Enexemander Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Nerfing isn't a solution to anything, bringing the other trees up to par for overall gameplay balance is. The real only difference in what tree to spec into should be class role+playstyle. I agree Decep needs a big boost and should be as viable in pvp but this doesn't have to cost Darkness anything to be done. Shame as it is now, wanted to stay Decep but far far too squishy just to have a glowy yo-yo attack and 5% more dps that I can easily make up for through swap outs in gear. Sigh. I swap specs constantly because I want to fully explore the classes I play. Darkness is powerful, but it is not burst. It is NOT a healer killer, and you will NEED people that can drop a healer in rated matches. It's not even a 5% difference. That's a joke. A deception assassin, after 2 voltaic's, can then pop cooldowns and use the next 2 globals to crit for over 12k. No other assassin spec can do that. I'm not sure any other CLASS can do that. Sure, channel force lightning in darkness at a competent healer. Watch as they laugh at you. No healer laughs when a competent deception assassin is on them. Darkness- tank and utility (pull) Deception- Burst and control Madness- Steady dps and control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Xzygy Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Darkness loses a lot of its appeal when you're not in Huttball. Solo? Sure. Darkness is great. But if I have a competent healer, I will rip people apart as deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandraMoody Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Sigh. I swap specs constantly because I want to fully explore the classes I play. Darkness is powerful, but it is not burst. It is NOT a healer killer, and you will NEED people that can drop a healer in rated matches. It's not even a 5% difference. That's a joke. A deception assassin, after 2 voltaic's, can then pop cooldowns and use the next 2 globals to crit for over 12k. No other assassin spec can do that. I'm not sure any other CLASS can do that. Sure, channel force lightning in darkness at a competent healer. Watch as they laugh at you. No healer laughs when a competent deception assassin is on them. Darkness- tank and utility (pull) Deception- Burst and control Madness- Steady dps and control Missing 2 things, 1st any player that lets a Decep get off more than one VS isn't paying attention. 2nd any "Burst" that has a huge ramp up reliant on procs isn't burst at all not to mention having a pocket healer so they can stay alive to even get a few of them off without a faceplant. Against a healer with ADHD then sure okay great damage..against any other class is meh. Mebbie I've had a ton of stupid ones come at me in WZ's idk but as darkness tonight in wz's they were more than easy kills. On my server I have yet to see a decep in the top 3 damage wise but I have been as a hybrid spec darkness...DPS gear ofc. I can even kill them on my sorc np, kite+dot>>FS+Electro+Reckless+FL and just watch em die before they get the 1st VS off, if they get the drop on me? that's easy too, bubble+heal then rinse and repeat last and bam easy kill. So much harder to kill a well played Ops or a Pyro than a Decep Sin. I too have played every spec including the 27/0/14 and the one thing I've noticed overall is that surviving is the precursor to any and all dps. Can't have the latter without the former. Why anyone would say the deception spec is fine is beyond me, it's obviously sub-par by comparison, but that's okay the proof will be in the logs when BW brings it. Edited March 27, 2012 by MandraMoody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandraMoody Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Update: just ran HB on my sorc and got cornered by a decep who managed to get off ONE VS ...the medal I got from murdering him was pretty;p Decep needs buffed. Edited March 27, 2012 by MandraMoody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfVey Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) How to make deception assassins a viable and desirable spec without breaking them in two easy steps: 1. Move disjunction to tier 1 darkness so everyone can get it. 2 more secs on force shroud and force speed breaking roots would give deception a little more mobility and a little more survivability. This is probably the best single talent point you can spend for pvp in all 3 trees but since it's in tier 3 of darkness all the 31 point decep/madness builds can't get it. Just making it baseline and not even be a talent would also be an option. Feels like something everyone should have, it completes the class. 2. Change the armor on insulation in tier 1 deception from 15/30% to 30/60%. Certainly wouldn't make anyone a tank from this but it would provide a little more survivability. And that's it. Note neither of these things would buff tankasins in any way, as they get disjunction already and don't have a use for insulation since they use dark charge. Edited March 27, 2012 by ShadowOfVey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enexemander Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 There's damage and then there's MEANINGFUL damage. If you do 300k damage overall, but don't make a healer sweat, all you've accomplished is padding the meters for the other team's healer. If you do 200k damage overall, and drop healers left and right and kill targets before heals get off on them, you've actually helped your team significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 You can't pressure another healer if you're basically eliminated by the first toss that includes a side effect, and most of them do. Forget survival issues. You can't even get close to any good ranged/healer without Disjunction. If you move Disjunction any lower you might as well make it an innate ability at level 50, which isn't a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ch_Zero Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Let me clearly explain this. There have been numbers run and deception has no place in endgame. None. PVE damage = Madness it does 10% more damage than deception. PVE tanking = darkness (obviously) PVP = Darkness (most helpful and powerful in warzones) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xDevious Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Let me clearly explain this. There have been numbers run and deception has no place in endgame. None. PVE damage = Madness it does 10% more damage than deception. PVE tanking = darkness (obviously) PVP = Darkness (most helpful and powerful in warzones) Yup thats why it needs some survival and dps increase. Not having to wait to get 5 static charges to be able to fully burst would help. Just have every melee attack count towards them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acindo Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 DPS is perfectly viable for me. I never have or will see a Tank spec Sin/Shadow kill someone as fast as me. So what if they have more overall damage then me due to AoE. The other day I burst a Marauder so fast he didn't even have time to use that 99% damage reduction crap. He then /t me to say how shocked he was. Good luck doing that in tank spec. If they wanna buff DPS spec that's cool to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xDevious Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 DPS is perfectly viable for me. I never have or will see a Tank spec Sin/Shadow kill someone as fast as me. So what if they have more overall damage then me due to AoE. The other day I burst a Marauder so fast he didn't even have time to use that 99% damage reduction crap. He then /t me to say how shocked he was. Good luck doing that in tank spec. If they wanna buff DPS spec that's cool to. You are missing the point. No ranked team will take a deception over a darkness one when there are mara/sents to choose from for dps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philelectric Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 It does need nerfed. DPS wearing sin tanks do way too much damage. Why do you think everyone specs it and not the other trees? According to this, we should nerf every most played build of every class... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acindo Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 You are missing the point. No ranked team will take a deception over a darkness one when there are mara/sents to choose from for dps Well I don't think I missed the point reading the OPs post.. He said it is being completely overlooked and not experimented with. So I said what I think of Deception. Anyway, I have friends. If I want to play Ranked as Deception I will. In the end I play for fun over anything else. If there is a Mara to choose doesn't matter what spec Sin you are Mara is prob better and is probably going to be my 3rd toon haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xDevious Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Well I don't think I missed the point reading the OPs post.. He said it is being completely overlooked and not experimented with. So I said what I think of Deception. Anyway, I have friends. If I want to play Ranked as Deception I will. In the end I play for fun over anything else. If there is a Mara to choose doesn't matter what spec Sin you are Mara is prob better and is probably going to be my 3rd toon haha. Exactly. Everyone is going to take a mara/sent next expansion for dps. No point in having a deception assassin at all. Its depressing. Deception just needs a boost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sTRaTeGiiZe Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Exactly. Everyone is going to take a mara/sent next expansion for dps. No point in having a deception assassin at all. Its depressing. Deception just needs a boost I don't think you understand how important high burst switches are gonna be in rateds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordeguy Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Nerfing darkness damage would be beyond stupid. If you're in pvp and you don't know how to interrupt their HD FL you deserve the damage you take. It's painfully obvious when they have 3 stacks, and its painfully obvious that they will be doing their best to build up to that. Any sort of stun, KB/Pull or disorient is all it takes to avoid their hardest hitting move. And seeing as it channels you have plenty of time to stop it before the full damage. Don't get me wrong I know darkness is great in pvp right now, but nerfing it's damage would be a terrible decision. There is a PvE side of the game too, in which a darkness assassins damage is pretty low. Lower that anymore and darkness sins are going to be losing aggro and hitting way more close enrage timers than they should. People need to get over their mindset of anything better off than them should be brought down to their level instead of their own class/spec getting brought up to par. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushela Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Nerfing darkness damage would be beyond stupid. If you're in pvp and you don't know how to interrupt their HD FL you deserve the damage you take. It's painfully obvious when they have 3 stacks, and its painfully obvious that they will be doing their best to build up to that. Any sort of stun, KB/Pull or disorient is all it takes to avoid their hardest hitting move. And seeing as it channels you have plenty of time to stop it before the full damage. Don't get me wrong I know darkness is great in pvp right now, but nerfing it's damage would be a terrible decision. There is a PvE side of the game too, in which a darkness assassins damage is pretty low. Lower that anymore and darkness sins are going to be losing aggro and hitting way more close enrage timers than they should. People need to get over their mindset of anything better off than them should be brought down to their level instead of their own class/spec getting brought up to par. tank sins in dps gear do too much dps, especially when in comparison to the other tank specs. And a pvp dps nerf would be offset by a pve threat buff if done correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordeguy Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 tank sins in dps gear do too much dps, especially when in comparison to the other tank specs. And a pvp dps nerf would be offset by a pve threat buff if done correctly. The damage is still important in pve for more reasons than threat. It's already on the low end and lowering it would mean a higher chance for lesser geared groups to hit enrage timers because the tank is contributing next to nothing on damage. The HD damage is important as are the energized + recklessness shocks. For bosses, leveling, dailies and yes pvp. Not to mention I see shieldtechs (up to at least jet charge) break 300k damage far more often than darkness assassins. I play both classes myself and its easier to do on a PT tank in pvp. Smart teams will know how to cripple your damage by cutting off HD FLs, if you're letting the assassin cast it then like I said, you deserve the hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 No, I haven't read it. I'm just saying that you need to compare tanks to tanks. For PvE clearly guardians/juggs are best ones, but for pvp it's tricky and assasin/shadow tank got so many special abilities and defensive cds. I mean that's till ok, but that dmg is even with full tank spec too much. My best dmg in wz ever was 301K, protection 240K and to be honest, that's still ok because usually I'm about half of that dmg, because my role is not to kill ppl with full health but protecting and be annyoing with cc and stuff/debuffing. I play this since 14th December and I was first pretty much alone as a tank assasin in WZs. Now this build is much more common. I don't know how to nerf ppl who are using just tank spec but dps armors, or tank armors and dps spec, but I do feel it's not alright. Why should he if you aren't comparing a tank to a tank. Which by the way is what he was alluding to in his response. You are trying to compare some who is most likely a Deceptuon or madness spec that is using the tank stance. Using the tank stance does not make you a tank. Yes it will add some survivability and the ability to guard, but it does not make you a tank. There is also a good chance that he had a pocket healer as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyfy Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 tank sins in dps gear do too much dps, especially when in comparison to the other tank specs. And a pvp dps nerf would be offset by a pve threat buff if done correctly. First, no it doesn't. And secondly, do you honestly think they would actually "do it right" by your own volition? Think about that some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meeth Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 until they give us a real dmg calculator i don't see how the devs can expect constructive criticism on any buff/nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiza Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Darkness does too much damage for a tanking tree -- I just switched to 27/2/12 recently and it is BY FAR superior to deception. Don't get me wrong, like you I think the class was created with deception in mind and I LOVE killing folks quickly in deception, but it is a weak tree by comparison. Force Lightning needs to do +10% damage per stack of HD, not +25%. Shock crit multiplier would be great even at +30% if used with Recklessness, not +50% -- this is not Deception, it's Darkness. Deception +30% armor boost should be a granted not a 2 point talent to give this tree some survivability, while the 2 points should be used on a new talent to make the tree more enjoyable/survivable. I have played Infiltration in beta, Deception on live. I live for this tree but now I've finally made the switch and absolutely love it. I recommend everyone play Darkness! Madness -- why? My main is a sorc, and I don't see any benefits to playing madness sin over sorc. If you want madness, make a sorc and play it right. You're seriously confusing our survivability with dmg output. Darkness doesn't do much damage at all when compared to real dps AC's. We just have staying power, as all tank's should. I do agree with you on your stance about madness, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiza Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Yes it does need to nerf our damage. Compare to other tanks it's really a joke. Or do you think that it's right that a TANK can do 400K dmg, 200K protection? Do you have any idea how much healing is behind a darkness doing 400k dmg and 200k protec? He's being spam healed the entire time. And that's only in a voidstar turtle. Plus, all of that dmg comes in small incremental bits. You really don't know what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaipyr Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Yes it does need to nerf our damage. Compare to other tanks it's really a joke. Or do you think that it's right that a TANK can do 400K dmg, 200K protection? I can pull that easy on my vanguard. I can also pull that pretty easy on my smash spam Jugg. News at 11, tanks are pvp viable in an MMO for once... DPS cries foul and nerf rallies. Later on, water is wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upzie Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I can pull that easy on my vanguard. I can also pull that pretty easy on my smash spam Jugg. News at 11, tanks are pvp viable in an MMO for once... DPS cries foul and nerf rallies. Later on, water is wet. sure thing bob, you do that every game, easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts