WoW vs. SWTOR viability - the key stat is new players

[Blackardin]

No amount of content will keep you and your guild happy. You'll burn through any amount of content they throw at you, and then complain you're bored.

 

Exactly.

 

The greatest mistake that the dev team over at Wow made was to believe they could ramp the game up enough to feed the hard core crowd. Content was still cleared in a matter of weeks.

 

In doing so, they lost both the hard core crowd (for the reasons stated above), and alienated the casual crowd.

 

MMORPGs are not conducive environments for hard core gamers. They are, by their very nature, casual, long term games.

[fineaid]

Ur sampling size is much to small and ur test parameters are anything but accurate. Maybe if you did a running average over the course of 3 weeks and made sure u included all the starting areas in each game you could claim something. God i hope you dont do research in RL.

[Bluerodian]

Exactly.

 

The greatest mistake that the dev team over at Wow made was to believe they could ramp the game up enough to feed the hard core crowd. Content was still cleared in a matter of weeks.

 

In doing so, they lost both the hard core crowd (for the reasons stated above), and alienated the casual crowd.

 

MMORPGs are not conducive environments for hard core gamers. They are, by their very nature, casual, long term games.

 

They just need to ramp the Raid difficulty up to a level of brutality unheard of in MMOs before, even beyond what EQ did.

 

If people complain, just tell them "Well you have content, go do it!"

[noodlehaus]

They just need to ramp the Raid difficulty up to a level of brutality unheard of in MMOs before, even beyond what EQ did.

 

If people complain, just tell them "Well you have content, go do it!"

 

true to your signature. +1000 cookies for you, sir.

[Bluerodian]

true to your signature. +1000 cookies for you, sir.

 

Actually, while it might have come across as sarcastic, I was being quite serious. The general population of MMOs these days are the loudest, softest, pansy-est creatures to walk the earth.

 

In WoW, the best the had for a Death Penalty was durability damage to equipment and maybe a little bit of downtime. I always thought they should use that as a mechanic in a raid. Say one encounter involving an old AD&D staple of Rust Monsters.

 

The encounter would be one boss that hits like a mac truck and six rust monsters that hit like pillows but do 40-50 times the normal amount of durability damage to gear, not to mention they have an obscene amount of health. All creatures are immune to CC and the Rust Monsters would be very fickle about who they attack and would dart from raid member to raid member on a whim.

 

Throw in the usual environmental hazards and obscure tasks to complete and you have something that would be hair-pullingly frustrating to complete.

 

So the encounter would be a DPS race to beat the boss before the entire raid's equipment breaks, making failure very very expensive and would also ensure that it absolutely cannot be farmed regardless of gear level of the raid.

[noodlehaus]

Actually, while it might have come across as sarcastic, I was being quite serious. The general population of MMOs these days are the loudest, softest, pansy-est creatures to walk the earth.

 

In WoW, the best the had for a Death Penalty was durability damage to equipment and maybe a little bit of downtime. I always thought they should use that as a mechanic in a raid. Say one encounter involving an old AD&D staple of Rust Monsters.

 

The encounter would be one boss that hits like a mac truck and six rust monsters that hit like pillows but do 40-50 times the normal amount of durability damage to gear, not to mention they have an obscene amount of health. All creatures are immune to CC and the Rust Monsters would be very fickle about who they attack and would dart from raid member to raid member on a whim.

 

Throw in the usual environmental hazards and obscure tasks to complete and you have something that would be hair-pullingly frustrating to complete.

 

So the encounter would be a DPS race to beat the boss before the entire raid's equipment breaks, making failure very very expensive and would also ensure that it absolutely cannot be farmed regardless of gear level of the raid.

 

ok i'm taking back my cookies.

[JediKlick]

Exactly.

 

The greatest mistake that the dev team over at Wow made was to believe they could ramp the game up enough to feed the hard core crowd. Content was still cleared in a matter of weeks.

 

In doing so, they lost both the hard core crowd (for the reasons stated above), and alienated the casual crowd.

 

MMORPGs are not conducive environments for hard core gamers. They are, by their very nature, casual, long term games.

 

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, or you don't know how to state it correctly.

 

You WoW kids have no idea what MMO's are, because you were playing an already cheap rip off, easy mode copy of the true original MMO's.

 

EQ1 released in 1999.

FFXI release in 2002.

WoW released in 2004, also on the same year and several weeks before it EQ2 was released.

 

 

So to sit there and say that MMO's are not "conducive" for hardcore gamers is a lie.

 

What you should say is every candy *** worthless MMO since then has been based solely around casual gamers. Only WoW has made it to any decent length of time for casual gaming. EQ2 tried to balance the casual and hardcore, and it's finally failing because it could not keep both sides happy.

 

So no, by the very NATURE of the term of MMO games, they are Hardcore, and they were from the start.

 

Only since WoW decided to tap into the market, by appeasing every worthless video game player to scrape the bottom of the barrel, have we had to deal with this crap.

Edited March 26, 2012 by JediKlick

[Sarfux]

If WoW continues to get new-players, it'll turn into a Religion.

 

good for them, they should play catch up in that aspect

 

Star Wars is already a religion and people worship Jediism.

 

I don't see people worshipping the Lich King and going around warcraft being popular... just sayin lol

 

As long as Star Wars is very well know, which it is, and bioware keeps improving the game, which they are, this game will get better and bigger

[noodlehaus]

good for them, they should play catch up in that aspect

 

Star Wars is already a religion and people worship Jediism.

 

I don't see people worshipping the Lich King and going around warcraft being popular... just sayin lol

 

As long as Star Wars is very well know, which it is, and bioware keeps improving the game, which they are, this game will get better and bigger

 

right on dude! now how about some fanboy cookies

[Vlaxitov]

the reason there are few people in starting zones in WoW is because they're mostly alts and they're enjoying the use of the DUNGEON FINDER from their capital cities. they've done the content pre-end game and are going for end-game on a new class as fast as they can.

 

but yeah, i see what you're trying to do.

 

^ this

 

WoW is basically a lobby game now.

 

The way WoW was when I stopped playing, by the time you got to I think lvl 15 is when ragefire chasm became available for queue and you can hit level cap quickly (especially with heirloom items) without ever doing another world quest.

 

Also, did the OP make his assessment during a free trial period? Did he count nar shaada (lvl 20-24) as part of the 1-20 zones? If he is including nar shaada and since balmora (16-20) is also a neutral zone, did he log onto both horde and alliance sides to investigate every starting zone or is he comparing alliance to sith populations. Did he check his WoW server's low level PvP pop? Did he even check his SWTOR server's low level PvP pop? Screenshots are easy, where are they?

 

Sorry I'm just not buying it and even if I agreed with the OP, this conversation is going nowhere fast. "The key stat" isn't new players anymore than it being about how many players a game is hemoraging. Sure you will do ok for a short while not worrying about the hemoraging, but nevermind the 1-20's. If you don't do enough to hold the interest of a game's level capped playerbase, the game will be known for that sooner than later at which point this supposed "key stat" will eventually become gimped to the point of the game being about as relevant as auto assault.

 

So I'll go one step further and say player retention > new players because player retention = new players via word of mouth.

[Vlaxitov]

 

EQ1 released in 1999.

Anarchy Online 2001.

FFXI release in 2002.

WoW released in 2004, also on the same year and several weeks before it EQ2 was released.

 

Fixed that for you.

[Bivaccus]

Fixed that for you.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok_Online

 

2002, and the open beta started before that.

 

Loved that game to death. It is still being played all over the world.

[Devlonir]

So no, by the very NATURE of the term of MMO games, they are Hardcore, and they were from the start..

 

Cool, so Hardcore is Massive and inclusive these days, not small scale and exclusive. Cool! So everyone can be Hardcore!

 

But wait.. doesn't that make Hardcore the new casual?

 

Seriously.. First gen MMO's were hardcore because Devs could think of nothing else to throw at people than stuff that needed either more grinding or more people. None of these MMO's got millions of players, most didn't even get to a million. These were not succesful games, they were playgrounds for kids with too much time that kicked the kids that only came around once every few days out.

 

You are so wrong it is just funny.. MMO's by their very nature are actually casual games NOT hardcore games. To make an MMO succesful, you need more players. To get more players, you need to make the gameplay less exclusive. When you make gameplay less exclusive, you make the gameplay more casual.

 

And what many 'Hardcore kiddies' don't understand is the actual evolving of an MMO gamer. It doesn't go from newb, to casual, to hardcore. It actually goes from newb, to wannabe hardcore. And then it either goes to real hardcore or casual.

The real hardcore players will never be happy with mere content updates, because they burn through it fast. They have the need for more content, but the content gets designed for a learning curve below theirs. So they usually play multiple games and switch from game to game when new content updates come out.

 

True hardcore players don't complain that one game is not 'hardcore enough' for them.. because no game is. That is why they play 2 or more MMOs.

 

And also these players, once they have less time, will become casual players afterwards.. and never fall back to the wannabe hardcore archetype that plagues every game forum of every online game there is.

 

You do not understand MMO's at all.. you just think you do because of your own limited experience. So how about you get back into your little hole and let the big people talk here.. okay?

[Mezla]

More anecdotal evidence:

I have characters on US-Barthilas and US-Frostmourne, 5 and 2 in PVE progression in US, both Oceanic, both on Bloodlust, and both have less players during prime time than the new SWTOR Oceanic PVP server.

[skotish]

There is no research here. It's just one guys personal expereince, backed by nothing more than his personal opinion on who is dying and thriving.

 

Yes and the said guy asked everyone to check there servers to see if there was a pattern did you choose to miss that part of the post

[noodlehaus]

More anecdotal evidence:

I have characters on US-Barthilas and US-Frostmourne, 5 and 2 in PVE progression in US, both Oceanic, both on Bloodlust, and both have less players during prime time than the new SWTOR Oceanic PVP server.

 

yeah, yet if you want to do a heroic or raid or BGs, you can do it with minimal wait time...

 

oh wait, sorry, that's LFR/LFG/XSBG. that's unfair, WoW didn't have that in 2004.

[Mezla]

yeah, yet if you want to do a heroic or raid or BGs, you can do it with minimal wait time...

 

oh wait, sorry, that's LFR/LFG/XSBG. that's unfair, WoW didn't have that in 2004.

 

That's not the point of this topic. Yes BW dropped the ball hard by not including those straight away, but they still have a chance and considering that SWTOR is doing very well, they might even have time to implement it.

[Vlaxitov]

The real hardcore players will never be happy with mere content updates, because they burn through it fast. They have the need for more content, but the content gets designed for a learning curve below theirs. So they usually play multiple games and switch from game to game when new content updates come out.

 

While I do agree with the learning curve part of what you said, I don't think all these supposed "hardcore kiddies" are going the quantity over quality route. I think many of them try a game and if it isn't satisfying then they either quit that game for another game exclusively or else find something else to do.

[noodlehaus]

That's not the point of this topic. Yes BW dropped the ball hard by not including those straight away, but they still have a chance and considering that SWTOR is doing very well, they might even have time to implement it.

 

sorry, it wasn't clear. my point is (regarding the post I previously quoted) that no matter what the population is on your server, if you have cross-realm tools for grouping up, the population problem is NOT a problem.

[snowmon]

Really? ok, it's Saturday, my Ops are done for the week...I'm in full Rakata, nothing to craft (which I wouldn't be doing anyway) no mats to gather (companions do that to), can pvp (if you can stomach it after valor 60), FP's have always been pointless (normal Ops are easier and better)..no point in doing dailies anymore, so many credits all ready and don't need tokens, and I'm not an alt guy....So what exactly is "too much to do?"

 

If you say I'm too hardcore than you're right and that's why I cancelled unless 4 whole new bosses in 1.2 keep me and my guild occupied for longer than a month.

 

try completing the codex? thats what i have been doing, 404 / 662 atm

[Ionna]

sorry, it wasn't clear. my point is (regarding the post I previously quoted) that no matter what the population is on your server, if you have cross-realm tools for grouping up, the population problem is NOT a problem.

 

 

 

ding ding ding exactly... all the ppl whining about server transfers/merges would be equally served by a cross server grp system...making the small population problem melt away

[Vlaxitov]

sorry, it wasn't clear. my point is (regarding the post I previously quoted) that no matter what the population is on your server, if you have cross-realm tools for grouping up, the population problem is NOT a problem.

 

ding ding ding exactly... all the ppl whining about server transfers/merges would be equally served by a cross server grp system...making the small population problem melt away

 

Gong not at all...

 

Rift retained accounts over free transfers. Rift lost accounts over x-realm and the dumbing down of the content associated with it to ensure that it worked.

 

Yeah people could queue up then, but all the problems that make grouping an issue would still prevail. This game has problems way deeper than a need for x-realm dungeons to keep it viable. You might at best get a month of quelled complaints out of X-LFD.