it, is that you can figure out the challenges/problems within an encounter without looking at a spreadsheet.

 

This leaves me scratching my head. What do people really want? It's not like the lack of a combat parser is holding guilds back from clearing content. And it sends me back to my first 2 conclusions.

[Brool]

What is necessary about using an external site atm? From my understanding, there is no need to use an external site for anything in this game. People are clearing HM content every day.

 

I will never understand this issue in a positive way. It seems to me, that the main reasons some people want combat parers are:

 

1. A way to point a finger and say, its' not my fault, it's your fault.

2. Look how great I am.

 

A very distant 3rd, some guilds will use it to form strategies regarding encounters. But, as we have all seen thus far - because guilds are clearing content every single day without it, is that you can figure out the challenges/problems within an encounter without looking at a spreadsheet.

 

This leaves me scratching my head. What do people really want? It's not like the lack of a combat parser is holding guilds back from clearing content. And it sends me back to my first 2 conclusions.

 

+1

 

I would love to see an ingame personal combat log, but thats only so i know what was hitting me so hard.

[sempuken]

So, you can't quote anyone saying that... perhaps you should quit with the strawman?

 

Sure there is; there are lots of things wrong with lots of the things that they're doing.

 

Do you actually have a valid argument for anything in this post? I have read all ur replies, but it seems you would rather argue with everyone else than accept that security is up to the user...

 

Going on about a strawman, doesn't constitute an argument. If bioware wants to make an out of game parser they can. If they want to make the parser require you to disable all your anti-virus/spam programs in order to use it, they can. It is their game! It is up to you whether you choose to use it.

 

By stating Bioware is even involved with "opening the door to hackers" is lunacy.

 

Maybe I shouldn't put gas in my car, cuz the oil companies are "opening the door" to rising oil prices.

Edited March 26, 2012 by sempuken

[Esproc]

blame the anti combat log/meter brigade.

 

Blame yourself for demanding an "I Need" tool when everyone and their mother/father/grandfather does the HM/NM modes content already w/out these tools.

 

Just because you've pried open the door, and didn't get a silver spoon and platter with "all the 'necessary' meters/parsers/addons/et al" "because Evey Other Game Has Them!" doesn't give you the rights to lay blame on any one , except perhaps yourself, for not proving an argument to your desires and wants, which are different from needs.

 

BW is providing a parser, and you are not happy with the design, so now you wish to apply 3rd party code to the game to work around the mechanics set up by BW. If you do so, and get hacked or pick up malicious code, you are the only one to blame.

 

Leave us anti-WoW clone/other game clone people out of it, many of us enjoy this game, and if you haven't realized by now it is called SWTOR.

[Muertepk]

Right so your argument is counting on people to be smart, don't see any flaw in that?

 

no i dont see the flaw.

 

this isnt a kiddie game you need your parents permission to play.

 

if you cant parse the logs yourself and you are paranoid of using the internet, then dont parse the logs. its pretty simple.

 

 

all i see here is bioware should do this becasue other game did it, bioware should do this or else people will get account stolen, how would you get a account stolen? they need your secret questions and if you have a smart phone or a physical security key the worst is account locked until you call bioware....

 

malicious websites? yeah im sure 1.7 million people will rush en masse to those malicious web sites to pasre combat logs.

 

this thread isnt constructive at all. the OP is in a scare tactic tone. there is NO threat from anything as the patch isnt even close to being released. combat logs? only a vocal minority will use them. and it isnt even a proper combat log, its for those people who scream into the headset at other people who dont perform to some mysterious standards some d bag raid leader sets..... sorry. the whole concept of its biowares job to count on people to not get hacked isnt biowares responsibility.

 

its each players personal responsibility to have safeguards in place when using a OS or browser. if the parsing was done in house on a bioware site then yes some of these strawfilled arguments would have a skosh of merit. maaybe thats the direction folks should lean, into making sure bioware provides the tools on bioware swtor website....

 

topic as it stands does nothing to even come close to convincing me there is going to be a issue, its just another in the long long line of "the sky is falling" "tee hee see how many people i can fool before the threads closed lulz" "wolf! wolf over there *giggle* WOLF i say wolf"

 

convince bioware to host the tools and records like valve does. hook it up with your swtor profile yes? goto your profile page and see your combat log.... then if somehow bioware lets a program onto their web page and it infects everyone...then you might have a argument.

 

THEN IF FUTURE NOT OUT YET THERE IS NO FIRE ITS YOUR RESPONSIBLITY NOT BIOWARES PROBLEM, you all wanted combat logs, eat it suck it up and use them or dont use them,

 

but its not the community nor the company that is responsible for YOUR internet lack of common sense. sorry brass tax bottom line you can take from it what you will and all that implies...

Edited March 26, 2012 by Muertepk

[Phenyr]

People get their info stolen numerous ways but one of the top ways is via malicious web pages.

 

People are now going to be checking web pages that are offering ways to parse the offline combat log. It's a pretty safe wager not all of those web pages are going to have honest intent.

 

I am not sure why Bioware does not offer an in game version of combat parse so we can just check it right there. Instead we are going to have to rely on external sources. Sadly many players do not practice good web safety and they will get their accounts stolen.

 

This impacts us all because now the customer service people are even more tied up dealing with an issue that would have been very simple to avoid.

 

Cant believe im even reading or posting here but throwing the responsibility over the more or less lack of some kinda of software that can prevent such 'hack' over BW, i have to say sorry my friend its not BW responsabillity to keep some one machine safe.

 

Is like why X developer software does not do 'that' and because if you get 'that' from unknown third party 'hack' might happen so is the X developer fault.

 

It is not imperative to have such things while playing the game. If one choose to get those is on its own risk, and if one gets 'hacked' sorry stay in the queue like every one else, and yes dont get them 2nd time to avoid making queue on customers service.

 

But nice anology to throw the 'cat' in BW garden over such things.

[Frostvein]

What is necessary about using an external site atm? From my understanding, there is no need to use an external site for anything in this game. People are clearing HM content every day.

 

Blame yourself for demanding an "I Need" tool when everyone and their mother/father/grandfather does the HM/NM modes content already w/out these tools.

 

Do either of you have the statistics that shows the percentage of people who attempt and complete hardmode and nightmare mode ops?

 

No?

 

Well then, do you think its safe to assume that there is a portion of the playerbase who is wiping to these encounters without knowing how or why? And, given the ability to parse their groups damage, they might be able to figure it out?

Edited March 26, 2012 by Frostvein

[Shingara]

I realize reading the entire thread might be too big of a stretch for you, but you'll notice that I specifically said that I didn't necessarily agree with his premise of getting hacked, only that if we had an internal real combat log he wouldn't need to go to an external 3rd party website.

 

 

 

Yes, I am sorry that I expected the game to come with a combat log, a standard of the MMO genre since the mid to late 90's. Foolish me.

 

Your not asking for a combat log, your asking for an ingame parser and yet again i ask name one mainstream mmo that has it.

[sempuken]

Your not asking for a combat log, your asking for an ingame parser and yet again i ask name one mainstream mmo that has it.

 

 

he cant, cuz there arent any.

[Esproc]

Yay! The usual fear-mongering drivel from the anti-combat log crowd.

 

Nothing to see here folks. Move along!

 

 

Cleopas

Joined: Dec 2008

Today , 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Englefield

I hate these sports analogies. You aren't a professional sportsman and this is not what you're doing for a living, it's what you're doing for a hobby. If you want a real sports analogy, you're just part of a pub football team playing in a Sunday league with a bunch of mates in your spare time.

I do and we keep these stats for bragging rights, to see who should bat where in the next game, and to see who gets MVP/All tournament, etc.

 

And some of us did play sports professionally or in college and thus this competitive streak is still alive. The analogy fits.

...............--------------------......................--------------------....................

 

 

Epeen expressed in Truth, no need for these logs, especially as I posted already that All the Content is being cleared. So asides from an Epeen stroke and letting tools tell you how you should play with specs/ builds/rotations/hit this button now, you didn't earn that, you were told how to do it, follow steps 1, 2, 3, rinse repeat, oh no, more dps, got to win the meter race.

 

L2P for yourself, use your own minds people, or are you that fallen into the Entitlement mentality? Just add one Big Button that says "I WIN!!!".

 

p.s. For those that have somehow yet to figure this one out, I am one of those Anti meter/addon/any tool that is not in THIS game that is "In Every Other Game" (which is a Lie) and wants SWTOR to be SWTOR and not CloneWow (or Other game you should perhaps be playing).

 

/waves hand "Move along, this is SWTOR and may not be suited to your Entitlement perspectives.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Esproc

[Frostvein]

he cant, cuz there arent any.

 

You are right, I cant. Why? Because other recent mainstream MMO's allow addons that do it in game. WoW, Rift, and Aion all have addons.

 

"AH HA!" You scream triumphantly. "There are no games that allow meters natively in game! Thus, your argument is invalid!"

 

Not so fast there Timmy. Let me explain before you wander off and get lost.

 

Other games have a fully functioning combat log that allows the groups damage to be parsed. Thus, only one person in group needs to use the third party website that the OP fears.

 

However, our soon to be here combat log lite requires each and every individual to upload their damage in order for the rest of the group to see it. So where previously in WoW, Aion or Rift, only one person needed the tool to parse data. Now, everyone does.

 

Did everyone use recount anyway? I dunno, probably. That is not really the point. My point was, since we don't have a fully functioning group combat log, instead of requiring the minimum of one person to use an outside tool we are requiring everyone to do so.

 

Now, here is the key - while I don't agree with the premise of the OP's arguments, he wouldn't need to make it if someone in his group could parse his data for him.

 

This is why I prefer one for HM/Nightmare ops only. A group combat log that requires one person to use. I don't really care what anyone else does in PvE content outside of that. I feel like there should be one in PvP, if only to tell what you got hit for and by, but I don't know if I'd make a stand for it.

[chimex]

To the OP,

 

Do not blame others for your own actions. Nobody has forced you to go onto these sites. It was your decision, and yours alone. To blame someone else for that shows your arrogance, ego and exactly why combat logs have been designed the way they have in SWTOR.

 

You have been given a fully working combat log to view at your own leasure with the upcomming patch. To ask for more is not only ungrateful, but also ignorant of the view of others who do wish to have their game dominated by number crunching. It may sound odd to you, but some people prefer to use their heads to figure things out. Some people don't need a DPS meter to know if they are playing ok, they use common sense. Some people don't read stupid online guides for the "optimum" play styles and FP runs!!

 

As odd as it sounds to you, some people enjoy the game for what it is. They do not see the need to have a list of figures thrown at them, nor do they want people lecturing them on why they are considered a "bad player". If people wanted that, they would play Wow.

 

No other MMO has an in-game parce, and you know that as fact. Any game which "includes" such programs have tollerated these programs from outside sources such as Add-ons.

 

If you dont want to run the risk of getting hacked, get better anti virus software. Better still, you can take your head out your can and realise that you have your precious DPS meter. If you don't like what you have been given, tough. You have been given your tool, don't be so ungrateful

 

Chime x

Edited March 26, 2012 by chimex

[Muertepk]

seems pretty clear:

• with an in-game-parsed combat log = no reason to look for a dps parser on the internet.
  
• without an in-game-parsed combat log = there is a reason to look for a dps parser on the internet.
  

 

the latter situation clearly has more people browsing 3rd party websites, and there is more reason for someone to put up a malicious 3rd party website (since they get more bang for their buck in that situation).

 

you must think everyone else but you is a idiot.

 

you keep dropping words like straw man and you pick things out of context and argue back. you are the proverbial pot calling everyone else black.

 

i guess most people get their swtor info from random im feeling lucky google searches right?

 

they dont come to the web site of the game and see the headlines. then again i guess the dozen wiki sites wont have any kind of tools you can use.......oh wait those wont be tools those will be VIRUSES and KEYLOGGERS oh noes the population is going to be getting accounts stolen because bioware can prevent hacking by using in game logs, so make sure the game has MORE computations to deal with on top of everything else.

 

so the MAJORITY of the gamers playing SWTOR right now are morons and idiots who have no clue about using the internet securely and will just pop onto what ever site they see with no forethoughts and just click on links and download things with no thought and then go "durr i gotz haxord" thats exactly what the OP and you and a few others who dropped out of the thread are arguing..... that everyone who plays this game or at least the MAJORITY of us are complete tards.

 

im sure that 1 million players will disagree with your assumptions that the MAJORITY of SWTOR players are complete and utter failures at interwebz.

 

really? we all are suckers who clicky click and cant tell whats legit and whats a poor attempt to scam? hey did you know that its bad to sell your wow account? i just got a email saying i should goto these official looking links and log in using my wow account info to verify the charges and i might lose my account if i dont?

 

geez i bettah jump on that real quick and click those links right?

 

pretty sad when you are basically calling the rest of us *******es who cant use the internet and calling out bioware to PREVENT us from getting hacked.

 

what a joke this topic was

 

tl;dr? heres the skinny....

 

learn 2 read faster.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Zilrota
removed filter avoidance.

[Chewpaco]

Do either of you have the statistics that shows the percentage of people who attempt and complete hardmode and nightmare mode ops?

 

No?

 

Well then, do you think its safe to assume that there is a portion of the playerbase who is wiping to these encounters without knowing how or why? And, given the ability to parse their groups damage, they might be able to figure it out?

 

I do not have those statistics Frostvein.

 

I do know that as of 1 month ago, I believe it was a pretty small % of the player base even participated in an operation. 28% comes to mind, but don't quote me. And of that, certainly an even smaller portion will have attempted a NM version.

 

I understand the value of a combat parser for guilds. You are absolutley right. More guilds would clear content with them.

 

However, you must admit that there are a lot of negative side effects that accompany such tools. Just like a drug. Solves one problem, but amplifies/cause other conditions.

 

Can you become constipated without taking Vicodin? Sure. But if you are taking Vicodin 4 times a day to solve a pain issue you have, no doubt you will become constipated much more often.

 

Can you have people be eliteist and rude to others without a parser? Sure. Will the problem be amplified with one? Without a doubt.

[Shingara]

You are right, I cant. Why? Because other recent mainstream MMO's allow addons that do it in game. WoW, Rift, and Aion all have addons.

 

"AH HA!" You scream triumphantly. "There are no games that allow meters natively in game! Thus, your argument is invalid!"

 

Not so fast there Timmy. Let me explain before you wander off and get lost.

 

Other games have a fully functioning combat log that allows the groups damage to be parsed. Thus, only one person in group needs to use the third party website that the OP fears.

 

However, our soon to be here combat log lite requires each and every individual to upload their damage in order for the rest of the group to see it. So where previously in WoW, Aion or Rift, only one person needed the tool to parse data. Now, everyone does.

 

 

Did everyone use recount anyway? I dunno, probably. That is not really the point. My point was, since we don't have a fully functioning group combat log, instead of requiring the minimum of one person to use an outside tool we are requiring everyone to do so.

 

Now, here is the key - while I don't agree with the premise of the OP's arguments, he wouldn't need to make it if someone in his group could parse his data for him.

 

This is why I prefer one for HM/Nightmare ops only. A group combat log that requires one person to use. I don't really care what anyone else does in PvE content outside of that. I feel like there should be one in PvP, if only to tell what you got hit for and by, but I don't know if I'd make a stand for it

.

 

Your point falls down the second you state that others do not and rely on addons, a combat log that records everyones data or one that records only your data wouldnt make a jot of differencve when it comes to swtor as there are no addons and they have said no to addons so an ingame parser still wouldnt be in effect and would still have tobe done the old fasioned way of parse to a database and there is nothing to stop a guild compiling all the parse data to show what everyone in the operations group was doing at what time.

 

So yet again as you cannot name one mmo that has live in game parse it isnt the standard no matter how you look at it, the only standard is that people have created addons to live parse within games that allow addons to run.

 

Of which i class as lazy development on the part of other mmos, if bioware are going todo anything with ingame parsing then they would be the 1st company todo so and as such wouldnt be relying on 3rd partys to create developed content for there games when they are quite capable of doing it themselves.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Shingara

[Andryah]

The reality of why this thread was created: to reprosecute the discussion and complaints about Bioware not providing public logging, combat meters, and addons to the game.

 

OP is not concerned about internet security and malicious web sites, by his own admission. But he does care deeply about Biowares decison and disagrees with it, also by his own admission.

 

This thread is meant to continue the debate and complaint about Biowares decision on the matter. As evidenced by the same voices promoting an internet security threat here in this thread that frequented the combat log thread to promote public logging and reporting of combat data.

[Brool]

all could of been solved with a simple tab in game next to chat that shows how much you got hit for, how much you hit and what hit you.

 

PS. Im against meters.

[Novare]

People get their info stolen numerous ways but one of the top ways is via malicious web pages.

 

People are now going to be checking web pages that are offering ways to parse the offline combat log. It's a pretty safe wager not all of those web pages are going to have honest intent.

 

I am not sure why Bioware does not offer an in game version of combat parse so we can just check it right there. Instead we are going to have to rely on external sources. Sadly many players do not practice good web safety and they will get their accounts stolen.

 

This impacts us all because now the customer service people are even more tied up dealing with an issue that would have been very simple to avoid.

 

Your logic is completely flawed. You can not in anyway shape or form blame bioware for what someone else does.

 

Lets use your logic for a second. I hereby blame blizzard for making wow and thus guildwebsites being made that had keyloggers.

 

I blame the makers of rift for having combat logs that needed a parser.

 

I blame the makers of any product that requires me to visit a website for any information at all.

 

 

I understand you didnt get what you wanted and so know have to come up with half baked attacks to try to sway ppl to your cause but this attempt is just laughably ignorant.

[ferroz]

you must think everyone else but you is a idiot.

No. I mean, if you're having problems following that, you have problems with reading comprehension, but that doesn't make you an idiot.

 

you keep dropping words like straw man and you pick things out of context and argue back. you are the proverbial pot calling everyone else black.

No, I'm calling straw man arguments straw man arguments. And I try really hard to make sure I keep arguments in context.

 

can you give me any examples of where I've taken something out of context? Any at all? Particularly one from this thread?

 

 

i guess most people get their swtor info from random im feeling lucky google searches right?

I don't have any data.

 

I do know that people sometimes aren't good at finding things on the internet and all too often fall for various scammy web sites that seem to have what they're looking for but are actually viruses or keyloggers. There are also several exploits (particularly with java iirc) where you can get infected without even downloading anything.

 

having worked in IT as long as I have, it seems pretty obvious that if more people are out on the interwebs looking for damage parsers, there will be more people hacked than if it was something handled by the game client.

 

they dont come to the web site of the game and see the headlines.

Well, yeah, the vast majority of the player base doesn't come to the web site. The last time I saw a serious study of it, it was something like 5% of the players of the MMO had ever gone to the website.

 

so the MAJORITY of the gamers playing SWTOR right now are morons and idiots who have no clue about using the internet securely and will just pop onto what ever site they see with no forethoughts and just click on links and download things with no thought and then go "durr i gotz haxord" thats exactly what the OP and you and a few others who dropped out of the thread are arguing.....that everyone who plays this game or at least the MAJORITY of us are complete tards.

No, I've never argued anything like that. I've never talked about the majority; I've never called anyone a moron or idiot

 

This is called a strawman argument. You're misrepresenting my argument as something that's easy for you to refute in order to try and refute my original claims. It's generally a sign of not being able to come up with a valid counter argument.

 

 

I'd have quoted the rest, but it seems to be more of the same strawman.

Edited March 26, 2012 by ferroz

[Chewpaco]

You are right, I cant. Why? Because other recent mainstream MMO's allow addons that do it in game. WoW, Rift, and Aion all have addons.

 

"AH HA!" You scream triumphantly. "There are no games that allow meters natively in game! Thus, your argument is invalid!"

 

Not so fast there Timmy. Let me explain before you wander off and get lost.

 

Other games have a fully functioning combat log that allows the groups damage to be parsed. Thus, only one person in group needs to use the third party website that the OP fears.

 

However, our soon to be here combat log lite requires each and every individual to upload their damage in order for the rest of the group to see it. So where previously in WoW, Aion or Rift, only one person needed the tool to parse data. Now, everyone does.

 

Did everyone use recount anyway? I dunno, probably. That is not really the point. My point was, since we don't have a fully functioning group combat log, instead of requiring the minimum of one person to use an outside tool we are requiring everyone to do so.

 

Now, here is the key - while I don't agree with the premise of the OP's arguments, he wouldn't need to make it if someone in his group could parse his data for him.

 

This is why I prefer one for HM/Nightmare ops only. A group combat log that requires one person to use. I don't really care what anyone else does in PvE content outside of that. I feel like there should be one in PvP, if only to tell what you got hit for and by, but I don't know if I'd make a stand for it.

 

But can't you see that the "Combat Log Lite" as you like to call it, solves the only problem worth solving?

 

Yes. Guilds should have the ability to Parse their groups damage and make decisions based off of those numbers on how to proceed. They can all discuss via their website the expectations for this. This solves the playerbase's concerns that are part of a guild that relies on this type of information to succeed.

 

While it may be an added step that takes a few minutes longer to get the correct data. It provides a layer of NEEDED security to the community, by removing what can be a malicious tool - from idiots.

[ferroz]

But can't you see that the "Combat Log Lite" as you like to call it, solves the only problem worth solving?

No... I can see that other people have other problems that they want solved, and that their desires are worthwhile even if they aren't my desires. So there are certainly other problems worth solving. Edited March 26, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

Your logic is completely flawed.

The logic in the post you quoted seems pretty straightforward.

 

The current implementation that is coming = an increase in CSR requests due to hacking.

 

You can not in anyway shape or form blame bioware for what someone else does.

He isn't as far as I can tell.

 

Lets use your logic for a second. I hereby blame blizzard for making wow and thus guildwebsites being made that had keyloggers.

 

I blame the makers of rift for having combat logs that needed a parser.

 

I blame the makers of any product that requires me to visit a website for any information at all.

That's not his logic.

[Chewpaco]

No... I can see that other people have other problems that they want solved, and that their desires are worthwhile even if they don't agree with my desires.

 

Well - Too bad for you. In order to function within a community, which more and more of the players of the MMO genre seem to know nothing about, you must learn to compromise.

 

Combat Log Lite is a compromise. I applaud BW for coming to plausible one.

 

If it were up to me, and many others - there would never be a combat parser, never be a combat log. The information is available via audio/video clues within an encounter. People are succeeding without it. It is a tool soley used by E-Peens to belittle others.

 

Pro Combat Parser users want the information to improve their ability to make fast adjustments to clear content, armed with statistical analysis.

 

You want to know your DPS? Join a guild and upload your data. It will be possible.

 

The people left inbetween the 2 sides, unwilling to join a guild and upload their data, and people that would never upload their data at all, are probably not the people that should have access to a parser to begin with - as they probably are the ones most likely to abuse it.

[Captain_Zone]

I still say Battleclinic would probably support the combat logs. Win/Loss records and damage done/received. They're a trusted website and good at what they do.

 

And while we're at it, get a TOR Killboard set up there as well as a Fitting forum for armor/weapon builds for different classes.

[ferroz]

But can't you see that the "Combat Log Lite" as you like to call it, solves the only problem worth solving?

No... I can see that other people have other problems that they want solved, and that their desires are worthwhile even if they don't agree with my desires.

 

Well - Too bad for you. In order to function within a community, which more and more of the players of the MMO genre seem to know nothing about, you must learn to compromise.

Really...

 

so, you can't see that other people's desires are worthwhile.

I can.

... and you think I have a problem with the idea of compromise?

 

the fact that I can see that other people's desires are worthwhile = "too bad for <you>"

 

It is a tool that is used by E-Peens to belittle others, among other things.

Fixed that for you. People have given lots of examples where it's not being used by an e-peen to belittle someone else.

 

So using the word "solely" is a just simply false.

Edited March 26, 2012 by ferroz