Hitting stealthers once just to keep them in combat?

[Agemnon]

Also, sages can't stealth, and they can't purge all DoTs.

 

I noticed that on my sage healer =(

[Metalmac]

I don't know about that, the person you're responding to might know to stay out of a 30meter perimeter while he waits his 8 sec to leave combat and go stealth...that is a skill, a forethought well executed in order to retrieve his big openers again.

 

I fail to see how attacking an opponent (no matter how you do it) while in a pvp area (warzone no less) could ever be thought of as exploiting. In fact its the whole point to the Qing up to pvp.

 

In my eyes, what I see the OP asking for is the power to put a ticket in on anyone who attacks him while he wants to go stealth again.....how would an enemy player even know that those are his intentions?

 

The only way to achieve what the OP wants is to allow him to make the opener every time before you were allowed to attack them...Which by the way is EXACTLY what stealth was designed for! But the Dev's want YOU to figure out how to get back into a stealth, not make other people subject to your whim's about whether your deciding to go stealth or what have you.

 

 

Just try to remember that this is not WoW and rogues to not exist here, which is what i think has a lot of stealthies all full of spit and vinegar.

 

As a Sawbones this argument does not float. The problem is very simple as what escapes does a Sawbones have to get away?

 

STEALTH, that is it.

Dirty kick will not allow you enough distance to get away.

Flash Grenade does not allow enough time to get out of range either.

 

The only ability we have is on a 2 minute cooldown. It is not a nuke to others it is survival.

[MorgonKara]

If you don't want to be in-combat then stay on your ship.

[Incauta]

As a Sawbones this argument does not float. The problem is very simple as what escapes does a Sawbones have to get away?

 

STEALTH, that is it.

Dirty kick will not allow you enough distance to get away.

Flash Grenade does not allow enough time to get out of range either.

 

The only ability we have is on a 2 minute cooldown. It is not a nuke to others it is survival.

 

You can always employ tactics like LOSing and keeping closer to allies who can help distract enemies.

 

My first comment aside in what you quoted me on, my largest point was there would never be a way to see the discrepancy of a person who wants to be in stealth and one who doesn't...

[Metalmac]

The sage bubble is incapable of absorbing more than about 4k, and completely ignores all damage mitigation, so it gets eaten up significantly faster by kinetic and energy attacks, as it pretends the target has no armor for the damage is absorbs.

 

Also, sages can't stealth, and they can't purge all DoTs. I'm sure you meant Shadows, and that is because that is their primary tanking cooldown. They are a class that has a tank spec, ops/scoundrels are a class that has a heal spec. As a result, ops can do some decent self-healing, and shadows can do some decent tanking. Not sure what the issue is here. Shadows/Scoundrels are different classes with very different playstyles. Just because they can both stealth doesn't mean they're intended to be identical.

 

Survival is the issue here. Look at the number of deaths as I am sure Bio Ware is doing.

 

When you have Scouldrels as the highest class killed that indicates a problem with Stealth.

 

There is a good reason the least played class is the least played. This is number one reason.

[Ryotknife]

No matter what class I'm playing or role I'm performing, if I see you in stealth, I'ma hit you with my basic attack and go back to what I was doing.

 

Stealth classes, especially scoundrel/operatives, rely on their opening, so keeping them from using it is similar to interrupting a class that relies on long casts.

 

Do you think it's supposed to be some grand secret that you can't stealth unless in combat? The good players will know the likely reactions to most events and be prepared to counter them. They will know nearly all of your abilities either by fighting your class or playing an alt. Knowledge is power. If you're predictable, you get squashed.

 

As an example, my vanguard has an ability called "Hold the Line"

For 8 seconds, he becomes immune to slows, snares, grapples, pulls, and knockbacks.

Since most people are hilariously predictable, I will walk precariously close to an edge and turn on my Hold The Line. Then I will laugh as I see them and sometimes 1-2 nearby friends all run over and waste their knockbacks trying to shove me off the ledge or into fire/acid, etc.

Had they known anything about my class, they would have known that the red energy cell means I will likely have this ability, and they will know when it's up by the orange circle under my feet for its duration. They would then use their knockbacks in a more careful way and negate my strategy for making them waste it when it won't affect me.

 

PvP is entirely about anticipating enemy responses and countering them. Endlessly.

 

If you're mad you got countered, you're missing the point. Think of it like chess. You do something, they counter, you counter their counter, they counter your counter for their counter, etc. You need to have this mapped out in your head as you engage a target. Stay a few moves ahead. This "few moves ahead" thing will also have branches. If you use an ability and he uses Counter A, you use Follow-Up A, but if he uses Counter B, you use Follow-Up B.

 

Knowledge is everything in PvP. As someone who finds human behavior extremely fascinating, this is what makes PvP so much fun for me.

 

Also, you have an ability that increases your stealth level by like 15. Use it when you need to close on an enemy. Stealth isn't too hard to spot at close range.

 

to be fair, hold the line/hydralic override do not have obvious animations and are quite subtle. ive played AP for a bit, and i have to REALLY pay attention to see if those abilites are used. usually i wont know until after i try to snare or grapple.

[Grubfist]

As a Sawbones this argument does not float. The problem is very simple as what escapes does a Sawbones have to get away?

 

STEALTH, that is it.

Dirty kick will not allow you enough distance to get away.

Flash Grenade does not allow enough time to get out of range either.

 

The only ability we have is on a 2 minute cooldown. It is not a nuke to others it is survival.

 

As a healer, why are you not hugging a pillar or corner 100% of the time? You should be fully expecting to be focused at any point you are casting heals and have a plan of actions ready. Dirty Kick is a stun with a 30-second cooldown that gives you a a movement speed boost. Considering all healers can easily get away with pillar-humping alone, I'm not sure why you think this isn't enough.

 

And yes, I know the decreased cooldown and speed boost are talented in the Dirty Fighting tree, but you'd be silly to not sub-spec up there once you got your 31-point talent.

[Metalmac]

I noticed that on my sage healer =(

 

Sorry should have said Shadow.

 

This is why they need a nerf. The Sage can just out heal me. Oh the reason for the nerf.

[Grubfist]

to be fair, hold the line/hydralic override do not have obvious animations and are quite subtle. ive played AP for a bit, and i have to REALLY pay attention to see if those abilites are used. usually i wont know until after i try to snare or grapple.

 

Hydraulic Override is an enormous glowing flower. It is impossible to not notice. You're right that Hold the Line is harder to spot though, but if they see me with the red cell buff, they should be looking for it when they use a knockback.

[Ryotknife]

Hydraulic Override is an enormous glowing flower. It is impossible to not notice. You're right that Hold the Line is harder to spot though, but if they see me with the red cell buff, they should be looking for it when they use a knockback.

 

there are quite a few ground effects that another one can go largely unnoticed (especially since a lot of them are nothing to really note), not like...say energy shield from a pt, paladin bubble from wow, or hand of freedom from wow.

 

in one way the non-obvious animations are a good thing because although in wow it is very easy to recognize any and all abilities simply via animations, in raids or large scale pvp you get a fireworks show that severely hampers computers.

 

something like hold the line or hydralic override should have a slightly more obvious animation considering how potent it is. im not going to lie, i do not pay attention to someones feet (unless there is something that really grabs my attention). body/hands, yes.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Ryotknife

[ragingcanuck]

Next thing I'll see here is someone wants stealthers to plant bombs/cap turrets in stealth and not have it be a hack

[Metalmac]

As a healer, why are you not hugging a pillar or corner 100% of the time? You should be fully expecting to be focused at any point you are casting heals and have a plan of actions ready. Dirty Kick is a stun with a 30-second cooldown that gives you a a movement speed boost. Considering all healers can easily get away with pillar-humping alone, I'm not sure why you think this isn't enough.

 

And yes, I know the decreased cooldown and speed boost are talented in the Dirty Fighting tree, but you'd be silly to not sub-spec up there once you got your 31-point talent.

 

Ok SAWBONES does not have a steed burst on Dirty Kick, that is a different tree in Dirty Fighting 7 points up in that tree.

 

Besides Dirty Kick will NEVER allow me to get out of range in time unless you are talking a single player as it only works on a single target. Not all targets like push backs from Sage.

Not to mention that now they have a full resolve bar so nothing can now stop them from catching me.

 

My only escape method is Stealth for a Stealth class. So you are saying being shut out most of the game is ok in your book? Well not being a Sawbones I can see why you would say that.

[Grubfist]

Ok SAWBONES does not have a steed burst on Dirty Kick, that is a different tree in Dirty Fighting 7 points up in that tree.

 

Besides Dirty Kick will NEVER allow me to get out of range in time unless you are talking a single player as it only works on a single target. Not all targets like push backs from Sage.

Not to mention that now they have a full resolve bar so nothing can now stop them from catching me.

 

My only escape method is Stealth for a Stealth class. So you are saying being shut out most of the game is ok in your book? Well not being a Sawbones I can see why you would say that.

 

Firstly, here's a spec for you, since you apparently suck at making PvP specs.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701McfbdGoRdsZ0cZGb.1

 

Secondly, the only time a 4-second stun isn't enough time to get behind LoS is when you're standing in a flat, open plain, which you should never, EVER be doing as a healer.

[Metalmac]

Next thing I'll see here is someone wants stealthers to plant bombs/cap turrets in stealth and not have it be a hack

 

Is this any less fair then some OP class that are impossible to kill with a single healer on them?

 

I have seen a single Assassin with a single healer take on 7 players and they could not kill him in Ilum. 10 minutes and his health never dipped below 50% once. The healer was on the top of the eastern edge of center. I could not shut the healer down alone as a Sawbones.

 

We have very OP classes in this game that need a nerf for good reason. Stealth healers are not in any way a OP class right now.

[Frisemort]

So now clever use of game mechanics is exploiting?

 

God those FPS kiddies will never stop to amaze me.

[Grubfist]

Is this any less fair then some OP class that are impossible to kill with a single healer on them?

 

I have seen a single Assassin with a single healer take on 7 players and they could not kill him in Ilum. 10 minutes and his health never dipped below 50% once. The healer was on the top of the eastern edge of center. I could not shut the healer down alone as a Sawbones.

 

We have very OP classes in this game that need a nerf for good reason. Stealth healers are not in any way a OP class right now.

 

It's not OP if your team ignores all reason and feeds right into the enemy's strongest point.

[Metalmac]

Firstly, here's a spec for you, since you apparently suck at making PvP specs.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701McfbdGoRdsZ0cZGb.1

 

Secondly, the only time a 4-second stun isn't enough time to get behind LoS is when you're standing in a flat, open plain, which you should never, EVER be doing as a healer.

 

LOL Cool Head has zero points.

 

Well healing is not your thing huh. But running away seems to be your only talent.

 

You are not going to out perform any other healers with that spec for healing. Good luck.

[siant]

Originally Posted by Agemnon

It's an exploit since if you enter combat with someone your intention should actually be to fight them. Since they're out of stealth you could finish them off. If they're smart they won't commit vanish to being on CD (unless the situation actually called for it).

 

If you think your right the high lighted section is a reason for getting RID of stealth as you stealther's enter in to combat and as you put it "actually fight" instead of getting close to death and stealthing out. I think your wrong by the way you have a cleanse to get rid of dots i use it all the time on my smuggler if you cant figure that easy idea out re-roll. Do not come to the forums moaning about something that is not a issue.

[Metalmac]

It's not OP if your team ignores all reason and feeds right into the enemy's strongest point.

 

You ignored on purpose that this is flat out OverPowered and you offer no argument otherwise.

[Metalmac]

Originally Posted by Agemnon

It's an exploit since if you enter combat with someone your intention should actually be to fight them. Since they're out of stealth you could finish them off. If they're smart they won't commit vanish to being on CD (unless the situation actually called for it).

 

If you think your right the high lighted section is a reason for getting RID of stealth as you stealther's enter in to combat and as you put it "actually fight" instead of getting close to death and stealthing out. I think your wrong by the way you have a cleanse to get rid of dots i use it all the time on my smuggler if you cant figure that easy idea out re-roll. Do not come to the forums moaning about something that is not a issue.

 

Your argument does not fly.

I have 79 Valor right now and have stood many times using Cleanse 8 times and the DoTs are still there and can not be Cleansed at all.

[Psiwolf]

Sorry should have said Shadow.

 

This is why they need a nerf. The Sage can just out heal me. Oh the reason for the nerf.

 

Yeah, how dare those healers heal and keep themselves alive when you're trying to kill one, right?

[Grubfist]

LOL Cool Head has zero points.

 

Well healing is not your thing huh. But running away seems to be your only talent.

 

You are not going to out perform any other healers with that spec for healing. Good luck.

Who cares about the numbers you get versus other healers? As long as you are alive when it counts and heal someone when it counts, you're contributing more than any other healer spam-healing idiots fighting away from objectives.

 

You ignored on purpose that this is flat out OverPowered and you offer no argument otherwise.

 

If someone spams tech effects on a shadow that has Resilience up, the shadow will not take any damage. Just because they refused to use ranged/melee abilities while he was glowy does not mean he is overpowered.

Similarly, when a tank is being healed by a healer that is free-casting, every person hitting the tank is hitting them in vain. 1-2 should be disrupting that healer, whether with interrupts/control, or just damaging him to make him heal himself some as well.

 

Your argument does not fly.

I have 79 Valor right now and have stood many times using Cleanse 8 times and the DoTs are still there and can not be Cleansed at all.

 

I was unaware that higher valor ranks gave you better cleanse abilities. Unless they do, there is no point mentioning your valor rank.

And you can cleanse physical, tech, and mental effects, up to 2 at a time. If you stood still and used 8 cleanses in a row, you waited 40 seconds just trying to deal with DoTs. If that failed to cleanse them all, then either you had a Force DoT on you and were silly to keep using your cleanse, or the DoTs were still being actively applied to you, and you are silly for trying to cleanse so much when you need direct healing when people are actually attacking you.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Grubfist

[sswdan]

I have seen and experienced this many times, a person would hit my character then just run off to fight someone else. I feel that this is a flagrant exploitation of game mechanics as well as DoTing just as an anti-stealth instead of a HoT mitigation. Here are some suggestions for stealth classes and undoing exploits:

 

1. DoTs and time spent in combat reduce the (really, really long 2 minute) CD on skills such as disappearing act.

 

2. Reduce the CD of DA to 1:30, and remove talenting into it all together.

 

3. Give smugglers sprint (if gunslingers/snipers don't have one already) equal to force speed. Still won't be competitive with sages in Huttball (which is what devs want, amirite?), but would at least have some utility.

 

4. Give a shadowstep ability.

 

5. An out of stealth delay.

 

6. An increased cone for behind attacks, since many players walk backwards which is just as fast as stealth speed a spring can be used to run through the player and shoot first then backblast them to get around their exploit.

 

7 Since scoundrel/operative damage is dependent on the position of the player said damage needs a buff. If maras/knights can do obscene damage from anywhere within 4 meters (and even beyond with their throw lightsaber move) then operatives/scoundrels should do even more since we have a more restricted positional requirement, and one that's easy enough to avoid.

 

8. BHs/troopers have an anti-stealth probe. Knowing about this hurts our DPS as we have to wait for it to drop before committing ourselves to an attack or wait for their GCD to activate (a very short window).

 

9. Reduce stealth's CD to 2 seconds, 1 with a talent point.

 

10. Buff stealth speed to normal. Then sprint wouldn't be needed to walk through and get in back attacks.

 

11. Improve targeting, but this applies to all classes.

 

Ifyou have trouble playing your character as it is that wont help you.. you need to adapt or reroll...

[Joms]

i'm a smuggler and i think OP just wants a god-mode class

 

your not a stealther..

 

I agree the out of combat needs to start earlier running around in 45 sec just waiting for combat to end is stupid...

[Grubfist]

your not a stealther..

 

I agree the out of combat needs to start earlier running around in 45 sec just waiting for combat to end is stupid...

 

I have a 50 stealther dps. And what you said is utter ********. It doesn't take "45 seconds" to get out of combat, nor is there any reason to "run around in circles" during this time.

 

Please provide a video that proves that you can go 45 seconds without attacking or being attacked and still be in combat. When you do, I'll laugh at you for running in circles during that time, and tell you some areas you can go to help position yourself before stealthing without going back into combat.