Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Yeh, I'm with Aximand. Hippy farmer mercenaries =/= Mandalorians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Hippy farmer mercenaries =/= Mandalorians. Rofl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'll take a shot at explaining why I support Traviss books: I love the Star Wars movies. I love the Jedi. As a small child I always imagined being like the Jedi, fighting like the Jedi. Eventually I started reading the books. I read Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy, and loved it. Then Hand of Thrawn, and loved it. But time went on. The Yuuzhan Vong came. And I simply got to the point where the with every book, they stacked a new power onto the Jedi. They always have to top themselves, and they do it by giving the jedi more power. And more power. Et Cetera. So I became a bit disillusioned after finishing the Vong series. And then I read the Republic Commando books. It was quite incredible for me, a guy who had played through Republic Commando on the Xbox and loved, and who had always wondered what clones were really like since episode 2. But more than that, it was a story about people who weren't Jedi. Ordinary guys, who just happened to be clones, trying to make their way through the universe and not die. They were also finally a group of people who took the Jedi down to size. Think about it. When was the last time a KNOWN Jedi, one not introduced in a book and killed off in the same one, was killed by someone other than the Sith? In all this wide galaxy, there was no one at all who was able to even hurt these people? In my opinion, Traviss did want to take the jedi down to size a little bit. And that's not why I like the books. I like the books because they tell a completely new story. Not the tired old Jedi-Sith dynamic, but a completely new story about a completely new group of people, who could be equal with the Jedi. This probably came across as complete idiocy, didn't it? Sorry I'm inarticulate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Rofl. Actually, didn't she make them communists as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'll take a shot at explaining why I support Traviss books: I love the Star Wars movies. I love the Jedi. As a small child I always imagined being like the Jedi, fighting like the Jedi. Eventually I started reading the books. I read Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy, and loved it. Then Hand of Thrawn, and loved it. But time went on. The Yuuzhan Vong came. And I simply got to the point where the with every book, they stacked a new power onto the Jedi. They always have to top themselves, and they do it by giving the jedi more power. And more power. Et Cetera. So I became a bit disillusioned after finishing the Vong series. And then I read the Republic Commando books. It was quite incredible for me, a guy who had played through Republic Commando on the Xbox and loved, and who had always wondered what clones were really like since episode 2. But more than that, it was a story about people who weren't Jedi. Ordinary guys, who just happened to be clones, trying to make their way through the universe and not die. They were also finally a group of people who took the Jedi down to size. Think about it. When was the last time a KNOWN Jedi, one not introduced in a book and killed off in the same one, was killed by someone other than the Sith? In all this wide galaxy, there was no one at all who was able to even hurt these people? In my opinion, Traviss did want to take the jedi down to size a little bit. And that's not why I like the books. I like the books because they tell a completely new story. Not the tired old Jedi-Sith dynamic, but a completely new story about a completely new group of people, who could be equal with the Jedi. This probably came across as complete idiocy, didn't it? Sorry I'm inarticulate. Its not that others being able to beat jedi is a bad thing. But Traviss went about it all the wrong ways, to the point where it was just stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) I'll take a shot at explaining why I support Traviss books: I love the Star Wars movies. I love the Jedi. As a small child I always imagined being like the Jedi, fighting like the Jedi. Eventually I started reading the books. I read Zahn's Heir to the Empire trilogy, and loved it. Then Hand of Thrawn, and loved it. But time went on. The Yuuzhan Vong came. And I simply got to the point where the with every book, they stacked a new power onto the Jedi. They always have to top themselves, and they do it by giving the jedi more power. And more power. Et Cetera. So I became a bit disillusioned after finishing the Vong series. And then I read the Republic Commando books. It was quite incredible for me, a guy who had played through Republic Commando on the Xbox and loved, and who had always wondered what clones were really like since episode 2. But more than that, it was a story about people who weren't Jedi. Ordinary guys, who just happened to be clones, trying to make their way through the universe and not die. They were also finally a group of people who took the Jedi down to size. Think about it. When was the last time a KNOWN Jedi, one not introduced in a book and killed off in the same one, was killed by someone other than the Sith? In all this wide galaxy, there was no one at all who was able to even hurt these people? In my opinion, Traviss did want to take the jedi down to size a little bit. And that's not why I like the books. I like the books because they tell a completely new story. Not the tired old Jedi-Sith dynamic, but a completely new story about a completely new group of people, who could be equal with the Jedi. This probably came across as complete idiocy, didn't it? Sorry I'm inarticulate. The Mandalorians could already compete with the Jedi before Traviss' OP fandalorians group, just read the Mandalorian Wars, they weren't OP in that and they put up an extremely good fight, only reason they lost was because Revan used ambush after ambush, trap after trap and eventually the tactics the Mandalorians were using, but with Jedi to implement them. Edited March 25, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Its not that others being able to beat jedi is a bad thing. But Traviss went about it all the wrong ways, to the point where it was just stupid. "All the wrong ways": Please elaborate. Eventually, this just comes down to opinion. I like the Mandalorians Traviss-Style. You don't. There's really no logical argument you can make that will affect my opinion, although it might be interesting to hear what you come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 The Mandalorians could already compete with the Jedi before Traviss' OP fandalorians group, just read the Mandalorian Wars, they weren't OP in that and they put up an extremely good fight, only reason they lost was because Revan used ambush after ambush, trap after trap and eventually the tactics the Mandalorians were using, but with Jedi to implement them. Your argument boils down to this: The Mandalorians were good. But it's illegal for them to be better than Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) "All the wrong ways": Please elaborate. Eventually, this just comes down to opinion. I like the Mandalorians Traviss-Style. You don't. There's really no logical argument you can make that will affect my opinion, although it might be interesting to hear what you come up with. Being the best at everything to where they have no equal....that pretty much sums it up. You take a god, and they still will be better. Edited March 25, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Being the best at everything Evidence please? This is one of the things that bugs me most about all the people who hate Traviss' work. You say all the time "She made them way too powerful, they were able to take down Jedi far too easily!" No. She never established that. They faced Jedi often. They had techniques for killing them. But at no point do they get into a heavy battle with a full-out Jedi Master. Yes, they often say they can take down Jedi. But of course they would. When does any group of Traviss Mandalorians go up against real Jedi and take them down easily? And when they go up against Jedi in the Republic Commando series (which is oh, let me see, once total?) Skirata fights padawans. The best the Mandalorians have to offer, against almost the worst of the Jedi. How do you think that would go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Your argument boils down to this: The Mandalorians were good. But it's illegal for them to be better than Jedi. When did I say that? I didn't. Don't put words in my mouth, I can argue circles around you about Mandalorians vs Jedi, I was reading Mandalorian lore before even KotOR came out. Simply put, Mandalorians can beat Jedi all they want, I don't care, they just don't need the super plot armor Karen traviss created for them to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Your argument boils down to this: The Mandalorians were good. But it's illegal for them to be better than Jedi. No it doesn't, it boils down to "It was awesome when Mandalorians were elite mercenaries that, when they overcame a Jedi it was an accomplishment to be praised. But once they got to the point where they were casually kicking Jaina "Sword of the Jedi" Solo's *** without breaking a sweat it was freaking ridiculous and they needed a retcon back to awesomesauce-land". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 No it doesn't, it boils down to "It was awesome when Mandalorians were elite mercenaries that, when they overcame a Jedi it was an accomplishment to be praised. But once they got to the point where they were casually kicking Jaina "Sword of the Jedi" Solo's *** without breaking a sweat it was freaking ridiculous and they needed a retcon back to awesomesauce-land". So they beat Jaina using a technique that she's never fought against before. She adapted quickly and learned from her defeat. Apparently it's not allowed for Jedi to *gasp* learn from someone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 So they beat Jaina using a technique that she's never fought against before. She adapted quickly and learned from her defeat. Apparently it's not allowed for Jedi to *gasp* learn from someone! Like putting words in people's mouths don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Like putting words in people's mouths don't you? Then what do you really think, if not that? I'll adjust my comments accordingly if you give me something solid beyond "They're too OP". Edited March 25, 2012 by Mirdthestrill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 So they beat Jaina using a technique that she's never fought against before. She adapted quickly and learned from her defeat. Apparently it's not allowed for Jedi to *gasp* learn from someone! Except she had fought it before. You know, the Yuuzhan Vong? The dudes that couldn't be sensed in the Force and had Lightsaber resistant armor? Those ones? The ones that Jaina was killing with impunity by the end of the Yuuzhan Vong war? The ones that worshiped Jaina as a Goddess of war? Yea, those Vong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Except she had fought it before. You know, the Yuuzhan Vong? The dudes that couldn't be sensed in the Force and had Lightsaber resistant armor? Those ones? The ones that Jaina was killing with impunity by the end of the Yuuzhan Vong war? The ones that worshiped Jaina as a Goddess of war? Yea, those Vong. Not the same power, not by a long shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) Then what do you really think, if not that? I'll adjust my comments accordingly if you give me something solid beyond "They're too OP". She literally made Jedi kyptonite for the mandalorians to use, as a matter of fact the OP says everything, invulnerable to lightsaber armor, etc, etc... All of it screamed, the Mandalorians are so epic leet awesome that they have epic leet armor with epic leet skillz and pwnz Jedi. That was Karen Traviss' use of Mandalorians, apparently, Jaina could learn more about defeating a Sith Lord from a Mandalorian than she ever could from the most powerful Jedi of all time. She just had to have made Jaina inferior to the Mandalorians so she could say, this is the most promising Jedi, she knows nothing in comparison to the Mandalorians. You can argue that this wasn't what she tried to do, but when she admits to it herself, and screams at her critics (literally) that she is right, Jedi suck and Mandalorians are the real heroes, your argument carries little weight. Edited March 26, 2012 by Rayla_Felana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Not the same power, not by a long shot. Oh? Well how was a Mandalorian not being able to be sensed in the Force different than a Yuuzhan Vong not being able to be sensed in the Force? Seems pretty much the exact same damn thing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 She literally made Jedi kyptonite for the mandalorians to use, as a matter of fact the OP says everything, invulnerable to lightsaber armor, etc, etc... Not Jedi Kryptonite. Kryptonite implies that it weakens those it affects. And besides, it's not like a lightsaber-resisting material is new. Cortosis...Phrik...Orbalisks... All of it screamed, the Mandalorians are so epic leet awesome that they have epic leet armor with epic leet skillz and pwnz Jedi. Disagree. But it's an opinion thing, not a fact thing, so I'll move on. That was Karen Traviss' use of Mandalorians, apparently, Jaina could learn more about defeating a Sith Lord from a Mandalorian than she ever could from the most powerful Jedi of all time. However much you hate Traviss Mandos, you must admit that even Pre-Traviss Mandos could teach Jaina some stuff about killing people. She just had to have made Jaina inferior to the Mandalorians so she could say, this is the most promising Jedi, she knows nothing in comparison to the Mandalorians. So Jaina is pretty much your only example and the only pillar of your argument? And you still haven't addressed my previous point of Traviss Mandos having almost never fought fully qualified Jedi. You can argue that this wasn't what she tried to do, but when she admits to it herself, and screams at her critics (literally) that she is right, Jedi suck and Mandalorians are the real heroes, your argument carries little weight. I'll at least partially give you this one. Traviss, from her own comments, obviously doesn't like Jedi and would like to take them down as much as she can. But, honestly? I don't really care. I like fiction for the reason I like it, and not the reason the author wants me to like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 (edited) TBQH it went a little far but GD'it im sick to death of reading about a bunch of religious zelots that got lucky in a gentetic lottery destroying an entire galaxy for tens of thousands of years. A fresh perspective was needed, it was given, spawned a new culture of fans and was in an instant destroyed. Like it or not it set a precedence that will keep anyone from writing anything but Jedi / Sith fan fiction in the EU. Mandalorians were a shade of grey in the white/black SW universe and the only group not reliant on the force to even matter in the grand scheme of things, now thier second rate inept barbarians and will never be anything more. Edited March 26, 2012 by TKMaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Not Jedi Kryptonite. Kryptonite implies that it weakens those it affects. And besides, it's not like a lightsaber-resisting material is new. Cortosis...Phrik...Orbalisks... To me it's the same difference, take away the lightsaber's effectiveness and have an ability to not be sensed in the force by Force Users and you have basically smacked down all the things that make Jedi, Jedi. However much you hate Traviss Mandos, you must admit that even Pre-Traviss Mandos could teach Jaina some stuff about killing people. I don't hate them, I think they were unnecessarily over-hyped and I agree, just not where the Sith are concerned, knowing how to kill a Jedi=/=Knowing how to kill a Sith Lord. So Jaina is pretty much your only example and the only pillar of your argument? And you still haven't addressed my previous point of Traviss Mandos having almost never fought fully qualified Jedi. Nope it isn't, but that is not my point, Karen Traviss simply built the Mandalorians up to a pedestal, she tried to make them out to be the ultimate warriors of the Star Wars lore, at the expense of the Jedi, whom she despised, she let her bias seep into her workings and it was sickeningly force-fed to the reader, she over-hyped them into the sky, that is the problem I in particular have, mainly because none of it was needed, the Mandalorians were already awesome. I'll at least partially give you this one. Traviss, from her own comments, obviously doesn't like Jedi and would like to take them down as much as she can. But, honestly? I don't really care. I like fiction for the reason I like it, and not the reason the author wants me to like it. I think the most telling tale is that she rage quit Star Wars, then raged even more when Lucas dared to touch her baby, if I remember correctly she purposefully undermined Troy Denning's works to make her favourite clan of warriors seem even better. She was clearly an infuriating woman with no sense of responsibility regarding the canon workings, she intentionally destroyed other people's workings because she felt like it, see the butchery of Jaina Solo, and the literal butchery of Mara-Jade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 So they beat Jaina using a technique that she's never fought against before. She adapted quickly and learned from her defeat. Apparently it's not allowed for Jedi to *gasp* learn from someone! Not quite. See the Mandalorian tactic was explained as a way for them to remove themselves from being able to be sensed in the Force. This meant that their big trump card (that had never been seen before) was that they could make it so that Jedi couldn't anticipate them or directly sense them. Here is why that particular part was a problem. Shortly before this event Jaina Solo fought heavily in the Yuuzong Vong war. She helped develop the combat styles and maneuvers that would eventually defeat them. Specifically she figured out how to beat them in one on one melee combat. The reason they had to develop new ways to fight them was because the Vong couldn't be sensed in the Force. Literally the Mando showed her something that she had been fighting for over a decade and in fact had personally developed a method to combat. How that scene should have ended was her smacking that Mando around, knocking the wind out of him, and then demanding that he show her something she didn't already know how to counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 Evidence please? This is one of the things that bugs me most about all the people who hate Traviss' work. You say all the time "She made them way too powerful, they were able to take down Jedi far too easily!" No. She never established that. They faced Jedi often. They had techniques for killing them. But at no point do they get into a heavy battle with a full-out Jedi Master. Yes, they often say they can take down Jedi. But of course they would. When does any group of Traviss Mandalorians go up against real Jedi and take them down easily? And when they go up against Jedi in the Republic Commando series (which is oh, let me see, once total?) Skirata fights padawans. The best the Mandalorians have to offer, against almost the worst of the Jedi. How do you think that would go? I can provide tons of evidence. 1. She had the Mandalorians establish that they could have killed Jacen Solo at an earlier point in LotF but didn't out of their choice. 2. She had them back talk and belittle the Jedi in every possible way. 3. She had them smack Jaina, the Sword of the Jedi around and she had the audacity to portray Jaina as a pampered princess. 4. She had them debut fighters that were far better than the best tech available to the Republic, as Jaina would know because she was a Jedi Ace Combat Pilot who flew the top of the line military fighter in the Galaxy the Stealth X. 5. She, Karen Traviss, threw a fit when Troy Denning used her Mandalorians in his portion of LotF because he had them get defeated, rather easily, by Jacen Solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mefit Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 (edited) I can provide tons of evidence. 1. She had the Mandalorians establish that they could have killed Jacen Solo at an earlier point in LotF but didn't out of their choice. Doesn't mean they could and really its just characters and their own opinions. 2. She had them back talk and belittle the Jedi in every possible way. What is this ? Is Star Wars a Carebear like universe where no one dies and characters are always polite , good always beat evil ? Vadar killed alot of Jedi makes me think otherwise ! 3. She had them smack Jaina, the Sword of the Jedi around and she had the audacity to portray Jaina as a pampered princess. This is just personal opinion . Jaina has to have defeats to grow as a character. 4. She had them debut fighters that were far better than the best tech available to the Republic, as Jaina would know because she was a Jedi Ace Combat Pilot who flew the top of the line military fighter in the Galaxy the Stealth X. Oh I forgot the Republic is the most advanced out there , thankyou for letting me know this. 5. She, Karen Traviss, threw a fit when Troy Denning used her Mandalorians in his portion of LotF because he had them get defeated, rather easily, by Jacen Solo. Karen Traviss is a Author who defied the trolls of StarWars and wrote Novels that those extreme fans could never understand , not because of her love for Mandalorians but just to have something StarWars outside the realm of Jedi and Sith . Personally , I have not read much from her but it is disturbing these threads and the creators will do to discredit someone who wrote a book about None Real Characters . Maybe instead of Attacking her you should go write your own StarWars books and try your hand at it . Hopefully you will not have to deal with the sickening attacks that she had to go through by people who take Star Wars a little to seriously and extreme . I like that the Mandalorians without force abilities can take on the Jedi with raw skill . There is trend going on in StarWars that is making it kinda seem bland when you only have heros with Force Powers and villians with Darkside powers . I like when StarWars is taken from just inside the box and put outside it with fresh new ideas and new perspectives . Edited March 26, 2012 by mefit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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