When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[kyuyu]

The exact same logic can be applied to sage, scoundrels, gunslingers...?

 

Sorry I'm missing your point? Do shadows/assassins deserve special attention? Is the 5 second immunity not enough? Trade it for the gunslinger/scoundrel fail defence screen?

 

You know how oped and spoiled those tankassin are lol

 

My sniper just roots myself for all melees to attack, oh 3 sec. range/melee defense is so nice when assassins/mara have force attacks!

 

I don't quite understand why melee should have so many nice defense cooldowns and vanish.

 

Is our 35 m range so awesome that we have to be penalized with cover and no meaningful defenses?

[kyuyu]

Infiltration/Balance don't have 5 seconds of immunity. And a Gunslinger can still hit through it with their core attacks.

 

And I've played healer for quite a few months now and I know which classes take the most damage. And want to know the difference between the Sage/Gunslinger to Infiltration Shadow.....Sage and Gunslinger are RANGED classes. Meaning they're most likely not having to get in the middle of the fight because well you know, they can attack from 30m range.

 

 

Infiltration is a LIGHT armored melee class. They have to be within 5-10m 99% of the time to attack their target. With the amount of AoE attacks in this game, it's nearly quite possible to not even have to focus a Infiltration Shadow because the AoEs can nearly finish them off.

 

Well, maybe don't get in the middle of fight? Stealth to those pesky ranged classes and assassinate them?

 

I wish I could just sit there at range and shoot without melee harassing me.

 

Also how does operative handle? Why are they getting nerfed over and over?

Edited March 26, 2012 by kyuyu

[Xinika]

Do you ever post anything constructive? It seems you relentlessly set out to defend your own class without any consideration to the point being made. I shouldn't be surprised, players of such a calibre often attempt this.

 

Either way, you probably think you have "mad" PVP skillz and are hence under the illusion that shadows are difficult to play - they simply are not, not much in this game is that hard. The only exception to the rule, imo, is sentinels, due to their rotations and the sheer amount of moves they have to play through.

 

Shadow/*** that run in this hybrid try to claim that their other two specs are gimped - they literally have no idea what gimped is. Most classes have one or two trees that aren't viable for PVP, and I know enough GOOD shadow/assassins who pull off very high numbers with infil or balance.

 

Bottom line - Infil and balance may be harder specs to play (marginally), but they are still certainly viable. The tank/dps one is just overpowered and easier.

 

Hahaha okay, I'll take a bite.

 

First, I play all specs of my class. I know what my class can and cannot do. Balance being the hardest to play and also the most mediocre. Infil being quite possibly the worst spec in game for group pvp yet great for duels. (Duels, lol) Kinetic is actually balanced. If anything, KC could use a buff.

 

I'm defending the spec, but from a rightful standpoint. AMSKED is basing his judgements off horrible players. Ranked WZs will make this a MUCH different case. Against good premades on my server, believe me- I cannot solo 2 good players at a node and I swap in-and-out tank/dps gear when I play KC. DPS gear while defending an objective is an awful idea in serious pvp. If you're finding success with that, then that's not a spec checkup. That's your enemy just plain as day "sucking".

 

Kinetic also has the lowest passive mitigation of all tanks. A guardian or vanguard tank is a better choice. Especially vanguards who can be virtually unkillable. You want to talk about 2v1? Go see what vanguards can pull off. Our mitigation is self-heals and unlike other tanks, you can actually stop our mitigation.

 

Hybrid specs are trash. Are you even being CLOSE to serious? Good luck on using one for rated wzs. That's all I'm going to say on that one.

 

We're a generalist, not a specialist. In small scale situations we may fare well. As the group grows larger, we lose more and more viability. Our DPS specs are replaced by other classes. (See: Sents) Even KC is replaced by other tanks who can fulfill the role much better.

 

You thinking this spec needs a nerf because you're fighting bad players is a flawed argument. PuGs mean nothing. Can't wait for cross-realm ranked wzs.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Xinika

[AMKSED]

Well, maybe don't get in the middle of fight? Stealth to those pesky ranged classes and assassinate them?

 

I wish I could just sit there at range and shoot without melee harassing me.

 

Also how does operative handle? Why are they getting nerfed over and over?

 

Easier said than done tbh.

[AMKSED]

Hahaha okay, I'll take a bite.

 

First, I play all specs of my class. I know what my class can and cannot do. Balance being the hardest to play and also the most mediocre. Infil being quite possibly the worst spec in game for group pvp yet great for duels. (Duels, lol) Kinetic is actually balanced. If anything, KC could use a buff.

 

I'm defending the spec, but from a rightful standpoint. AMSKED is basing his judgements off horrible players. Ranked WZs will make this a MUCH different case. Against good premades on my server, believe me- I cannot solo 2 good players at a node and I swap in-and-out tank/dps gear when I play KC. DPS gear while defending an objective is an awful idea in serious pvp. If you're finding success with that, then that's not a spec checkup. That's your enemy just plain as day "sucking".

 

Kinetic also has the lowest passive mitigation of all tanks. A guardian or vanguard tank is a better choice. Especially vanguards who can be virtually unkillable. You want to talk about 2v1? Go see what vanguards can pull off. Our mitigation is self-heals and unlike other tanks, you can actually stop our mitigation.

 

Hybrid specs are trash. Are you even being CLOSE to serious? Good luck on using one for rated wzs. That's all I'm going to say on that one.

 

We're a generalist, not a specialist. In small scale situations we may fare well. As the group grows larger, we lose more and more viability. Our DPS specs are replaced by other classes. (See: Sents) Even KC is replaced by other tanks who can fulfill the role much better.

 

You thinking this spec needs a nerf because you're fight bad players is a flawed argument. PuGs mean nothing. Can't wait for cross-realm ranked wzs.

 

Yes, ranked Warzones will show the light to the class. Because all you're going to see in the top ranks are the hybrid builds for Shadow and Assassins.

[Astarica]

The ceiling for a top Darkness Assassin is considerably higher than a top player of any other class simply because the class is capable of doing more. A top DPS class cannot Guard/Taunt even if they wanted to. A top healer has no meaningful capacity to do damage.

 

That said some people are just chest pumping with some of this awesome power. If you killed one guy 1 on 3 in an Alderran node, you've to thank the turret that provides excellent protection against all forms of DPS via LoS. If the enemy was smart enough to immediately stun you when popped into LoS or better yet just yank you away from the turret you'd still be totally dead. I've seen all kinds of gimp combinations of 2 people take down the top Shadow of the server easily. Yes one of the two gimps is likely to die but you don't cap a node for killing 1 out of the 2 guys. Honestly if 2 gimps can take out a guy who reliably puts numbers like 400/60/100 with 1 death that's a pretty good trade since that's likely higher numbers than 2 gimps can do combined.

 

Darkness has a speed advantage compared to virtually every class in the game since Wither is permanently on the enemy, so they're insane defenders on Alderaan if you can't yank them away from the turret.

[Boarg]

Infiltration is a LIGHT armored melee class. They have to be within 5-10m 99% of the time to attack their target. With the amount of AoE attacks in this game, it's nearly quite possible to not even have to focus a Infiltration Shadow because the AoEs can nearly finish them off.

 

Which is why Infiltration players have talents like -30% AoE damage taken....and +30% armor. Except most people don't even take them when they try Infiltration in favor of "lol, 0.5% more damage" in one flavor or another.

 

And then they rush in the middle of an AoE zone and try to fight like a tank spec and get gibbed. Gee, I wonder why Infiltration has such a bad rep.

 

If an Infiltration player takes all their defensive talents and plays smart, they are plenty durable enough to lead a warzone group in killing blows and be one of the top damage dealers. As well as be a great objectives player with talented stealth. It just takes a different mentality, fighting at the edges of combat bursting healers and ranged nukers and using LoS and such. And if you do end up in an AoE zone...well, you're taking as little from AoE as Kinetic specs due to -30% AoE damage right off the top.

 

Don't confuse high damage totals with high dps or high killing power. Kinetic gets big numbers on the board typically from AoE and simply being alive to keep plinking away. Padding the board isn't the same as winning.

[Ravenolf]

I remember when IA's meant insta death. No class is like that at the moment. But as the wheel of buffs/nerfs turns, Tankasins should not be left out of the discussion.

[JFTremb]

I would just like to see a Buff to Infiltration tree instead of a nerf on the tanking one. At this current state you use the tank tree for pvp and the dot tree or tank for pve, Zzz IMO

 

::Edit:: By ZZz i mean my personal test, I just prefer the playstyle of Infiltration vs Balance, and i hate tanking. Not a statement about how easy/hard they are to play.

Edited March 26, 2012 by JFTremb

[Rasheth]

This is false.

 

Infiltration and Balance specs are one of the most gimped tree specs in the game. Especially when you compare it to the hybrid build nearly everyone is migrating over to play.

 

With Infiltration/Balance you take nearly 2x more dmg, 2x less utility, and 2x less uptime.

 

I've mentioned earlier that Combat Technique needs to have a -15% dmg debuff instead of the -5% one they have currently and they need the damage/heal increase from Harnessed Shadows removed. And instead a damage debuff on attacked target. Get a 3 stack of HS, attack player with Telekinetic Throw then they get a 15% dmg debuff, 5% per HS stack.

 

Shadow/Force Technique need to be bumped up to medium armor status. Then implement the Harnessed Shadows into the Infiltration/Balance specs. Infiltration gets the damage increase from Telekinetic Throw and Balance gets the heal + making their Project/Throw 30m range since they're basically a caster class.

 

 

Your change would break Infiltration and make it OP. A self heal on infiltration you have to be kidding right? 30m project to balance tree what? Hey let me sever force and 30m project you all day come on man you havent thought that one through at all.

[AMKSED]

Your change would break Infiltration and make it OP. A self heal on infiltration you have to be kidding right? 30m project to balance tree what? Hey let me sever force and 30m project you all day come on man you havent thought that one through at all.

 

Just please, try and comprehend things when you read something.

 

So a 30m project is OP on Shadow, but for a Sage it's fine :/

Edited March 26, 2012 by AMKSED

[SquallyZ]

Which is why Infiltration players have talents like -30% AoE damage taken....and +30% armor. Except most people don't even take them when they try Infiltration in favor of "lol, 0.5% more damage" in one flavor or another.

 

And then they rush in the middle of an AoE zone and try to fight like a tank spec and get gibbed. Gee, I wonder why Infiltration has such a bad rep.

 

If an Infiltration player takes all their defensive talents and plays smart, they are plenty durable enough to lead a warzone group in killing blows and be one of the top damage dealers. As well as be a great objectives player with talented stealth. It just takes a different mentality, fighting at the edges of combat bursting healers and ranged nukers and using LoS and such. And if you do end up in an AoE zone...well, you're taking as little from AoE as Kinetic specs due to -30% AoE damage right off the top.

 

Don't confuse high damage totals with high dps or high killing power. Kinetic gets big numbers on the board typically from AoE and simply being alive to keep plinking away. Padding the board isn't the same as winning.

 

This +1

 

As infiltration spec I'm constantly in the top 3 or 4 players of a warzone match. It takes some time to get used to infiltration spec in pvp, but when you learn it and know your place then you'll do fine. Players who say infiltration spec isn't viable in pvp don't know what they're talking about. I also usually provide more protection via my taunts then most kinetic spec shadows in warzone because they're too busy trying to get top dps numbers. IMO if you play tank or hybrid tank spec you should always be taunting and always have your guard up on someone. For instance, in a warzone I just finished I was number one on the list out of all players with 290k damage and 32k protection. Next closest pub was a kinetic spec shadow with 268k damage and 28k protection. Now I applaud him for at least trying to taunt but your protection numbers should be well over 100k as a hybrid spec. Just find a healer or squishy range and throw your guard on them, 9 times outta 10 they'll see that and follow you, probably healing you.

 

:edit: Some may think 290k in a match might be low. But, keep in mind this is all single target, no aoe except to keep people form capping/planting.

Edited March 26, 2012 by SquallyZ

[kiroshei]

when they add force pull to every spec and voltaic thrash heals you each hit then i'll go back to deception. until then deception is broken so why nerf the only playable spec assassin has lol Edited March 26, 2012 by kiroshei

[Rasheth]

What I find OP is how I can watch a node solo in Alderaan or a Voidstar door. Have 3 people attack me, end up killing one, and staying alive long enough for someone to help/heal me. And if I actually have a healer on me that I'm guarding lol? Betting bring 4+ to take down my 2.

 

Now this would be fine and all if I was a Tank with Tank gear on and not killing anyone but just out living them. But as a hybrid I have around 17.5k Health, 40% Crit, and 75% Surge. Getting 3-4k crits with Project/Force in Balance/Spinning Strike while being nearly as strong as a full-out tank is stupid. Not to mention my DPS rotation with Double Strike crits 1kx2 each time I use it and then when I get a 3 stack of HS I can easily crit people for 1.5k-2.5k on people while healing myself for a good 2-3k health.

 

How can you find this OP? What classes are you being attacked by you can't just say I was attacked by 3 people killed 1 and held till others came. A powertech can do the same thing a sentinal/marauder in watchmen spec also can probably pull of the same thing given the right 3 classes coming to attack.

 

Lets say the 3 people that come to cap the node are all 3 PT healing specced are you going to kill them all? lets say 1 is a bh 2 are healers are you going to kill them?

 

On my server we have a Guardian at 20k hp he can definitely hold 3 people off till help comes not to mention that your team can take a direct speeder to the point to back up if they are dead. Called defenders advantage. Now if your team sends a infiltration assassin to single guard a node he might kill one depending if its another squishy class but he is gonna die quick.

 

Long story short if you are having anything other than a tank single defend a node in alderaan then your team is bad.

[kiroshei]

This +1

 

As infiltration spec I'm constantly in the top 3 or 4 players of a warzone match. It takes some time to get used to infiltration spec in pvp, but when you learn it and know your place then you'll do fine. Players who say infiltration spec isn't viable in pvp don't know what they're talking about.

 

thats where youre wrong. in a premade teamplay your spec is crap. admit it. you are completely useless to a ranked team as infil/deception. if youre playing that spec youre just hurting your teammates. solo queue its great. i used to feel the same way you did when i was forced to solo queue. but now....nope. its just broken. they need to add more flavor to that tree.

[Rasheth]

Just please, try and comprehend things when you read something.

 

So a 30m project is OP on Shadow, but for a Sage it's fine :/

 

Please THINK about balance a little better before proposing a change. You don't compare a Sage and a Shadow and say Sage has it why cant shadow. To many variables.

 

By your logic I can say I should have a Bubble cause sage has one. Sages don't put out the kind of SINGLE TARGET damage a shadow does by the same token sages dont have resilence.

I can still stun a sage in a bubble I can't stun a shadow who has popped resilence.

 

These 2 abilities alone make the classes totally different is what you fail to comprehend based on your thoughts to balance.

 

 

Sever Force

Instant

Force: 20

Cooldown: 9s

Range: 30 m

Weakens the target, freezing it in place for 2 seconds and dealing 854 internal damage over 18 seconds.

 

 

Add that in with your change of a 30m project and tell me why that doesnt seem OP? Kiting almost infinitely by the time your target gets to you. You can auto attack them for the kill forget spinning strike having to spend force for spinning strike.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Rasheth

[TipsyDrow]

And when can we expect the other trees to be balanced to be better for group play.

 

 

There's a reason why 90% of the people playing Assassin/Shadow are now playing hybrid.

 

You can't really count a 31/10 build as a hybrid. The hybrid specs for sins/shadows got nerfed into oblivion a few patches ago.

[AMKSED]

Please THINK about balance a little better before proposing a change. You don't compare a Sage and a Shadow and say Sage has it why cant shadow. To many variables.

 

By your logic I can say I should have a Bubble cause sage has one. Sages don't put out the kind of SINGLE TARGET damage a shadow does by the same token sages dont have resilence.

I can still stun a sage in a bubble I can't stun a shadow who has popped resilence.

 

These 2 abilities alone make the classes totally different is what you fail to comprehend based on your thoughts to balance.

 

Sages can put out crazy single target damage compared to a Balance Shadow.

 

And there are stuns that you can use on Shadows that have Resilience up.

 

 

What's funny, Shadows, in all specs used to have 30m range on their Project/Throw abilities and there wasn't ANY cries about it in beta yet it was changed.

[SquallyZ]

thats where youre wrong. in a premade teamplay your spec is crap. admit it. you are completely useless to a ranked team as infil/deception. if youre playing that spec youre just hurting your teammates. solo queue its great. i used to feel the same way you did when i was forced to solo queue. but now....nope. its just broken. they need to add more flavor to that tree.

 

This was a premade match with my guild. My place is picking off healers or keeping them busy so the rest of the team can dps down the main group. Or going to a lightly guarded point, bursting down the defender, and then proceeding to cap. I think we'll do just fine in ranked matches with me as a infiltration spec shadow. We'll do better then we're doing now because we won't have to deal with random pugs who don't know what they're doing in pvp.

 

What I'd really like to see is dual spec so I can run infiltration for offense and switch to kinetic for defense.

[AMKSED]

This was a premade match with my guild. My place is picking off healers or keeping them busy so the rest of the team can dps down the main group. Or going to a lightly guarded point, bursting down the defender, and then proceeding to cap. I think we'll do just fine in ranked matches with me as a infiltration spec shadow. We'll do better then we're doing now because we won't have to deal with random pugs who don't know what they're doing in pvp.

 

What I'd really like to see is dual spec so I can run infiltration for offense and switch to kinetic for defense.

 

Except when you're trying to burst down a guarded healer then doing 2x less damage to the healer while still being open to 2x more damage done to you.

Edited March 26, 2012 by AMKSED

[SquallyZ]

Except when you're trying to burst down a guarded healer then doing 2x less damage to the healer while still being open to 2x more damage done to you.

 

A smart player wouldn't be attacking a guarded healer now would he? Unless, like I said before, you're keeping the healer busy and interrupting them while the rest of your team takes out the tank guarding him. A smart player would also not be running off by himself trying to solo healer/tank guarding healer combo either.

Edited March 27, 2012 by SquallyZ

[Tempos]

The problem isn't the abilities that Tanksins/shadows are given, its the fact they are given great survivability along with great damage. As an infiltration shadow, i will always lose to a tank shadow/sin, often with them still at about 50% health. They should have to choose between damage or survivability, not get both. The best solution would be to put a damage penalty on the tanking stances, then give a threat bonus to not effect pve greatly. Tanks deserve to take less damage, and they have that, but their damage is way too high.

[Totgug]

And when can we expect the other trees to be balanced to be better for group play.

 

 

There's a reason why 90% of the people playing Assassin/Shadow are now playing hybrid.

 

I play pure Tank with Tank gear. no hybrid. i can help keep people alive, but my DPS is absolute crap. i personally hated the char until i did pure tank.

 

tried to play hybrid few times, was boring and had to have pocket healer with me 24/7. shadows/sins die very easily without their pocket healers.

[Rasheth]

Sages can put out crazy single target damage compared to a Balance Shadow.

 

And there are stuns that you can use on Shadows that have Resilience up.

 

 

What's funny, Shadows, in all specs used to have 30m range on their Project/Throw abilities and there wasn't ANY cries about it in beta yet it was changed.

 

what a 2 second stun from guardians? hardly anything a sage has.

 

regardless you can't compare Sages and Shadows in a vacuum. to many variables.

 

Do sages have anything like

 

Sever Force

Instant

Force: 20

Cooldown: 9s

Range: 30 m

Weakens the target, freezing it in place for 2 seconds and dealing 854 internal damage over 18 seconds.

 

Again can't compare in a vacuum.

 

And beta was so long ago. Did you know shadows could change stances without it costing 100 force back in beta. No one complained but it was changed. A 30m project on all specs for shadows obviously something was wrong with it. Thats why it was changed.

 

If I had a 30m project in infiltration spec I definitely would have stayed infil spec.

 

30m project in kinetic spec

 

Hmmm so it would go Here comes high Pri target. Project, force potency, relic, telekinetic throw (im in full stalker gear so I have 3 charges) project.

 

They are getting close now. 30m stun or should I use kick? dont want to fill that resolve bar lets get them close probably should pop resilence. Kick, slow time, force speed away to safe distance if i choose, project. Telekinetic throw.

 

Uh oh here they come 30m stun (time to start building up harnessed shadows since I already have the life lead might aswell heal the little damage they have done to me.

 

By the time a full melee range engagement has taken place you probably have force potency close to back up or your relic.

 

This scenario is ok for you?

[Adzzy]

Bioware balances very little for pvp, it comes down to

 

can you insta kill someone? yes/no

 

If no, no pvp balance will occur.

 

They balance to pve.