Darkness vs. Deception

[johnyangelo]

Oh, oh, I can pull numbers out of my arse too!

 

What about Juggernauts that force sweep crit me for 12k?!

 

Those are DPS juggs with poor 16K hp...

[johnyangelo]

Divided by max 5 targets make 600 and 500 damage per target. Hardly overpowered.

 

Anyways, the main reason to use those AoE's is their debuff effect, not their damage.

 

I would vouch for more duff and less dmg actually.

[AetherMcLoud]

Those are DPS juggs with poor 16K hp...

 

You obviously don't get sarcasm...

[Sovereighn]

Exactly this!

 

Juggs who can cill me with 2 crits doing 15k damage in 3 sec.

 

Operatives which come from stealth crit with 12k in 4 seconds being not able to do anything about it (stunbraker not active) and begin the fight with 3k life.

 

so whats the point regarding we do too much damage in 15sec?

[Darth_Xzygy]

Exactly this!

 

Juggs who can cill me with 2 crits doing 15k damage in 3 sec.

 

Operatives which come from stealth crit with 12k in 4 seconds being not able to do anything about it (stunbraker not active) and begin the fight with 3k life.

 

so whats the point regarding we do too much damage in 15sec?

 

Can we please not make up numbers? Thanks. Especially where operatives are concerned, they don't need people spreading this kind of misinformation. And please don't get all indignant and try to justify, I don't care. Screenshot or it didn't happen. I'm guessing it didn't happen.

 

Darkness does quite a bit of damage, but it is insignificant to being able to blow cooldowns and drop a consistent burst on someone. I will often have discharge and shock hit in the 4k range on geared pvp targets. With voltaic hitting about 2k per, thats 12k I've set up consistently when cooldowns are up. A stun at that point seals the deal against just about anyone.

 

Darkness accumulates damage better because it dies less. However, having played one, shutting them down in a duel is pretty easy. Save stuns for Force Lightning and don't blow your discharge/shock into their shroud. They go down like Steve Irwin in a tank of stingrays.

 

As for people trying to pve dps in tank spec, I'd either remove them from my group or leave rather than promote that level of idiocy. 31/0/10 is a perfectly viable tank build. The rotation isn't even different ffs ><

[Aeneasx]

I just switched from Deception to Darkness a few days ago... and yeah, what the fck. I've had consistent 3v1's, I fear nobody 1v1, and I am overall infinitely better than I was before.

 

This is full BM stalker gear, switched out mods, best relics/best Adrenal/Stims, all datacrons etc. Rank 72

 

In Deception I feel balanced, in Darkness... I feel like a killing machine.

 

No my burst isn't THAT great... but I'm nigh unkillable 1v1, still a decent ball carrier, and EXCELLENT point defender. Small HP pool (16.2k), High AC/High self healing, very good sustained damage... it adds up to a little bit too much.

 

Our damage is too much compared to how much we heal ourselves for. If you stack all of the healing stuff, talent wise, and pot wise... it's just too much.

 

Now do I want a nerf? no... of course not lol.

[xDevious]

We kind of gotten off track. This isnt about nerfing darkness, this is about making deception tree more viable. Deception needs to have a place that is viable. As of right now with the 1.2 changes there is no point in having a deception assassin. Everyone will either be a tank jugg who hits super hard, tank assassin that never dies, or a mara. Deception tree just needs a few twinks to be more viable. Our burst is ok but it takes time to set up which in some cases you do not get the chance to do when being focused. Dunno what is going on with 1.2 pvp changes but classes that were fine are being buffed(like mara, jugg, etc), classes that didnt need a nerf are being nerfed(operatives, sorcs, etc) and classes like deception tree are being made non-existant. Guess if i want to dps time to roll a mara/sent like everyone else!

[Kazirath]

Deception needs force regen up'd or needs the damage lifted from maul ONLY. The cost is so high that you couldnt be pushed into overpowered. Spike CD should be lifted or removed. We are assassins in that spec not tanks.. so dont touch our defensive cooldowns you want to get away and live... get better at the skills you have...

 

just my two cents..

[xDevious]

Deception needs force regen up'd or needs the damage lifted from maul ONLY. The cost is so high that you couldnt be pushed into overpowered. Spike CD should be lifted or removed. We are assassins in that spec not tanks.. so dont touch our defensive cooldowns you want to get away and live... get better at the skills you have...

 

just my two cents..

 

 

Get better at the skills you have? I am pretty proficient at the deception class that is how I am able to say that it needs a buff or change. It is just not viable compared to the tank tree. No one will take a deception assassin over a tank one.

[Thankyjack]

My level 11 powertech in heavy armor, without most of his skills, does twice the damage as my darkness assassin.

 

Tanks need damage to hold aggro. Nerfing their damage output cripples them in pve.

[TheOpf]

Yes it does need to nerf our damage. Compare to other tanks it's really a joke.

 

Or do you think that it's right that a TANK can do 400K dmg, 200K protection?

 

This is a way overblown and rediculous assumption.

 

PLEASE STOP CONFUSING TOTAL DAMAGE AND DPS. Darkness does more damage and more players play it because you can actually survive in it. It has nothing to do with the dps of the class, but rather the fact that you can take a beating and keep on ticking.

 

As a deception assassin, I can drop just about any player 1v1. However 2v1 or 3v1 and I am down in 3 sec flat unless i run away. Deception is fine if played correctly.

 

I have hit 400-500k damage in many a WZ. As long as I don't die and get my kills. The main issue is that deception guys rarely run away like they are supposed too. I don't know how many times I see other deception sins in a WZ and watch them run into a scrum and never Force Cloak out when the fighting gets tough.

 

Darkness hits pretty hard, but it's main benefit is it's utility and survivability. Both Madness and Deception hit way way harder. Most really good assassins play darkness because they can survive with a healer. As a deception assassin if I don't get out when the going get's tough, there is no healer around who can keep me up.

[RefugeASSASSIN]

I find it funny how I can sit there and beat on a healer class for 12-15 GCD's and be lucky if im able to burn him down over half-health. How does that make me overpowered again?

 

Not to mention a well geared trooper will cut me down in no time flat. Add in someone else helping him and its game over. I dont complain about that, I just deal with it and move on. Same way you should if you encounter a Darkness Tankasin who mows you down.

 

Also I dont prefer the Darkness spec because its an Iwin button and easy to play, but rather because I have to switch from Tank to DPS half the time depending on who im raiding with if one of our dedicated tanks arent available.

[Sinrei]

The amount of bs thats flooded this thread since I last checked is amazing.

 

Especially the 200K protection lol You realise if a sin got 200K protection thats not because hes guarding someone, but spamming both his taunts. Single player 15 second taunt - 30% damage reduction for 6 seconds if that target isn't attacking the sin. Aoe taunt, 45 second CD. Same effect as previous taunt.

 

For a Sin to get such a high number for protection that means no one was attacking him. The most I've got on a Voidstar WZ was 125K protection.

 

---

 

Also to clear this up because people in this thread still clearly don't know *** a 'Tankasin' is in PvP.

 

1: WE AREN'T DISCUSSING PVE aspect of Darkness.

2: Assassins are using the DPS and survival components of the tanking tree so they aren't glass cannons anymore. Side effect of this is no burst like Deception or Madness but more sustained damage.

3: Darkness Sins use Stalker set or 2/2 Surv for 10sec Spike CD reduction and 3/3 Stalker for range on Jolt interrupt. We don't actually use tanking gear, we aren't tanks per se.

4: Yes an Assassin can do over 400K damage if its a Voidstar and one of attrition where no one dies. That goes to any class thats left alone or has healbots. Lets all have a knee-jerk reaction to that and nerf their damage.

5: Who said if you choose to be a tank or a tanking tree you can't do damage? You realise that logic is stupid and flawed since its inevitably going to seep into PvE threat generation, which starts up a whole other discussion.

6: Darkness Sin have TWO Aoes. Wither, which hits like a wet noodle but you need it to get Harnessed Darkness stacks and Discharge with Dark Charge on. Highest crit I've had(Full BM 2/2 Surv, 3/3Stalk with DPS mods and 77% surge) with both was around 1.3-1.6K over 3 targets with reckless/expertise buff and trinket popped. You mainly use Wither for the slowing effect...harrass the enemy as much as possible. So johnyangelo quit talking out your ***.

7: Trying to kill a healer as a Darkness Sin is a pain. Especially a Op/Sc or Commando/Merc. Infact if its a skilled player and I dont have atleast two other players backing me up, I go find something else to harrass. So theres one major downside of Darksins.

 

---

 

So please if you seriously don't know the class, just ****. You don't see me running into Sorc or Commando forums spouting "OMG HE DID a 4K heal, nerf that! Coz I cant dps thru it!! Why want a healer FaLL over!? when I hit him!?"

[TheOpf]

The amount of bs thats flooded this thread since I last checked is amazing.

 

Especially the 200K protection lol You realise if a sin got 200K protection thats not because hes guarding someone, but spamming both his taunts. Single player 15 second taunt - 30% damage reduction for 6 seconds if that target isn't attacking the sin. Aoe taunt, 45 second CD. Same effect as previous taunt.

 

For a Sin to get such a high number for protection that means no one was attacking him. The most I've got on a Voidstar WZ was 125K protection.

 

---

 

Also to clear this up because people in this thread still clearly don't know *** a 'Tankasin' is in PvP.

 

1: WE AREN'T DISCUSSING PVE aspect of Darkness.

2: Assassins are using the DPS and survival components of the tanking tree so they aren't glass cannons anymore. Side effect of this is no burst like Deception or Madness but more sustained damage.

3: Darkness Sins use Stalker set or 2/2 Surv for 10sec Spike CD reduction and 3/3 Stalker for range on Jolt interrupt. We don't actually use tanking gear, we aren't tanks per se.

4: Yes an Assassin can do over 400K damage if its a Voidstar and one of attrition where no one dies. That goes to any class thats left alone or has healbots. Lets all have a knee-jerk reaction to that and nerf their damage.

5: Who said if you choose to be a tank or a tanking tree you can't do damage? You realise that logic is stupid and flawed since its inevitably going to seep into PvE threat generation, which starts up a whole other discussion.

6: Darkness Sin have TWO Aoes. Wither, which hits like a wet noodle but you need it to get Harnessed Darkness stacks and Discharge with Dark Charge on. Highest crit I've had(Full BM 2/2 Surv, 3/3Stalk with DPS mods and 77% surge) with both was around 1.3-1.6K over 3 targets with reckless/expertise buff and trinket popped. You mainly use Wither for the slowing effect...harrass the enemy as much as possible. So johnyangelo quit talking out your ***.

7: Trying to kill a healer as a Darkness Sin is a pain. Especially a Op/Sc or Commando/Merc. Infact if its a skilled player and I dont have atleast two other players backing me up, I go find something else to harrass. So theres one major downside of Darksins.

 

---

 

So please if you seriously don't know the class, just ****. You don't see me running into Sorc or Commando forums spouting "OMG HE DID a 4K heal, nerf that! Coz I cant dps thru it!! Why want a healer FaLL over!? when I hit him!?"

 

This times infinity!

[xDevious]

Bump. deception class has become non-viable and needs a change so ppl will take a deception assassin over a tank one

[TheOpf]

Bump. deception class has become non-viable and needs a change so ppl will take a deception assassin over a tank one

 

Bump because you are so full of it, I am not even sure where to begin. I don't play darkness, i play deception. If played correctly it's lethal. Your problem is you want a Marauder with stealth. Deception is hit and run. I would love a small self heal or for a little bit more survivability when targeted, but the spec is not broken. People are just misguided by the 400k!!!! Numbers because a darkness tank is easy to play and can live for a long time.

[xDevious]

Bump because you are so full of it, I am not even sure where to begin. I don't play darkness, i play deception. If played correctly it's lethal. Your problem is you want a Marauder with stealth. Deception is hit and run. I would love a small self heal or for a little bit more survivability when targeted, but the spec is not broken. People are just misguided by the 400k!!!! Numbers because a darkness tank is easy to play and can live for a long time.

 

Im full of it? I am prob one of the better deception players out there so I know what I'm talking about. Looking at rated u would not take a deception assassin over a tank

[TheOpf]

Im full of it? I am prob one of the better deception players out there so I know what I'm talking about. Looking at rated u would not take a deception assassin over a tank

 

I am glad you find yourself to be great. I must say that I do owe you an apology. You were saying people prefer, and I took it to mean you think they are better. I simply want to blast this theory taht they can't survive. It's not about survival it's about escape. Do deception need a bit of survival love? Absolutely, but they are by no means not viable.

 

If you need a tank and you don't have a pt than by all means take a Darkness one. If you value survival in a scrum over everything else than yes you will take one. It's also much easier to find a good Darkness than it is to find a good deception (because of simplistic and ridiculous people who jump to conclusions).

 

I never said Deception was better. I said it was misplayed by a majority of the specs, and that Darkness is preferred because of survivability, utility, and Guard. When it comes to taking a dps or healer completely out of a fight there is no one better than the Deception. The marauder is a possibility, but they are easy to spot. In premades, the biggest problem is the flood of misconceptions and lack of skill players playing an obviously niche spec.

Edited March 26, 2012 by TheOpf

[xDevious]

I am glad you find yourself to be great. I must say that I do owe you an apology. You were saying people prefer, and I took it to mean you think they are better. I simply want to blast this theory taht they can't survive. It's not about survival it's about escape. Do deception need a bit of survival love? Absolutely, but they are by no means not viable.

 

If you need a tank and you don't have a pt than by all means take a Darkness one. If you value survival in a scrum over everything else than yes you will take one. It's also much easier to find a good Darkness than it is to find a good deception (because of simplistic and ridiculous people who jump to conclusions).

 

I never said Deception was better. I said it was misplayed by a majority of the specs, and that Darkness is preferred because of survivability, utility, and Guard. When it comes to taking a dps or healer completely out of a fight there is no one better than the Deception. The marauder is a possibility, but they are easy to spot. In premades, the biggest problem is the flood of misconceptions and lack of skill players playing an obviously niche spec.

 

Yea I agree but to be more effective would be nice if it didnt take so much time to set up for maximum burst. I have gotten to the point where people know me on the server and I get focused down a lot. I would like to be able to get 5 static charges a lot quicker so I can truly be an assassin.

[TheOpf]

Yea I agree but to be more effective would be nice if it didnt take so much time to set up for maximum burst. I have gotten to the point where people know me on the server and I get focused down a lot. I would like to be able to get 5 static charges a lot quicker so I can truly be an assassin.

 

I find that hilariously true. There are so many times, that if I do too many WZ's in a row I find myself hunted.

 

I generally use the Static charge on an opener after a kill or after a Force Cloak reappearance. I try to make my 2nd attack as soon as I can so I don't lose the buffs.

[Astarica]

Deception is not viable compard to Darkness in the sense that normal mode is not viable comapred to God mode.

 

If Darkness doesn't exist, Deception would be a somewhat weak but still playable spec. But for 1000 or so credits you can be much stronger, so of course there's no reason to play as Deception.

[Superjas]

I'm with Devious on this, I very much prefer Deception as that seems to be what the iconic role of the advanced class should be, an assassin. Sad truth is that darkness, when geared a certain way, outweighs what a Deception assassin can bring to the table in most situations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the spec is weak, but i am saying something needs to change to make the spec attractive over darkness for dps players, as it stands, your team benefits more from you if your darkness in your stalker gear, still able to take the beating most tanks do, and maintaining very competitive dps over the whole warzone, not just every few moments till your burst cooldowns are back up.

[TheOpf]

[quote name='Superjas'].Sad truth is that darkness, when geared a certain way, outweighs what a Deception assassin can bring to the table in most situations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the spec is weak, but i am saying something needs to change to make the spec attractive over darkness for dps players, as it stands, [B]your team benefits more from you if your darkness in your stalker gear[/B], still able to take the beating most tanks do, and maintaining very competitive dps over the whole warzone, not just every few moments till your burst cooldowns are back up.[/QUOTE] This is correct, but that doesn't destroy the viability of Deception. It just brings less to the table. This has been my point from the beginning. Darkness brings more utility and is much simpler to play therefore more players play it. This does not kill the viability of deception. Deception is very viable in pvp (though it needs some survival love). It just doesn't bring the utility of the Darkness sin. Plus it brings the reputation that it is horrible brought on by a bunch of players who can't play it.

[Ushela]

Serious ranked teams will not be putting deception sins on their teams, they will be using darkness sins. SO, HOUSTON....WE HAVE A PROBLEM!

[MandraMoody]

Nerfing isn't a solution to anything, bringing the other trees up to par for overall gameplay balance is.

 

The real only difference in what tree to spec into should be class role+playstyle.

 

I agree Decep needs a big boost and should be as viable in pvp but this doesn't have to cost Darkness anything to be done. Shame as it is now, wanted to stay Decep but far far too squishy just to have a glowy yo-yo attack and 5% more dps that I can easily make up for through swap outs in gear.

Edited March 27, 2012 by MandraMoody