What is the role of the DPS sage anymore?

[taishartrueblood]

The devs also thought that panda land would work in WoW or that ToA would work in DAoC. Using an appeal to authority does not make you correct.

[SoonerJBD]

The devs also thought that panda land would work in WoW or that ToA would work in DAoC. Using an appeal to authority does not make you correct.

 

Please stop accusing me of using a logical fallacy that you clearly don't understand. Appeal to authority is a fallacy when the claimed authority is not actually an expert in the subject matter. In this case, the developers of the game are THE authority. They are the only ones who have access to the game's metrics and the real math involved here.

 

As for why I think the 0/13/28 build was overpowered, I am basing it on the best information we know. Everyone not playing a Sage was complaining about it. The developers of the game are nerfing it in the name of balance. Since they are the only ones with access to the metrics of what kind of damage people are doing, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt that their decision is based on those metrics. Your arguments that it wasn't are based on your personal feelings and a clearly biased perspective. You want to be successful. Therefore you will always feel the other guy had an advantage and you had to overcome obstacles. If you won, you overcame those obstacles or the playing field was fair. If you lost, the other guy's class or spec was OP. This is human nature. The developers of the game, however, are interested in balancing the game as much as possible. Do they make mistakes? Certainly. But I trust them more than you since they have more information than you.

 

My guess is the metrics showed the instant-cast TK waves were doing way more damage than intended not so much on single-target focus, but because of the splash damage. So they nerf it. What I would have preferred was a buff to Disturbance to make its single-target damage on par with what TK Wave was doing. I would even have accepted a longer cast time for a damage buff with the rationale being that we would use it primarily on PoM procs. Perhaps that will come in the future.

Edited April 3, 2012 by SoonerJBD

[DuSStyBottoms]

Please stop accusing me of using a logical fallacy that you clearly don't understand. Appeal to authority is a fallacy when the claimed authority is not actually an expert in the subject matter. In this case, the developers of the game are THE authority. They are the only ones who have access to the game's metrics and the real math involved here.

 

As for why I think the 0/13/28 build was overpowered, I am basing it on the best information we know. Everyone not playing a Sage was complaining about it. The developers of the game are nerfing it in the name of balance. Since they are the only ones with access to the metrics of what kind of damage people are doing, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt that their decision is based on those metrics. Your arguments that it wasn't are based on your personal feelings and a clearly biased perspective. You want to be successful. Therefore you will always feel the other guy had an advantage and you had to overcome obstacles. If you won, you overcame those obstacles or the playing field was fair. If you lost, the other guy's class or spec was OP. This is human nature. The developers of the game, however, are interested in balancing the game as much as possible. Do they make mistakes? Certainly. But I trust them more than you since they have more information than you.

 

My guess is the metrics showed the instant-cast TK waves were doing way more damage than intended not so much on single-target focus, but because of the splash damage. So they nerf it. What I would have preferred was a buff to Disturbance to make its single-target damage on par with what TK Wave was doing. I would even have accepted a longer cast time for a damage buff with the rationale being that we would use it primarily on PoM procs. Perhaps that will come in the future.

 

Pyrotech spec Powertechs and Rage Spec Juggs are easily getting 500-700k in a VS, the Powertech is single target. Very good Marauder's and Gunslingers can out DPS us. How is our 500-700k AoE damage overpowered?

 

On to your disturbance suggestion, I have no problem with it. I've even advocated swapping Turbulence and TK wave and leave everything else as is. Earlier in this thread I said that the nerf to POM/TK Wave would extremely hurt our burst damage and you stated something along the lines of ..

 

"I'm constantly amazed at people who want to push one or two buttons and get ZOMG BURST DAMAGE!!!"

 

Just thought you should know.

Edited April 3, 2012 by DuSStyBottoms

[taishartrueblood]

Sorry, you don't understand the logical fallacy. Not only would the appeal have to be to an expert, but there must be uniform consensus among experts on the matter. There is not. I showed you other cases where the developers, the ones who work with the game on a daily basis, were proved wrong... they are not the infallible force you believe them to be.

[Elaril]

Pyrotech spec Powertechs and Rage Spec Juggs are easily getting 500-700k in a VS, the Powertech is single target. Very good Marauder's and Gunslingers can out DPS us. How is our 500-700k AoE damage overpowered?

 

It wasn't. The problem was that the damage report didn't distinguish between fluff and effective damage, and pretty much every video/braggart that I've seen sorts the wz report by damage at the end. It's people's inability to seperate the two that was the problem. BW nerfed the thing that's most likely to have the least amount of impact on your actual gameplay and have the largest impact on the "OMGSAGEZRTUGUD" crowd.

[SoonerJBD]

Sorry, you don't understand the logical fallacy. Not only would the appeal have to be to an expert, but there must be uniform consensus among experts on the matter. There is not. I showed you other cases where the developers, the ones who work with the game on a daily basis, were proved wrong... they are not the infallible force you believe them to be.

 

You are flat wrong. Please at least look these things up before you start trying to apply them to others. Appeal to authority is a fallacy when the claimed authority is not an expert on the subject matter. In this case, the developers of the game are the only experts. They are the only ones with access to the game's metrics. And even using your definition, there is consensus among the devs. You don't qualify as an expert. Neither does anyone else that doesn't have access to the numbers or metrics involved. That doesn't mean experts of any sort are never wrong. Saying an expert can never be wrong is deductively fallacious. But that is not what I said, and trusting those who actually have the information over those who are talking out of their butts is not a logical fallacy.

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

"This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious. "

 

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-authority/

"The informal fallacy occurs only when the authority cited either (a) is not an authority, or (b) is not an authority on the subject on which he is being cited. If someone either isn’t an authority at all, or isn’t an authority on the subject about which they’re speaking, then that undermines the value of their testimony."

 

http://grammar.about.com/od/ab/g/appealauthterm.htm

"Not every appeal to authority commits this fallacy, but every appeal to an authority with respect to matters outside his special province commits the fallacy. 'These pills must be safe and effective for reducing. They have been endorsed by Miss X, star of stage, screen, and television.'"

(W.L. Reese, Dictionary of Philosophy and Religion. Humanities Press, 1980)

[SoonerJBD]

Pyrotech spec Powertechs and Rage Spec Juggs are easily getting 500-700k in a VS, the Powertech is single target. Very good Marauder's and Gunslingers can out DPS us. How is our 500-700k AoE damage overpowered?

 

On to your disturbance suggestion, I have no problem with it. I've even advocated swapping Turbulence and TK wave and leave everything else as is. Earlier in this thread I said that the nerf to POM/TK Wave would extremely hurt our burst damage and you stated something along the lines of ..

 

"I'm constantly amazed at people who want to push one or two buttons and get ZOMG BURST DAMAGE!!!"

 

Just thought you should know.

 

That was part of a different discussion. You were arguing that Sages have no burst and that using DoTs to ramp up damage for burst periods was not legitimate.

[DuSStyBottoms]

That was part of a different discussion. You were arguing that Sages have no burst and that using DoTs to ramp up damage for burst periods was not legitimate.

 

Where did I ever say we have NO burst? Maybe you should actually read the thread. The only thing I've ever said is that our burst is "going to be severely lacking come 1.2."

[SoonerJBD]

This was the specific comment you made that I took issue with, and the one I quoted when I made the reply that you just cited.

 

"No, it's you who doesn't understand the concept of burst (Burst damage is a term used to describe dealing high amounts of damage in a very short period of time). My definition of burst certainly doesn't involve anything with letters D, O, T, or S."

 

I took issue with your concept of burst damage. We can (and sill will) do large amounts of damage in short periods of time when we get procs that stack on our DoTs.

 

If I have Weaken Mind and Mind Crush up, and I get a PP proc, I can easily do 10-15k damage in five seconds or less. This is burst damage, whether you want to call it that or not.

 

I did not say, nor have I ever said, that losing instant-cast TK Waves would not reduce our burst damage.

[DuSStyBottoms]

This was the specific comment you made that I took issue with, and the one I quoted when I made the reply that you just cited.

 

"No, it's you who doesn't understand the concept of burst (Burst damage is a term used to describe dealing high amounts of damage in a very short period of time). My definition of burst certainly doesn't involve anything with letters D, O, T, or S."

 

I took issue with your concept of burst damage. We can (and sill will) do large amounts of damage in short periods of time when we get procs that stack on our DoTs.

 

If I have Weaken Mind and Mind Crush up, and I get a PP proc, I can easily do 10-15k damage in five seconds or less. This is burst damage, whether you want to call it that or not.

 

I did not say, nor have I ever said, that losing instant-cast TK Waves would not reduce our burst damage.

 

Take your complaints to WoWWiki and other legitimate websites that define burst and dot damage.

 

It's also impressive that you can EASILY take someone from 15k to 0 health in 5 seconds or less. You're a better Sage than I am sir. My full set of Battlemaster gear must be defective.

Edited April 3, 2012 by DuSStyBottoms

[taishartrueblood]

The appeal to authority may take several forms. As a statistical syllogism, it will have the following basic structure:[1]

 

Most of what authority a has to say on subject matter S is correct.

a says p about S.

Therefore, p is correct.

The strength of this argument depends upon two factors:[1][2]

 

1.The authority is a legitimate expert on the subject.

2.A consensus exists among legitimate experts on the matter under discussion.

These conditions may also simply be incorporated into the structure of the argument itself, in which case the form may look like this:[2]

 

X holds that A is true

X is a legitimate expert on the subject.

The consensus of experts agrees with X.

Therefore, there's a presumption that A is true.

[SoonerJBD]

Take your complaints to WoWWiki and other legitimate websites that define burst and dot damage.

 

It's also impressive that you can EASILY take someone from 15k to 0 health in 5 seconds. You're a better Sage than I am sir. My full set of Battlemaster gear must be defective.

 

Once again, that's not what I said. I said I can do that much damage in five seconds when all the procs line up.

 

6,000-plus with Psychic Projection in 2.7 seconds followed immediately by 3,000-plus from Force in Balance and another 2,000-plus from project after a 2 second cooldown. Add the Dot damage in, and, yeah, that's a lot of damage in a short period. Which is what I call burst.

[SoonerJBD]

The appeal to authority may take several forms. As a statistical syllogism, it will have the following basic structure:[1]

 

Most of what authority a has to say on subject matter S is correct.

a says p about S.

Therefore, p is correct.

The strength of this argument depends upon two factors:[1][2]

 

1.The authority is a legitimate expert on the subject.

2.A consensus exists among legitimate experts on the matter under discussion.

These conditions may also simply be incorporated into the structure of the argument itself, in which case the form may look like this:[2]

 

X holds that A is true

X is a legitimate expert on the subject.

The consensus of experts agrees with X.

Therefore, there's a presumption that A is true.

 

You are digging yourself into a deeper hole and further proving you don't understand what a logical fallacy is. That is an accurate description of an appeal to authority as syllogism. A syllogism is a deductive argument, and is perfectly valid. A fallacy is a false idea or an argument using false or invalid inferences. Appeal to authroity as a fallacy is using a false or invalid expert, as the sources I cited explained.

 

You said I was guilty of a logical fallacy. That is flat-out false. I used appeal to authority correctly as a syllogism. In fact, based on the description you just posted my argument is strong because it fits both criteria. The experts I cited are true experts. And since they are the only true experts, there is consensus.

 

Again, please learn and comprehend logical fallicies before you accuse others of using them.

[DuSStyBottoms]

Once again, that's not what I said. I said I can do that much damage in five seconds when all the procs line up.

 

6,000-plus with Psychic Projection in 2.7 seconds followed immediately by 3,000-plus from Force in Balance and another 2,000-plus from project after a 2 second cooldown. Add the Dot damage in, and, yeah, that's a lot of damage in a short period. Which is what I call burst.

 

What type of gear are you in? I've been PVP'ing heavily since beta and I've never taken someone from 15k to 0 health in 4 GCD. Is this something you can do every time you use the psychic projection exploit? Must say that's pretty impressive, no wonder you think Sages are OP.

Edited April 3, 2012 by DuSStyBottoms

[SoonerJBD]

What type of gear are you in? I've been PVP'ing heavily since beta and I've never taken someone from 15k to 0 health in 4 GCD. Is this something you can do every time you use the psychic projection exploit? Must say that's pretty impressive, no wonder you think Sages are OP.

 

I haven't PvP'd enough to tell you how often it happens, but it is possible when the stars align, and I've seen it done in a PvP setting. It happens a lot more in PvE where the other guy isn't popping cooldowns or interrupting you.

 

I think 10k in just under 5 seconds is more realistic and common. If you've got two DoTs up and you use the PP double-dip followed by a crit FiB, that's 10k damage in under three seconds. One GCD later, follow that with instant-cast TK Wave or project and you get 2K more plus the additional DoT damage. Unmitigated, you are looking at 15K. With crit damage or popping adrenals, it could go higher than that.

 

The key here is that TK Throw doesn't cause a GCD. So when you double-dip a PP proc, you get that 6k damage in 2.7 seconds and can cast another instant spell before your first GCD. Even if you just look at those three casts, factoring in mitigation you are probably doing 8k or more damage in less than three seconds.

[DuSStyBottoms]

I haven't PvP'd enough to tell you how often it happens, but it is possible when the stars align, and I've seen it done in a PvP setting. It happens a lot more in PvE where the other guy isn't popping cooldowns or interrupting you.

 

I think 10k in just under 5 seconds is more realistic and common. If you've got two DoTs up and you use the PP double-dip followed by a crit FiB, that's 10k damage in under three seconds. One GCD later, follow that with instant-cast TK Wave or project and you get 2K more plus the additional DoT damage. Unmitigated, you are looking at 15K. With crit damage or popping adrenals, it could go higher than that.

 

The key here is that TK Throw doesn't cause a GCD. So when you double-dip a PP proc, you get that 6k damage in 2.7 seconds and can cast another instant spell before your first GCD. Even if you just look at those three casts, factoring in mitigation you are probably doing 8k or more damage in less than three seconds.

 

You didn't answer my question as to what type of gear you use.. I'm going to assume by your first sentence that you don't PVP. In other words you're throwing down these massive numbers in Rakata gear?

 

There's one major flaw in your argument and by you not PVP'ing you're oblivious to it. You used the word UNMITIGATED. Everything we cast except FIB and MC is mitigated heavily by armor.

 

You're living in a fairy tale world of theoretical numbers where every opponent is naked. You can't just come on here and add up tool tip numbers to justify your claims because in real, high level, battlemaster PVP it isn't like that at all.

Edited April 3, 2012 by DuSStyBottoms

[SoonerJBD]

You didn't answer my question as to what type of gear you use.. I'm going to assume by your first sentence that you don't PVP. In other words you're throwing down these massive numbers in Rakata gear?

 

There's one major flaw in your argument and by you not PVP'ing you're oblivious to it. You used the word UNMITIGATED. Everything we cast except FIB and MC is mitigated heavily by armor.

 

You're living in a fairy tale world of theoretical numbers where every opponent is naked. You can't just come on here and add up tool tip numbers to justify your claims because in real, high level, battlemaster PVP it isn't like that at all.

 

I didn't say I don't PvP. I said I don't primarily PvP. I'm not just adding up tool tip numbers. If I were doing that, the numbers would be much higher.

 

I gave you what the numbers would be unmitigated and then explained what they might look like unmitigated. You tell me... Two double-speed TK throws followed by FiB and a instant-cast TK Wave or Project, with both Mind Crush and Weaken Mind running. What do you think your damage would look like over those 5 seconds?

 

Unmitigated, you are looking at 15k. With an adrenal, with crit damage added in, even more than that. So, yes, the reason I used the word unmitigated was to allow that actual damage done in a PvP setting would be lower than 16 or 17k. But you are certainly looking at 10k or more damage in that scenario. Somewhere in the 10-15k realm is likely. It's certainly at least 10k. You argue we can't burst. Regardless of how optimistic or pessimistic you want to be with the numbers, that kind of damage in less than 5 seconds is pretty good.

 

You keep arguing we have no burst. My only point with this is that 10-15k damage in less than five seconds is burst. Even if you are looking at PP with one instant following and no DoTs, 6k-plus damage in less than 3 seconds is burst.

[DuSStyBottoms]

I didn't say I don't PvP. I said I don't primarily PvP. I'm not just adding up tool tip numbers. If I were doing that, the numbers would be much higher.

 

I gave you what the numbers would be unmitigated and then explained what they might look like unmitigated. You tell me... Two double-speed TK throws followed by FiB and a instant-cast TK Wave or Project, with both Mind Crush and Weaken Mind running. What do you think your damage would look like over those 5 seconds?

 

Unmitigated, you are looking at 15k. With an adrenal, with crit damage added in, even more than that. So, yes, the reason I used the word unmitigated was to allow that actual damage done in a PvP setting would be lower than 16 or 17k. But you are certainly looking at 10k or more damage in that scenario. Somewhere in the 10-15k realm is likely. It's certainly at least 10k. You argue we can't burst. Regardless of how optimistic or pessimistic you want to be with the numbers, that kind of damage in less than 5 seconds is pretty good.

 

You keep arguing we have no burst. My only point with this is that 10-15k damage in less than five seconds is burst. Even if you are looking at PP with one instant following and no DoTs, 6k-plus damage in less than 3 seconds is burst.

 

Dude you keep throwing out these numbers that aren't real. You aren't going to crit every tick of TKT followed by a crit FIB and a crit TKW while MC crits in the background. It will never work like that unless you have 100% crit in your PVE gear. If we could actually do 15k damage in 5 seconds I wouldn't be here typing this message to you.

 

Once again I've never said that we have no burst. I've said we have lower burst than every other class and this nerf hurts our burst damage badly.

 

For the third time, what gear set are you using?

Edited April 4, 2012 by DuSStyBottoms

[SoonerJBD]

Dude you keep throwing out these numbers that aren't real. You aren't going to crit every tick of TKT followed by a crit FIB and a crit TKW while MC crits in the background. It will never work like that unless you have 100% crit in your PVE gear. If we could actually do 15k damage in 5 seconds I wouldn't be here typing this message to you.

 

Once again I've never said that we have no burst. I've said we have lower burst than every other class and this nerf hurts our burst damage badly.

 

For the third time, what gear set are you using?

 

Mostly Rakata, but again, you aren't following what I'm saying. The numbers I'm using don't require anything close to that much crit. And with Rakata gear mixed with BM gear they are entirely possible, and I've seen more than 10k damage done by a DPS Sage in five seconds on numerous occasions. 15k was a ceiling I was using based on unmitigated damage.

 

You can get two TK throws, one TK Wave and one FiB off in less than five seconds when your procs line up. Assuming you have your two DoTs up, these are the numbers we are looking at.

 

Starting out with unmitigated numbers.

- TK Throw is going to do 3,000-plus damage for you with no crit whatsoever. So two of those do 6,000 and change. Certainly 7,000 if you get some crit damage.

- FiB is going to do around 2,000 with no crit, 3,000-plus with crit.

- PoM TK Wave is in the 2,200 range with no crit, 3,500 with crit.

- Five ticks of Mind Crush are going to do 1,800 or so damage with no crit. Up to 2,000 or so with some crit involved.

- Five ticks of Weaken Mind will do 800 damage with no crit. Up to 1,000 with some crit.

Add that up: 12,800k unmitigated with no crit damage. Certainly 14,500 with some crit involved. Pop your relic or adrenal at the start and that goes to 16k or more.

 

Now, clearly some of that damage will be mitigated by armor, but you can't tell me that 10k is not a reasonable expectation for the amount of damage you can do if that all lines up.

 

And again, if you don't think my numbers add up, give me some of your own. Tell me how much damage you would do in your gear with two TK Throws, FiB, PoM TK Wave, five ticks of Mind Crush and five ticks of Weaken Mind. It is certainly enough to qualify as burst.

 

The silly part here is that all of this is beside the point.

 

My complaint with your original statement always was and continues to be that you refuse to add in damage from DoTs when considering burst. But that is the whole premise upon which our burst damage is based. We rely on DoTs not only for damage but for our best proc. When that ramps up, we get short periods of doing really great damage as in the example I have tried to give.

 

If you want one ability that gives you 6k crits, roll another toon. But don't tell me that our best damage doesn't qualify as burst because you have to cast DoTs on the front end. The end result is the same.

[DuSStyBottoms]

Mostly Rakata, but again, you aren't following what I'm saying. The numbers I'm using don't require anything close to that much crit. And with Rakata gear mixed with BM gear they are entirely possible, and I've seen more than 10k damage done by a DPS Sage in five seconds on numerous occasions. 15k was a ceiling I was using based on unmitigated damage.

 

The reason I ask is because you argue as if this is all your personal experience and I can tell you 100% if you're mostly in Rakata you're not doing anywhere near this type of DPS in PVP. What streams are you watching?

 

You can get two TK throws, one TK Wave and one FiB off in less than five seconds when your procs line up. Assuming you have your two DoTs up, these are the numbers we are looking at.

 

Starting out with unmitigated numbers.

- TK Throw is going to do 3,000-plus damage for you with no crit whatsoever. So two of those do 6,000 and change. Certainly 7,000 if you get some crit damage.

- FiB is going to do around 2,000 with no crit, 3,000-plus with crit.

- PoM TK Wave is in the 2,200 range with no crit, 3,500 with crit.

- Five ticks of Mind Crush are going to do 1,800 or so damage with no crit. Up to 2,000 or so with some crit involved.

- Five ticks of Weaken Mind will do 800 damage with no crit. Up to 1,000 with some crit.

Add that up: 12,800k unmitigated with no crit damage. Certainly 14,500 with some crit involved. Pop your relic or adrenal at the start and that goes to 16k or more.

 

Now, clearly some of that damage will be mitigated by armor, but you can't tell me that 10k is not a reasonable expectation for the amount of damage you can do if that all lines up.

 

And again, if you don't think my numbers add up, give me some of your own. Tell me how much damage you would do in your gear with two TK Throws, FiB, PoM TK Wave, five ticks of Mind Crush and five ticks of Weaken Mind. It is certainly enough to qualify as burst.

 

First off you aren't getting 5 ticks of Weaken Mind, you're getting 1 in your theoretical 5 seconds of 15k. Secondly I don't think you understand how much our damage gets mitigated at higher levels. I dueled a friend who is a level 50 Sentinel to get these numbers. Medium Armor, full Battle Master.

 

-TKT- Tick 400-800 with it. If I don't get a crit thats 1600 damage vs your guaranteed 3k.

-FIB- 1100-2400

-TKW-1100-2100

-MC- 500-1000 initial, 200 tick.

 

Your numbers seem to be when you're attacking a brand new 50 fresh out of the 10-49 bracket. If that's the case then TKT will tick for 1500, FIB will crit for 3800, TKW will crit for 4500 and MC will do about 4k damage. That's not my argument though. I'm talking about rated warzones, best of the best.

 

While we're talking about your massive damage numbers make sure to reply to this thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=389850 and let them know you're doing more damage with 2 dots and 3 gcd's than his entire arsenal combined.

 

The silly part here is that all of this is beside the point.

 

My complaint with your original statement always was and continues to be that you refuse to add in damage from DoTs when considering burst. But that is the whole premise upon which our burst damage is based. We rely on DoTs not only for damage but for our best proc. When that ramps up, we get short periods of doing really great damage as in the example I have tried to give.

 

If you want one ability that gives you 6k crits, roll another toon. But don't tell me that our best damage doesn't qualify as burst because you have to cast DoTs on the front end. The end result is the same.

 

The silly part is that you care about what someone defines as burst. You'd rather argue with me about that than support what I've been saying and judging by your recent post regarding Disturbance, you do.

 

The reason I don't consider our DoTs "Burst" damage is because one of them ticks once every 4 seconds and another that ticks for 200-300 5 times over 6 seconds. It's not burst. If we had a dot ticking for 800 every second for 4 seconds I would say okay you're right. We don't though.

 

But you're right it is beside the point. The point is our burst damage is low in comparison and it's only getting worse in 1.2. I've said this all along. Those are the facts.

Edited April 4, 2012 by DuSStyBottoms

[kenbenobi]

"The point is our burst damage is low in comparison and it's only getting worse in 1.2. I've said this all along. Those are the facts."

 

I could not agree more with you. If the enemy has some semigood pvp gear sages damage is not really that great.

[SoonerJBD]

I just tend to fall somewhere between the "sky is falling" crowd and the "all is well, quit crying about it" line of reasoning.

 

The nerf is certainly a nerf, and I would prefer the devs buff the damage of disturbance if they are going to remove the ability to cast instant-TK waves with PoM. I just don't agree with those who think our class is now somehow useless.

[Tyrias]

I just tend to fall somewhere between the "sky is falling" crowd and the "all is well, quit crying about it" line of reasoning.

 

The nerf is certainly a nerf, and I would prefer the devs buff the damage of disturbance if they are going to remove the ability to cast instant-TK waves with PoM. I just don't agree with those who think our class is now somehow useless.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't say we're useless, but we're left without a particularly strong spec for PvP. While that in itself is fine as an individual issue, and could even be called balance (all specs being fairly equal), it isn't good when certain specs in other classes are clearly "very strong" compared to others they may choose.

 

Hybrid allowed us to use the CC that our class is capable of (which seems to have supposed to have been our survivability tool, in lieu of cooldowns that other classes get) while still being able to put out some reasonable mobile DPS. Telekinetic builds are too "Turrety" to make use of their CC advantage to any great degree, and Balance builds doesn't have much of the CC to make the best use of the limited (but better than TK) mobility it does have.

 

Unless the intention is that Sages shouldn't win a 1 vs 1 against any class in Rated WZs (given a decent level of Gearing and skill on both sides), I don't think they've got it quite balanced yet and am left hoping that "something" happens in the future, whether it be some buffs to 31pt DPS skills to make them worthwhile, or nerfs to other classes "stronger than average" specs.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Tyrias

[shagatha]

The nerf is certainly a nerf, and I would prefer the devs buff the damage of disturbance if they are going to remove the ability to cast instant-TK waves with PoM. I just don't agree with those who think our class is now somehow useless.

This! Instead of all this gloom and doom we should start thinking about 1.2 builds that are viable(or as close to viable as possible).

 

Telekinetic builds are too "Turrety" to make use of their CC advantage to any great degree, and Balance builds doesn't have much of the CC to make the best use of the limited (but better than TK) mobility it does have.

I feel this "Turrety" being balance tree as well. Most of your casts are telekinetic throws and it's turret spell as well. Telekinetic tree can produce insta-cast telekinetic wave. How short induction(less turret) for disturbance can you make with alacrity?

 

I don't see this nerf being THAT bad as people are making it out to be but then again I'm new with sages(have sorc 38(just got instachain) and sage 29(leveling her primarily atm)).

Edited April 5, 2012 by shagatha

[SoonerJBD]

The problem is that Disturbance is just so useless. If they would slightly buff the damage, especially to make it worth casting on PoM procs, I think it would solve both the balance issue with PoM (clearly the splash damage from PoM TK Waves was the issue) while still giving us a single-target skill worth using. It would still be better to use PoM on Mind Crush, but you'd have something to do with those PoM procs for the 15 seconds Mind Crush is on cooldown.