Tiresias Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Perhaps it has been stated already, but I'd like to be the Devil's advocate here: Give me one well-written, fact-based argument proving that gear-imbalanced performance improves the quality of a PvP system. When crafting this argument you would be expected to look past the "progression argument", the "time invested" argument, and the "coordinated groups" argument. Simply approach it from the point of purity: two individuals or two groups encounter each other over an objective (which can be as complex as winning a warzone or as simple as annihilating the opposition). I postulate that the best encounter -- and by "best" I mean "most fun", "most challenging", and "most fulfilling"; all terms that are subjective yet well-understood by MMO players -- is had when the only one differentiating variable is applied: player skill. Of course it is impossible to have a purely skill-based encounter in an MMO due to the nature of class disparity. Even in a "classless" MMO limitations on character skills usually result in a skewed encounter. Don't waste time with this point; it is well-understood and generally accepted that class balance is an ongoing pursuit and there are some tasks for which some classes will simply excel at as compared to others. The easiest differentiating variables to control are the character's statistics. It is from this fact that I argue my hypothesis of the "best encounter". I have never received a good counter-argument to the notion of controlled PvP environments operating on a level playing field on as many factors that can feasibly be controlled with player skill being the only exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisAquilus Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) However, the issue on display here is that people complain that gear progression has been made faster and easier, and their arguments against it are just as self entitled as the arguments that exist for it, moreso even. I disagree. The common usage definition of "entitled" these days as I understand it is feeling you have a right to something, that you very likely havn't earned. The people with the gear now have definitely earned it legitimately, outside of a few rare circumstances. I know people talk about kill trading on ilum or whatever, but I'm fairly sure thats a moral panic kind of deal, because I havn't seen the slightest shred of evidence for it on my server. In the end, they actually make more sense than you, because you *also* snicker about killing the noobs by the score once they poke their falsely aquired nose protectors into the 50 bracket. By your own admission you would and could do that whether they have the same gear as you or not, and that invalidates any claim you could make as to them having an easier time. They'll still die to your mad skills, they'll just look as silly as you while you kill them. (Because let's face it, top tier PvP gear is sort of lacking in style for the most part) I don't snicker about anyone, and actually make a point of trying to be welcoming to new players to pvp. I remember that everyone has to start somewhere, and a month or two ago it was me in the oranges in the 50 pvp bracket. I understand this attitude is far from universal among pvpers, but you shouldn't generalize like that. Your point would be more reasonable, if all the armor was to players was a stat buff, but it isn't. I quite like the agent armor aesthetically, and its a reminder of what I accomplished. I actually bought battlemaster armor pieces first rather than weapons, simply for aesthetic reasons. This situation is not very different than if you saved up money for a really long time to buy a cool expensive car you'd always liked, and then a week later the price was reduced threefold... or people started giving them away for free. Of course you're going to be frustrated. I postulate that the best encounter -- and by "best" I mean "most fun", "most challenging", and "most fulfilling"; all terms that are subjective yet well-understood by MMO players -- is had when the only one differentiating variable is applied: player skill. If that was the case, people simply wouldn't play most modern mmos. There are many, many games out there where player skill is the only determining factor in player versus player combat. Many FPSes for example used to run on that premise, though less do these days because they've realized the value of giving players a sense of progression. In the very short term, you might be correct that the perfectly level playing field might provide the most fun, but in the long term, progression based games win out, and that is precisely why the market has moved in favor of progression based multiplayer games. Call of Duty, Team Fortress, Battlefield etc. You can find examples of it everywhere. Edited March 24, 2012 by CanisAquilus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrovak Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Perhaps it has been stated already, but I'd like to be the Devil's advocate here: Give me one well-written, fact-based argument proving that gear-imbalanced performance improves the quality of a PvP system. . how about a simple no? I have 9 days on my sub, I made my peace with it I wished they had a disclaimer on the box that it wasnt an MMO and a warnjng about the srs ******* who want free stuff. But ultimately its not why I canceled my sub this game is too ezymode for me to tier PvP armour in 10 days, rank 60 in 3 days afer dinging 50. I just can't understand why ppl get upset about equal gear in this game. Aion goes free to play the 14th I am going there RVR OwPvP battleground Hardcore players sieging gear progression skilled Pvper NO MTV crew demanding free stuff enjoy ypur subpar game and terribads in your comunity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PloGreen Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 ohhh, bolster at 50 Thanks for bringing that to my attention so I Can cast my vote in favor it doing that. And here is why: PVP should be about SKILL, COMPETITION, and TEAMWORK. all the kiddies want mad pvp lutez so they can faceroll anyone they come across. They (the kiddies) are not interested in skill, competition or teamwork they just wanna pwn n00bz and who off their gear so everyone knows how great they are. If people outgear others its because they have put the time in. "PVP should be about SKILL, COMPETITION, and TEAMWORK." - er newsflash it is. Its just that there is progression involved. When everyone has the same gear, which is the aim of progression then that is all it is about. These self-entitled lazy types are killing the game, everyone who plays this game as it is meant to be is getting pissed off because everything they achieve is being dumbed down for others to get easily because they are lazy. Its as simple as that. If you "have no time to put the effort in" (and im not even talking about a great deal of time) then maybe, just maybe you should not play mmos, because by their very nature they are time-sinks. I wish Bioware would take a different approach and make their game challenging, and those that wish to excel will, they would have a better game for it. Basically they are teaching a generation of kids that if you cry long and hard enough you get what you want - and im sorry no matter how that looks this is what I have seen in the first 3 months of the game. Im just being honest. Its disheartening for people that play the game on its merits, and feedback of course is invaluable but so much of these "issues" lie simply with the player and not the devs but Bioware seem compelled to change the game because they are running a business. The only problem is I cannot see the game rivaling wow with that approach. You are robbing Peter to please Paul. Long-term it's not good for the game and its not good for the community either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrovak Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 If people outgear others its because they have put the time in. "PVP should be about SKILL, COMPETITION, and TEAMWORK." - er newsflash it is. Its just that there is progression involved. When everyone has the same gear, which is the aim of progression then that is all it is about. These self-entitled lazy types are killing the game, everyone who plays this game as it is meant to be is getting pissed off because everything they achieve is being dumbed down for others to get easily because they are lazy. Its as simple as that. If you "have no time to put the effort in" (and im not even talking about a great deal of time) then maybe, just maybe you should not play mmos, because by their very nature they are time-sinks. I wish Bioware would take a different approach and make their game challenging, and those that wish to excel will, they would have a better game for it. Basically they are teaching a generation of kids that if you cry long and hard enough you get what you want - and im sorry no matter how that looks this is what I have seen in the first 3 months of the game. Im just being honest. Its disheartening for people that play the game on its merits, and feedback of course is invaluable but so much of these "issues" lie simply with the player and not the devs but Bioware seem compelled to change the game because they are running a business. The only problem is I cannot see the game rivaling wow with that approach. You are robbing Peter to please Paul. Long-term it's not good for the game and its not good for the community either. We lost its over from 1.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carbonated Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 This guy gets it! I dont. I'm not sure why some random is taking a non dev post so serious? did random people off the street all of a sudden get power over this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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