Race against the clock

[Snakeyees]

I have a simple question.

 

This game is about entertainment, we play to play and enjoy ourselves. so why is it we have to beat some clock to prove that we can do it? enrage timers IMHO are pointless. I sure would like a Developers Perspective on them.

[Trineda]

Hello there,

 

We saw this thread and thought you might be interested in a recent question and the answer from our Community Q&A Blog from March 23rd.

 

Mksaccount: Are there any plans on adjusting rage timers in hard mode Flashpoints?

 

Gabe Amatangelo (Lead Endgame & PvP Designer): The team continues to tune Flashpoint bosses based on metrics and feedback. Bosses that are a ‘spike’ in the progression curve (e.g. when a second boss might be more difficult than the last) are being addressed in one way or another, be it increasing their enrage timer, decreasing their health, extending the cooldown of control abilities, etc.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Trineda

[Jinxblog]

Games have the challenge of catering to two groups of people: "casual" and "hardcore".

 

At times, I love just solo leveling. Wandering through the forests of Alderaan, poking around the caves and sands of Tatooine, or trekking through the underworld of Nar Shadda. It's fun! It's relaxing! It immerses me in the SWTOR universe.

 

Other times, I love the challenge of Nightmare Operations. Saying I'm part of the best Republic raiding guild on my server is an awesome feeling! Seeing that boss fall, being one of the few to do so, that is ridiculously fun as well.

 

I like to think of myself as living in both worlds, the casual and the hardcore. Thus, I am able to see BW's plight when some people ask to take away enrage timers on bosses and the hardcore cry out in objection because the fights already have little challenge.

 

As it stands, I do not want BW to take away enrage timers. That would, in a way, perpetuate the problem. Right now, the mechanics of many fights are very simple, which makes the hardcore population roll their eyes. Enrages are our only challenge (besides bugs!). At the same time, casual players want to see and experience operations/flashpoints as well, but may find enrage timers hindering, annoying, and in your case, useless. BW cannot take away a major part of the current challenge (the enrage) nor can they make the fights super easy to accommodate every player.

 

The solution? Soft enrages and a mode designed for casuals.

 

I love how BW's has already taken the initiative on the latter half. It's a great step in the right direction! However, I love to see more mechanics like Karagga's oil fires and Soa's mind traps in future fights. It requires more group teamwork and strategy than just "heal through damage and burn down the boss". I see it as an amazing opportunity for Bioware to create some engaging fights and give the hardcores something they will truly enjoy.

 

I do think a line has to be drawn. I believe that casuals need to understand that they will not be downing hard/nightmare mode content without putting forth the effort that the modes require. Just as I don't expect a hardcore PvPer to find much enjoyment in leveling alts as I do, I won't complain in Warzones if people with better strategy and more experience wipe the floor with me. Everyone has the realm in which they play in and you cannot expect BW to make all the content aimed towards the most casual player, just as it is not aimed toward the elitist hardcores.

 

To each their own.

[Battilea]

I have a simple question.

 

This game is about entertainment, we play to play and enjoy ourselves. so why is it we have to beat some clock to prove that we can do it? enrage timers IMHO are pointless. I sure would like a Developers Perspective on them.

 

Most of the clocks aren't that rough. They merely hold the DPS to a reasonable standard, much like tanks and healers always have been. A healer has to roughly match incoming damage and the tank has to mitigate a certain amount of damage, DPS has to do a reasonable amount of damage.

 

When I was playing DCUO, for example, being in DPS stance gave a considerable bonus, enough that a decent DPS should do 2x the damage of the tank. And a good one a sizable chunk more than that. Yet it wasn't uncommon to run across DPS that did about the same level of damage as the tank. Now, if they were healers and healed that bad, the entire party would wipe repeatedly. If the tank tanked that bad, again, dead tank often, potential party wipes. But DPS? They could get carried. With enrage timers, they can't.

 

Also, worth keeping in mind that it only applies to 3 fights per instance, 4 if you bother with the bonus boss. And most of those fights aren't that long. So plenty of time to relax, chat, and gab the rest of the time, as long as you perform decently for a few minutes every so often.

 

Now, that may have sounded a bit harsh, but, well, that is basically what they are going for, to hold DPS accountable the same way healers and tanks are.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Battilea

[ViperI]

IMO, enrage timers should be a mechanic that is used sparingly to make a specific boss special, not something you just slap on every boss just because. It forces you to do the fights with specific group setups. You're not given the opportunity to take more healers for a more controlled fight or choose more dps for a faster kill. Not every boss needs to be a gear check for your DPS, especially when there are no gear checks for your tanks and healers.

 

In short, make enrage timers a special mechanic and find challenges by other means.

[Battilea]

IMO, enrage timers should be a mechanic that is used sparingly to make a specific boss special, not something you just slap on every boss just because. It forces you to do the fights with specific group setups. You're not given the opportunity to take more healers for a more controlled fight or choose more dps for a faster kill. Not every boss needs to be a gear check for your DPS, especially when there are no gear checks for your tanks and healers.

 

In short, make enrage timers a special mechanic and find challenges by other means.

 

The enrage timers are not so tight that they require specific group makeups. For that matter, for things like FPs or their HM equivs, it doesn't really that much, provided the classes are properly balanced to be within 5% of each other. And, for the most part, they are. The player matters more than the class.

 

For Ops, well, they are meant to be tougher, though, really, the normal mode ones are pretty simple. And if you start doing HM and Nightmare mode ops, then, yes, little things matter. But that's always the case with pushing the envelope. Those are meant to be rougher. And, again, in the raids, there's ones that are a DPS check and ones that, if you can make the DPS check, are not a problem. If you look at EV, for example, the first boss is a bit of a check, though with good healing, you can increase DPS by staying out during the missiles (at least on normal and hard). Second fight, about the same. Third and forth? Not really, though I guess you could lose the 4th if you have someone that really sucks at dealing damage. And Soa isn't a DPS check, but rather, about positioning him properly and being quick enough to start blasting him.

 

Also, you'd be incorrect on the no gear checks on tanks and healers. The last fight in BP, for example, tends to stress the healer a bit, as well as being one of the tighter DPS checks. the bonus boss in Kaon, without cheesing him, another fight that can stress the healer a bit, though admittedly not one worth bothering with. And some of those fights are also tank gear checks, just that healers tend to have their back. Also worth noting that when the tank and/or healer are well geared, it frees them up to do more offensive things. The tank could use an offensive stat stim rather than the defensive one, assuming he's biochem, for example. The healer has time to throw in some DoTs.

 

The difference is that, traditionally, DPS has been allowed to be bad. Often very bad. The healer, the tank, the other DPS, they can carry them.

 

Mind you, I do agree that not every boss should have a tight DPS enrage timer. Some should be more about other things, not standing in the fire, that sort of deal. But there always being one to make sure there's some limit on how long it can take, to avoid people taking in 2 tanks and 6 healers. That's a good thing. It actually opens up design space.

 

Also, worth mentioning the OP sounds like a very casual player. If the enrage timers bother him, I doubt he wants to pay attention to lots of little things that set the overall difficulty the same as the enrage timer does. Those type of things would probably be even more annoying. Enrage timer usually just means run an efficient rotation, can be pretty braindead.

[BeeSiK]

Games have the challenge of catering to one group of people

"hardcore".

 

At times, I love just solo leveling. Wandering through the forests of Alderaan, poking around the caves and sands of Tatooine, or trekking through the underworld of Nar Shadda. It's fun! It's relaxing! It immerses me in the SWTOR universe.

 

Other times, I love the challenge of Nightmare Operations. Saying I'm part of the best Republic raiding guild on my server is an awesome feeling! Seeing that boss fall, being one of the few to do so, that is ridiculously fun as well.

 

I like to think of myself as living in both worlds, the casual and the hardcore. Thus, I am able to see BW's plight when some people ask to take away enrage timers on bosses and the hardcore cry out in objection because the fights already have little challenge.

 

As it stands, I do not want BW to take away enrage timers. That would, in a way, perpetuate the problem. Right now, the mechanics of many fights are very simple, which makes the hardcore population roll their eyes. Enrages are our only challenge (besides bugs!). At the same time, casual players want to see and experience operations/flashpoints as well, but may find enrage timers hindering, annoying, and in your case, useless. BW cannot take away a major part of the current challenge (the enrage) nor can they make the fights super easy to accommodate every player.

 

The solution? Soft enrages and a mode designed for casuals.

 

I love how BW's has already taken the initiative on the latter half. It's a great step in the right direction! However, I love to see more mechanics like Karagga's oil fires and Soa's mind traps in future fights. It requires more group teamwork and strategy than just "heal through damage and burn down the boss". I see it as an amazing opportunity for Bioware to create some engaging fights and give the hardcores something they will truly enjoy.

 

I do think a line has to be drawn. I believe that casuals need to understand that they will not be downing hard/nightmare mode content without putting forth the effort that the modes require. Just as I don't expect a hardcore PvPer to find much enjoyment in leveling alts as I do, I won't complain in Warzones if people with better strategy and more experience wipe the floor with me. Everyone has the realm in which they play in and you cannot expect BW to make all the content aimed towards the most casual player, just as it is not aimed toward the elitist hardcores.

 

To each their own.

 

there i fixed that for you

[Leonick]

While I too hate the enrage timers as they often feel like a cheap and lazy way to make a fight harder instead of giving the boss some interesting mechanics or abilities to do the same thing the fact is that they are there for a reason and the server their purpose.

What purpose might that be? They make it very hard if not impossible for a group of just tanks and healers or a good healer or two and a bunch of under-geared characters to go in to a flashpoint or operation and bash their head against the bosses until they win, as it stands you need to have a proper group and everyone need to do their part.

[ViperI]

The enrage timers are not so tight that they require specific group makeups. For that matter, for things like FPs or their HM equivs, it doesn't really that much, provided the classes are properly balanced to be within 5% of each other. And, for the most part, they are. The player matters more than the class.

 

For Ops, well, they are meant to be tougher, though, really, the normal mode ones are pretty simple. And if you start doing HM and Nightmare mode ops, then, yes, little things matter. But that's always the case with pushing the envelope. Those are meant to be rougher. And, again, in the raids, there's ones that are a DPS check and ones that, if you can make the DPS check, are not a problem. If you look at EV, for example, the first boss is a bit of a check, though with good healing, you can increase DPS by staying out during the missiles (at least on normal and hard). Second fight, about the same. Third and forth? Not really, though I guess you could lose the 4th if you have someone that really sucks at dealing damage. And Soa isn't a DPS check, but rather, about positioning him properly and being quick enough to start blasting him.

 

Well, first off, I was thinking only of ops, I've been out of the HMFP scene for quite some time and even when I did run those, I rarely saw enrage pop anyways.

 

As for ops, the enrage timers are rather tight IMO, even for normals if you take into consideration the level of gear that you will have when just starting out on them. I get why you use enrage timers, I really do, I just think that they need to be a special mechanic and not something you throw on every boss in the instance. Or, you could have a few bosses with a tighter enrage timer that is specifically setup as a DPS check and then others where the enrage is very loose.

 

Also, you'd be incorrect on the no gear checks on tanks and healers. The last fight in BP, for example, tends to stress the healer a bit, as well as being one of the tighter DPS checks. the bonus boss in Kaon, without cheesing him, another fight that can stress the healer a bit, though admittedly not one worth bothering with. And some of those fights are also tank gear checks, just that healers tend to have their back. Also worth noting that when the tank and/or healer are well geared, it frees them up to do more offensive things. The tank could use an offensive stat stim rather than the defensive one, assuming he's biochem, for example. The healer has time to throw in some DoTs.

 

Again, don't care about FPs, but in Ops, as the MT, I have never felt like a fight really pushed me or was any sort of a gear check. Most Ops bosses hit like a wet noodle on the MT, they just do more AOE damage to the rest of the raid. A successful boss run is more about keeping everyone live for the entire fight, because again, it just boils down to beating enrage, than it is about tank vs boss mitigation and control mechanics. You could tank most every boss in the game in sub-par gear and I've done HM ops with healers still in leveling greens and less than 13k hp. Once your tank is geared in >50% rakata gear, it's seriously a joke at how little damage he actually takes.

 

The difference is that, traditionally, DPS has been allowed to be bad. Often very bad. The healer, the tank, the other DPS, they can carry them.

 

Fair enough, but we all know that only baddies play DPS classes, if a player is skilled, they roll tank or healer.

 

Mind you, I do agree that not every boss should have a tight DPS enrage timer. Some should be more about other things, not standing in the fire, that sort of deal. But there always being one to make sure there's some limit on how long it can take, to avoid people taking in 2 tanks and 6 healers. That's a good thing. It actually opens up design space.

 

Fair enough, so put loose enrage timers on most bosses to at least prevent the 2 tank/6 healer situation, and have normal enrage timers on a select few. It's just maddening to be able to tank/heal/control a boss for the entire fight, but "whoops, you didn't do it fast enough, enrage at 10% and you die."