When dps Operatives/Scoundrels will be playeble?

[ALEXANDRU-]

Reroll Snipers,and then you will crawl back to your Operatives.

[Ozzone]

All I can say is that ops/scoundrels are some of the whiniest *****es I have ever seen in a MMO.

 

What other class has been nerfed as much?

 

Most of us took the first nerf in stride. We weren't happy, but it was warranted. Even my friends were positive that our class was OP.

 

The second nerf wasn't really warranted but BW listened to the bad players that don't know how to counter. Simply go back and look at all the misinformation from the nerf callers. Numerous operatives/scoundrels have even told, step-by-step, other classes how to counter us yet the whining still continued and we got nerfed again.

 

1.2 changes are uncalled for and ops/scoundrels have a valid reason to complain.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ozzone

[rgizzie]

Thing is that a well played Operative/Scoundrel NOW (not talking after 1.2) can completely shut down most classes beside tanks even those if they are bads or you outgear your enemy.

 

You have alot of crowd control abilities which can be used as gap closers... IF you really want to get another gap-closer like sprint and or shadowstep you need to give up something in exchange.

 

Problem right now is that the tank specced shadows / sins are close to OP that's why people forget alot about this fact... a Shadow can't heal and a Shadow is a clothy .... you have medium armor and can heal yourselves...

 

Imagine the following szenario when Shadows "could" heal:

Node defending Shadow, keeps fighting to the bitter end, sprints / LoS heals back up, engages again. That'd be just crazy stupid OP

 

Shadow has light armor. FYI

[Celebrus]

What other class has been nerfed as much?

 

None of them are/were as blatantly imbalanced.

 

As for the rest of your post, whether you like it or not, this is the route they have chosen to go with the class.

 

Either the nerfs ARE warranted, or BW is wrong, and further testing and data will lead to the class being retuned in a positive direction.

 

In any event, coming here to whine and complain about changes that haven't gone live and most of you probably haven't logged into the PTR to experience first hand simply proves my point.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Celebrus

[Campaigner]

Just keep nerfing the operatives,

 

Bioware's pie chart of balance has ruled it so.

 

Just like Illum they know what they're doing,

 

*Gag* but I think these buffs to rage jugg are going to make me blow.

[Celebrus]

Can anyone with a level 50 operative/scoundrel on the PTR come in here and confirm how game breaking these changes are? Or are we currently just working under the assumptions that a few angry forum-ops have made?

[JediDuckling]

This is more 'game expirience' thread than 'overpowered/underpowered'.

 

I have no problems with damage output, so i dont care about damage nerfs, or 'rebalance', call it whatever you want. Damage is fine IMO.

 

I have problem with 'in combat' mobilty and utility. And mostly because this class dont have both.

 

When your Cloacking Screen on CD there is no way you can get back on your target or quickly switch when you need to burst/disable specific target. Im not talking abut 1v1, im talking about cordinated team fights where are no udergeared people and where healers are under guard and where positioning is happening.

 

In pugs im ok. Even in Huttball. But IMO there is no place for a curret operative/scoundrell in 8 ppl team, simply because i dont see how this class can execute tactic moves when its in combat. Especially compearing with other applicants for dps spot.

 

'Sprint' and any variation of 'shadowstep' that what we need.

 

So my question is - is this ever going to happen? Or Operatives and Scoundrels at the moment are 'working as intended'?(I dont know why im so naive to hope to get answer from BW employees, but anyway, ill try).

 

they will be playable when you learn to play one

[Maxkardinal]

All I can say is that ops/scoundrels are some of the whiniest *****es I have ever seen in a MMO.

 

They take the cake over druids in WoW, without a doubt.

 

Do you know how snipers beat ops/scoudrels? Well, unless they are at the top of the hutt ball arena and can simply knock you to the bottom, they don't.

 

Sniper/GS is one of a few ACs that ops/scoundrel are COMPLETELY CLASS CARRIED to victory over. If you can't beat a sniper/gs 99% of the time as a scoundrel/op, you're terrible, basically anything in medium armor or lighter is fair game for you other than TANK sins/shadows specifically.

 

You can completely lock down a player of certain classes for an entire game, wrecking them routinely everytime they step out of the respawn room, if that isn't enough for you AS A STEALTH DPS CLASS, then you're pretty much *****y and asking for too much.

 

TL;DR Ops/Scoundrels will ***** and moan until they are 5k critting people 3 times in a stunlock like they were at release, there is no pleasing these people.

 

Say stuff like that if you someday want a brain transplantation. Any doctor wont have any doubts that you have troubles with your curret.

[Ozzone]

In any event, coming here to whine and complain about changes that haven't gone live and most of you probably haven't logged into the PTR to experience first hand simply proves my point.

 

Changes that haven't gone live? By all means show me where they changed the patch notes when it went live.

 

I am reading the PTS forum and the overall consensus is that it's an overall nerf to the concealment class and a major nerf to the lethality class (which has the PvE players in an absolute uproar).

 

But by all means please continue to label my comments as whining and make sure you put in the 'waah, waah, waah" where you feel is appropriate.

 

Oh, one last thing, I failed to mention the massive nerf to Acid Blade especially with the increase in CD for backstab. Forgot about that one.

[Howbadisbad]

Reroll Snipers,and then you will crawl back to your Operatives.

 

I kite Operatives all day. Ok?

[Lyshar]

So operatives should give up our knockback or our speed or our pull or our RANGED stun. Ohh thats right we don't have any of that.

 

Actually we have 1 ranged stun, which can only be used from stealth on a character that is out of combat (and out of stealth I think, because I can never use it on a stealthed one, and they can stun me none the less).

 

Can almost never use it because of it's restrictions, but I got to use it today, then the enemy I hit went instantly to 99% resolve AND seemed to resist it. Other classes can stun me two or three times in a row and still leave me at about 70% resolve, while each of our stuns grants at least that 70% each.

 

No idea how I scared off that sentinel into fleeing away, he didn't even try to fight back.

 

At least I'm a healer, the least useless Operative. Can still contribute to most matches and have a good time.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Lyshar

[VertisReaper]

What other class has been nerfed as much?

 

Most of us took the first nerf in stride. We weren't happy, but it was warranted. Even my friends were positive that our class was OP.

 

The second nerf wasn't really warranted but BW listened to the bad players that don't know how to counter. Simply go back and look at all the misinformation from the nerf callers. Numerous operatives/scoundrels have even told, step-by-step, other classes how to counter us yet the whining still continued and we got nerfed again.

 

1.2 changes are uncalled for and ops/scoundrels have a valid reason to complain.

 

no nerfs were taken in stride, the first nerf was met with HARSH resistance from ops/scoundrels even though they were blatantly overpowered. They even cried about SURGE nerfs as if it didn't affect every class in the game. Then they while about this current change when double opener is a one trick pony move that needs to be fixed. All they do is cry. They even cried about "poor sustained", till bioware slapped them in the face and told them that their sustained dps is within 5% of MARAUDERS ( A PURE DPS CLASS )

 

You guys can have more utility when they take away your heals and/or the highest burst damage in the game hands down.

Edited March 26, 2012 by VertisReaper

[Howbadisbad]

Actually we have 1 ranged stun, which can only be used from stealth on a character that is out of combat (and out of stealth I think, because I can never use it on a stealthed one, and they can stun me none the less).

 

Can almost never use it because of it's restrictions, but I got to use it today, then the enemy I hit went instantly to 99% resolve AND seemed to resist it. Other classes can stun me two or three times in a row and still leave me at about 70% resolve, while each of our stuns grants at least that 70% each.

 

No idea how I scared off that sentinel into fleeing away, he didn't even try to fight back.

 

At least I'm a healer, the least useless Operative. Can still contribute to most matches and have a good time.

 

10m is not 'ranged'.

 

Most classes have some way to Operate from 20m or more away, Operatives have none.

[beetz]

Thing is that a well played Operative/Scoundrel NOW (not talking after 1.2) can completely shut down most classes beside tanks even those if they are bads or you outgear your enemy.

 

You have alot of crowd control abilities which can be used as gap closers... IF you really want to get another gap-closer like sprint and or shadowstep you need to give up something in exchange.

 

Problem right now is that the tank specced shadows / sins are close to OP that's why people forget alot about this fact... a Shadow can't heal and a Shadow is a clothy .... you have medium armor and can heal yourselves...

 

Imagine the following szenario when Shadows "could" heal:

Node defending Shadow, keeps fighting to the bitter end, sprints / LoS heals back up, engages again. That'd be just crazy stupid OP

 

 

 

Why do people keep saying this? I don't think that anyone who makes a comment like this has played the class. Scoundrel and Operative dps will have no place in rated warzones as it stands.

 

I re-rolled a Guardian and just recently hit 50. Aside from being more useful in objective based pvp, I now know that I have a guaranteed spot on our guilds rated team.

Edited March 26, 2012 by beetz

[Trauglodyte]

The tools for a useful Op in an 8 man group are there. They're just being stunted by current implementation.

 

But do you know what really make me laugh when I think of the class?

 

- I have three grenades that I can throw but for some reason, I can only throw one for 10m.

 

- I have two darts that I can shoot but for some reason, one of them requires me to be stealthed and my target can't be attacking anyone.

 

- I have an innate ability when I use Overload Shot to do more damage but, for some reason, it fires 20m shorter than my normal attack and it does less damage than my grenade despite having two talents to pump it up. And all at a cost of 3 less energy (would have to fire it 4 more times to get close to using the grenade once which would cost 65 more energy and six more seconds).

 

- I have three heals that I can use with one specifically centered around my Tactical Advantage and, while it costs 5 less energy than my base heal and one second last time, I have to use Shiv in order to get the ability to do it (another 15 energy and 1.5 seconds worth of time to get) and it heals about 10-15% less than my base heal. Yep, I have to do more to use it and get less out of it when I use it.

 

- My primary attack from stealth requires me to be behind my target. So, why is it that I have to be surprising and well positioned?

 

Yes, I know about the balance thing with range and I still find it to be completely stupid. Especially as it was done for the sense of flavor. But this all just kind of cracks me up. Definitely comforts me when I'm having issues in PvP.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Trauglodyte

[Celebrus]

I still have yet to see anyone that has even CLAIMED to play a 50 op/scoundrel on the PTR comment on how game breaking these changes are.

 

Oh, by the way, posting videos of Powerr and then claiming it to be indicative of what the "average" shadow can do doesn't support your argument much.

 

That could very well be the best PvPer on this game, regardless of class, and that was two global cooldowns, still insane, but still not *one*.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Celebrus

[hulkweazel]

no nerfs were taken in stride, the first nerf was met with HARSH resistance from ops/scoundrels even though they were blatantly overpowered. They even cried about SURGE nerfs as if it didn't affect every class in the game. Then they while about this current change when double opener is a one trick pony move that needs to be fixed. All they do is cry. They even cried about "poor sustained", till bioware slapped them in the face and told them that their sustained dps is within 5% of MARAUDERS ( A PURE DPS CLASS )

 

You guys can have more utility when they take away your heals and/or the highest burst damage in the game hands down.

This makes no sense. Assassins can tank OR DPS. Powertechs can tank OR DPS. Sorcs can heal OR DPS. All of them have plenty of utility.

 

And do you not realize that a nerf to surge nerfs burst DPS more than sustained DPS? Meaning, it hurts classes that rely more on burst damage? Which is... get this! An Operative! what a revelation!

 

More than that, the question that was asked to GZ was why take an Operative over another class when other classes have more utility. Why GZ responds, they are within 5% DPS? What? In case you missed it, since you seem a little slow, GZ completely avoided the issue about Op utility.

 

Seriously, get your facts straight before posting crap like this.

[JustTray]

Go play Deception Assassin then come tell me about how weak Operative DPS is. It's INFINITELY better than assassin's equivilent spec.

 

Sin's don't even have a way to keep someone immobile. You have one long cd stun and an ability where you can't hit the opponent.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Meluna
rude

[Hatham]

I have only the tiniest violin for operative criers.

 

Go play Deception Assassin then come tell me about how weak Operative DPS is. It's INFINITELY better than assassin's equivilent spec.

 

Sin's don't even have a way to keep someone immobile. You have one long cd stun and an ability where you can't hit the opponent.

 

GG, learn to play. I hope you quit from the nerfs.

 

I have both and you're dead wrong. Deception damage is excellent, and you don't rely on a stealth opener nearly as much as an operative. Ops do a bit more burst from stealth, but assassins catch up and exceed the operative very quickly. Your long CD stun is also 30m range, force shroud is hands down better than evasion, and you've got the awesome ability force speed to keep on a target. Add the knockback in there, and it should be abundantly clear why I play my assassin 90% of the time and my operative maybe 10%. Deception spec is currently worse than darkness, which is why people aren't complaining about it nearly as much.

[Coldin]

no nerfs were taken in stride, the first nerf was met with HARSH resistance from ops/scoundrels even though they were blatantly overpowered. They even cried about SURGE nerfs as if it didn't affect every class in the game. Then they while about this current change when double opener is a one trick pony move that needs to be fixed. All they do is cry. They even cried about "poor sustained", till bioware slapped them in the face and told them that their sustained dps is within 5% of MARAUDERS ( A PURE DPS CLASS )

 

You guys can have more utility when they take away your heals and/or the highest burst damage in the game hands down.

 

Yep, we did make a lot of fuss over the first nerfs. Not because they were nerfing shoot first, but because they were nerfing out armor penetration, which greatly hurt out PVE DPS.

 

Also, Georg said all DPS specs should have equal DPS. Even being 5% off is quite a lot when enrage timers frequently happen at 2-5% health.

 

 

Edit: Also, Assassins get a 30m stun opposed to the Operatives 4m stun, and get a knockback instead of a daze. Not to mention their sprint, which Operatives get no equivalent.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Coldin

[Hatham]

Yep, we did make a lot of fuss over the first nerfs. Not because they were nerfing shoot first, but because they were nerfing out armor penetration, which greatly hurt out PVE DPS.

 

Also, Georg said all DPS specs should have equal DPS. Even being 5% off is quite a lot when enrage timers frequently happen at 2-5% health.

 

The thing that pisses me off is that that number was given in a vacuum. Was it done just hitting a training dummy with no movement, or was it done in a real game encounter that involved movement, knockbacks, etc. If it was done on a dummy, an operative is gonna lose a lot more dps due not having a gap closer to recover from knockbacks.

[Coldin]

The thing that pisses me off is that that number was given in a vacuum. Was it done just hitting a training dummy with no movement, or was it done in a real game encounter that involved movement, knockbacks, etc. If it was done on a dummy, an operative is gonna lose a lot more dps due not having a gap closer to recover from knockbacks.

 

Also will lose a lot of DPS if getting in Backstab proves to be an issue. I hate wasting several seconds trying to get behind a player or boss, and getting error messages. Or trying to get behind a moving enemy while sneaking and getting spotted before being able to open. Be nice if I had a from stealth snare that didn't fill resolve...just to get them to stand still long enough to get into position.

[Dissentus]

Go play Deception Assassin then come tell me about how weak Operative DPS is. It's INFINITELY better than assassin's equivilent spec.

 

Sin's don't even have a way to keep someone immobile. You have one long cd stun and an ability where you can't hit the opponent.

 

I also have both, and you are completely wrong. Sins have a stun and a knockdown as well and can burst for more when they get their charges built up. Operative can burst a bit easier however, because it's frontloaded from stealth.

[JustTray]

I also have both, and you are completely wrong. Sins have a stun and a knockdown as well and can burst for more when they get their charges built up. Operative can burst a bit easier however, because it's frontloaded from stealth.

 

You say I'm completely wrong, then agree with me. Frontload dps >>> in PvP. That's the entire point.

[JustTray]

I have both and you're dead wrong. Deception damage is excellent, and you don't rely on a stealth opener nearly as much as an operative. Ops do a bit more burst from stealth, but assassins catch up and exceed the operative very quickly. Your long CD stun is also 30m range, force shroud is hands down better than evasion, and you've got the awesome ability force speed to keep on a target. Add the knockback in there, and it should be abundantly clear why I play my assassin 90% of the time and my operative maybe 10%. Deception spec is currently worse than darkness, which is why people aren't complaining about it nearly as much.

 

First statement says I'm dead wrong, everything after that proves why I'm right.

 

Operatives relying on an opener is another way of saying operative opener is much stronger. In PvP (that's where this thread is right?) that's all that matters. Your opponent will escape you if you dont burst them down. Sustained burst/charges are incredibly insignificant as a class that has ~15% damage mitigation. Chaining stuns is essential for this class, an operative excels at that, by your own admission.

 

All defensive gains are offset by medium armor. Stun is offset even moreso by the fact that the secondary stun you cannot hurt the opponent. Ranged stuns are nearly useless for a class that is melee and only offer maginal gain over operative.

 

Force speed sucks for deception because you don't have the talent to remove snares. Knockback's animation time is nearly as long as healcast times, making it only useful for knocking people into fire or off edges in huttball, yet another thing that only has marginal gain in pvp for a burst dps spec.

 

And lastly I know you are lying about your Assassin favoritism, and that goes to all of you, because you're in here defending the superior class fishing for unnecessary buffs. You don't play deception, because you know how inferior it is. That's what your darkness comment tells me.

 

Now if anyone wants to have honest discussion about Sin deception vs Op then continue, but so far this is just disproven QQ by bad ops.

Edited March 26, 2012 by JustTray