PVP Healing in 1.2

[Saint-Exupery]

I am sorry but the sage/trooper healers on lord calypho want a word with you these guys on the rep side are unstoppable and its the way they combine their pre mades and props to them they know how strong that combination is and are using the op healing mechanics to great effect so dry your eyes easy mode has finished for you well done GZ and BW:p

 

 

1) class are mirrored (as much as BW bad design allow it. E.g. animations). So, if you are getting owned, well, look at your team, there must be some noobs around

 

2) BW is allowing pre-mades. It is part of the game which I dont agree with. If you want a pre-made, only allow it in ranked pvp now that is an options

 

3) By OP healing mechanic are you referring to a bug? if that's the case, fix the bug.

[zacger]

What I have noticed is little actual discussion of PvP on the beta test in here. And I think that with rated BGs coming stratagies will evolve very quickly once we go live. As a result I think it's nearly impossible to say one way or another the effectiveness of healing.

 

What I came here to say is this though. Competitive PvP is going to likely highlight areas of the game system (class/skill combinations) that will be OP that were otherwise unknown. My great concern is that the Devs will have to make a choice between balancing PvP vs PvE which is why I really wish they had taken the next step in the Trauma school of thought, completely seperate the coefficients and damage values of abilities in PvP and PvE. That way they could balance one without adversely affecting the other.

 

After reading nearly all 5 pages of this thread I have to say some great discussion on the first page or two but that it's pretty much degraded into nothing and on the verg of people just flaming each other. A shame but pretty typical of most threads past the 2nd or 3rd page mark.

[skotish]

Sorry same results the combination bc of lack of numbers on the rep side denotes the reps roll this all the time and even when the imps have pre mades there the rep combination of sages/troopers with the odd scoundrel is just a better Ac pre made set, I admire them actually hate playing against them but admire them they make the game look easy i hope in your case when the ranked comes the nerf aint so hard on you but as a solo pvp it can come fast enough for me

[TheEvilEeyore]

What I have noticed is little actual discussion of PvP on the beta test in here. And I think that with rated BGs coming stratagies will evolve very quickly once we go live. As a result I think it's nearly impossible to say one way or another the effectiveness of healing.

 

What I came here to say is this though. Competitive PvP is going to likely highlight areas of the game system (class/skill combinations) that will be OP that were otherwise unknown. My great concern is that the Devs will have to make a choice between balancing PvP vs PvE which is why I really wish they had taken the next step in the Trauma school of thought, completely seperate the coefficients and damage values of abilities in PvP and PvE. That way they could balance one without adversely affecting the other.

 

After reading nearly all 5 pages of this thread I have to say some great discussion on the first page or two but that it's pretty much degraded into nothing and on the verg of people just flaming each other. A shame but pretty typical of most threads past the 2nd or 3rd page mark.

 

I agree with much of what you have said and have been spending the last 3 pages of this post trying to enlighten the people that obviously did not read the first 3 pages of the post as to what the discussion is actually about. however i am relatively certain that anyone posting in this thread that is NOT a sorc/sage healer that play at a BM level really don't understand how badly these changes are going to affect the class in highend pvp. that is my point and that is why i want some answers from bioware but as of yet they have not tendered any meaningful responses.

 

I originally misread your post and i have to say. Judging by the play that i am currently experiencing almost 100% huttball due to the fact that my server is baout 95% republics now. just from the changes listed in the pts patch notes from a purely PVP perspective it will not be pretty. sorcs are already by far the most squishy healers out there and we are becoming immensely more squishy with the new changes. that is why i wanted to have some clarification from bioware.. but fom the looks of things they have given little to no thought to pvp with their changes.

Edited March 24, 2012 by TheEvilEeyore

[TheEvilEeyore]

Sorry same results the combination bc of lack of numbers on the rep side denotes the reps roll this all the time and even when the imps have pre mades there the rep combination of sages/troopers with the odd scoundrel is just a better Ac pre made set, I admire them actually hate playing against them but admire them they make the game look easy i hope in your case when the ranked comes the nerf aint so hard on you but as a solo pvp it can come fast enough for me

 

So your argument is they should change the game in favor of the 1 instead of the many... spock would not approve

 

I do understand what you are saying but you go ahead and ask a sorc/sage on your faciton side how easy it is to heal with 2-3 dps tunneling him. then tell him he can't use his biggest heal anymore. and he has to take 3k hits if he wants to keep helaing himself. then come back here and tell me what he says to you..

Edited March 24, 2012 by TheEvilEeyore

[Amshaa]

Um i am sorry. this is NOT a PVE healing discussion and saying that healers are currently "too good" in pvp is an asinine comment. the BIGGEST the difference between how much damage any dps can put out single target and what someone can heal single target is just mind boggling. now you take into consideration that said healer is being trained with as much interrupts as this game has? ... pvp is broke as of 1.2 and they are releasing rated wz's.

 

also i have little to no faith in anything that this "george" character says.

 

I feel sorry to teach you that, and it sure gonna be rude, but PvP healing is not just spamming one or two skills to give back some health. Move around, get out of reach before casting and life will be easier. As a sorc, you sure got plenty of crowd controls to avoid damages.

 

For sure, class balance means you're no god. You can't be the only healer of a group and keep everyone alive.

 

This is PvP, you get focused because you're a healer, not just because your dress looks pretty. If you want to win a fight, kill the healer first...obvious rule isn't it ?

 

Just for the exemple, let's put two healers on a point of Alderaan's WZ, full BM geared, and send them 4 full BM geared dps. If those healers are smart, they will die on overheated or oof, not on dps powerness and it will take some precious time. This is not proper class balance. Face it or question yourself, please.

 

WZ and most specificly ranked WZ are a matter of team work, not a matter of "me against the world"... Considering this, I assume healing is a bit too strong at the moment... Not drastically, there's no real breaking class balance, but healing 5 or 10% less won't change the face of PvP in SW:TOR. At least for what I know : Merc bodyguard.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Amshaa

[face_hindu]

I feel sorry to teach you that, and it sure gonna be rude, but PvP healing is not just spamming one or two skills to give back some health. Move around, get out of reach before casting and life will be easier. As a sorc, you sure got plenty of crowd controls to avoid damages.

 

No offense, but this makes you sound arrogant (and a bit ignorant). BM Sages/Sorcs on my server don't just stand in the fire and spam a heal. You move, you can keep yourself alive a bit longer, until you get jumped and rooted. Movement doesn't count for beans in that case (also, once you're > 15m away from your tank, you die).

 

Just for the exemple, let's put two healers on a point of Alderaan's WZ, full BM geared, and send them 4 full BM geared dps. If those healers are smart, they will die on overheated or oof, not on dps powerness and it will take some precious time. This is not proper class balance. Face it or question yourself, please.

 

4 dps vs. 2 sage/sorcs, and the sage/sorcs go OOM? Even on Live? You have no clue what you're talking about. In fact, why am I even responding to you....

[Healful]

this really doesn't deserve a comment but i will venture it anyways... i have been healing competitively in pvp environment for a LONG time. so i can assure you that skill has little to do with the fact that 1-2 dps can train a healer and interrupt every cast he tries and kill him well before his resolve bar ever hits 100%.

 

so please enlighten me on how you stay alive vs. 2 fully battlemaster dps sticking to you like glue. i am all ears.

 

Are you not suppose to die? You may be confused. Two coordinated DPS should kill you... On top of that you should feel good because you now know that while you occupy two DPS that your team now has a 7-6 advantage.

 

Try harder, I bet you can get 3 people focused on you.

[croza]

I am not sure whether I got this correct..

 

But, you mean that you want to survive when 2-3 well geared PVPer all hitting at you?

[Amshaa]

No offense, but this makes you sound arrogant (and a bit ignorant). BM Sages/Sorcs on my server don't just stand in the fire and spam a heal. You move, you can keep yourself alive a bit longer, until you get jumped and rooted. Movement doesn't count for beans in that case (also, once you're > 15m away from your tank, you die).

It is arrogant, and maid on purpose. Surely not the best way to answer to someone only considering his way to play/class played, but was mine at the moment. I first gave my point of view of 1.2 PvP healing from a Merc bodyguard, because it is entitled "PvP Healing in 1.2". I'm still assuming Merc/Commando healers are a bit too strong in PvP healing at 1.1.5.

 

 

 

4 dps vs. 2 sage/sorcs, and the sage/sorcs go OOM? Even on Live? You have no clue what you're talking about. In fact, why am I even responding to you....

Then again, I prefer talking about what I know, Merc bodyguard, and what I actually seen. So, yep, on live I've been playin' with sorc/sage going oof when bursting heal and massively crowd controling. Then, for this exemple, 2 sage/sorcs will die fast and easy if not trying to control opponents. But, as i'd rather talk about what I plenty know, just put 2 Merc/Commando healers in the same situation, even if it also works with 1 Merc/Commando 1 sage/sorc, and see how is it going.

Fact is, I did went through this situation on live, more than once.

 

As soon as it'll be obvious that we don't speak about same classes, which means different points of view, we'll be able to understand eachother.

 

I am not sure whether I got this correct..

 

But, you mean that you want to survive when 2-3 well geared PVPer all hitting at you?

I mean 1vs1 should be an "endless" but intense fight, as a healer. Fighting more than 1 opponent should mean a quick death, which is, again considering Merc/Commando healers, not always happening on live.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Amshaa

[Dafroog]

We aren't now (especially the bugged healing spec), but if all these changes go through we most definitely will be.

 

 

You do know these changes have been tested and sorcs are still the srongest healers in the game right now even with all the nerfs and the fact that ops got buffed, they still out heal both ops/scoundrels and mercs/commandos, just saying

[Pirateyoshi]

You know, a lot of PVP healers are getting really entitled to how much power they should hold over the match. I am a Merc Healer, and I personally have accepted the nerfs as far as they affect PVP. Everyone and their mom is making this scenario where we are by ourselves, have to heal 3-4 people, and be focused/interrupted by 2-3 people. Let me tell you, that is working as intended.

 

When Ranked WZ's come in, and you see 8 man premades, healers will be protected. If you are really having a problem with kiting/pushbacking some dps when you have someone guarding you, and the team stunning/interrupting just as much as the other team is, I dont see the validity in your complaints. Our role is special, and healing comes in many forms. Damage mitigation, doing damage/CC when needed, and simply distracting DPS from their objectives all implicitly keep the team alive. The reason these nerfs make sense in a PVP environment, and I am sorry if the healers here are forever alone, is that a well protected healer is immortal. I know some pugs can be baddies and not see, for example, a sorc healer force running away from a mob and not intercept the healing-killers, but that is not what we should be basing any balance on.

 

On the other hand, it is quite clear to me when there just happens to be more than 1 healer on the opposing team's Voidstar/Civil War, the game gets exceedingly harder to win, and this difficulty level has a direct correlation with average skill level. I wholeheartedly believe balance should be determined based on "perfect" play, because everyone who is just average or mediocre is affected less by buffs/nerfs, and skill will always be the deciding factor in a fight.

 

I come from a Fighting Game background, where the knowledgeable get seperated easily from the scrubs, and even when we have ridiculously overpowered or weak characters, we concern ourselves with fundamentals over whatever cute things our class can/cant do. Sure, it may be as easy as to say I should Energy Shield when I have full Resolve, and either I can (1)top myself off, (2)distract 3-4 people for a good 6-13 seconds, or go back to healing the team on the case people realize that options 1/2 are a net loss for them.

 

So, to recap, I think the skill of your whole team matters when you are a VIP, especially after the 1.2 nerfs. Good DPS focus on healers, Great DPS focus on healer-killers. Its time to seperate the baddies from the pros, and while I agree its discomforting to get nerfed, everyone who is pretending heat management was hard in PVP (merc perspective) is a damn liar/scrub, or did not spec into 16 extra vent heat/dont use power surge+thermal sensor override effectively.

 

 

Just so I don't seem open to a deeper analysis, I would like to hear how, despite their squishiness, sorcs have a problem getting away from focusers. Mercs tend to handle the situation head on, or by kiting in hopes DPS/Tanks tag their pursuers. We all can't be Ops who can instant heal themselves all day while kiting, so we have our own methods of dealing with the chase (CC, energy shield or Bubble/Slow/Speed/Stun) that balance out our better healing throughput.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Pirateyoshi

[emartell]

I'm interested to see how this will flesh out.

 

In general, at least on my server, even the full BM geared folks are crap players. I rarely go up against a team who focuses on the healer and I PUG. There might be one or two premades that I have trouble with.

 

So being the "lesser" healer of healer pool and also under geared (full 5 champ but all random slots are cent), a ranked warzones will be interesting.

 

I rarely have issues with being picked off by the stealther or anyone in a 1x1 situation. Hutt ball is a toss up because it's a FFA and the LOS obstacles arent as useable like in VS, but I generally get lower numbers in Hutt ball anyways

 

I think the bonus of an 8 man premade will be the ability for a devoted guard for the healers. I find it hard in PUGs to call for a healer taking damage. It will almost become a PvE situation. Tanks and healers will be a priority on who to keep up and DPS will die and reset.

 

It going to have less to do with everyone's personal roles and push a team. If everyone focuses and assists the tank to cut thru the opponent, then it's a quick game and healers should have theoretically less work because you don't have to heal multiple targets.

[Pirateyoshi]

I think the bonus of an 8 man premade will be the ability for a devoted guard for the healers. I find it hard in PUGs to call for a healer taking damage. It will almost become a PvE situation. Tanks and healers will be a priority on who to keep up and DPS will die and reset.

 

It going to have less to do with everyone's personal roles and push a team. If everyone focuses and assists the tank to cut thru the opponent, then it's a quick game and healers should have theoretically less work because you don't have to heal multiple targets.

 

Thank you for having some common sense as well.

[emartell]

Thank you for having some common sense as well.

 

I must have missed your post in my read thru. But I agree.

 

The real issue will be folks who have never played a good PvE group learning to play. It's not a raid situation where the mobs all react the same every run. So I think those people whos idea of "PvE" is a read thru and Zergfest are going to have some adaptation Issues.

 

For me its going to have more of a classic EQ PvE situation where the roles are defined and it's easier to deal with a dynamic enviorment. It doesn't matter how many mobs. CC does CC. Off tanks handle the "adds" and healer has some support.

 

The fact everyone has a CC and break will be interesting tho.

Edited March 25, 2012 by emartell

[Dafroog]

I dont see how the changes would be worse for pvp tbh as pvp is going up against a team of other players who have been hit with the exact same class changes as everyone else.

 

All the changes mean in pvp is it will be a little harder to keep people alive without proper teamwork, that doesnt make pvp unbalanced and its not like rated teams arent going to want healers, because a nerfed healer is still far better than no healer at all

[ebado]

so please enlighten me on how you stay alive vs. 2 fully battlemaster dps sticking to you like glue. i am all ears.

 

Why aren't your teammates peeling?

 

Where's the guard and taunts?

Edited March 25, 2012 by ebado

[Jahor]

for PvP, where Sorc / Sage already are the squishiest class."

Stop posting this lie and play a Merc or Scond to know what "squishiest" mean.

 

no CD Bubble + no CD Sprint + 10000 CC == NOT squishy!

 

And NO, light armor means nothing as most damage is elementel anyway which ignores even heavy armor. But Sorc/Sage do have a 20% elementel resitence buff which Merc+Scond do not have!

 

If you get killed as Sorc/Sage you do something terrible wrong!

[Gaskul]

The game still needs to be enjoyable to play and now many can honestly sit there and say it would be enjoyable to be killed every 20 to 30 seconds. Then wait behind a door to run out through out 7 bubbles die and wait to respawn again? if it is not enjoyable to play why would they continue to play. We will see how it works but DPS always cries healer nerf because they want more pew pew. And Sages healers do not have massive CC we have 2 lift and stun. and our lift is not instant do not combine other sage builds all into the healing build.

[MarineGruntt]

I'm getting really sick and tired of the attitude towards healers in this game. I'm sorry to all you pew pews but I'm going to rage at you for a bit. I will also be doing many generalizations as it is not every DPS that is like this, but from what I have seen, many of you are arrogant ******es. You run around trying to kill everything and brag about your high DPS/Crit paying no attention to the fact that those green numbers floating above your head kept you alive long enough to do so. You come in here and tell us that 'oh but all healers are getting nerfed on both sides, it will be same/same'. This is not what we are mad about, we are mad that they are making it so that our already thankless job is harder/less interesting/less fun. We don't get to run around and pew pew stuff. We run around sweating our heads off trying to keep everyone alive only to get yelled at by some douchebag DPS asking "why'd you let me die? herp derp..."

 

It's hilarious when you come in here and **** all over us healers. We don't do so to you. Whats funny is that you all QQ and want healers to get nerfed when all we want is for YOU to top the DPS in a WZ. Why? Because we healers are like that. We're team players, we want everything to go smoothly and everyone to be happy. We're not solo-junkies or COD-boys who only care about the kill and thrill.

 

So when we get nerfed and the fact that our job becomes almost impossible, we get mad. The OP wanted an explanation from a Dev and YOU come in here, tell us to pretty much shut up and keep healing you when our job is no longer fun or viable. Seriously shut up and don't post in here unless you have something constructive to say. ******** on your healers does you no good and if you piss off your healer, they will stop healing you and you will no longer be Mr. High DPSer because you will spend as much time as they do behind that shiny little wall.

 

I think all ******e DPSers should roll a healer and see the kind of respect we get.

[Awayy]

 

I think all ******e DPSers should roll a healer and see the kind of respect we get.

 

lol

 

At least the pvp community on my server loves me. I could use more peels, but meh.

 

I do hate the direction BW has gone with healing. Restricting us to rotations is not fun.

Wtb by more options and more choices. I want to be able to heal aoe damage through several possible methods. I want to be able to change my style of healing at any moment to fit the needs of the situation. In pvp it's mostly about positioning and knowing how to control your burst healing, but that will be gone for seers. BW should be making healing more dynamic, interesting and less clunky.

 

Seers are called the toolbox healer in this game, but I think its an absurd title when you compare our healing tools to other healers in other mmos.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Awayy

[Deadmanj]

I think the frustration that sages have with healing in pvp after 1.2 comes down to we have nothing that we can do once we put our bubble up.

 

I think some people here have misconceptions on what a sages toolbox is. 10000 CC is obviously an overstatement.

We have a instant stun that lasts for 4 seconds, we have a 2 sec cast stun wich can last for awhile (not exactly sure I never get it off) and we have force wave PBAoE pushback.

We have force run which is on a 30 sec CD and we have a 1 min CD on our get out of stun skill.

 

We have 2 instant casts, which are both on CDS. Our bubble is on a 17 second single target CD (we cannot recast on the same target for 17 seconds) which is about 3k ish

We have an instant hot that heals for about 1k in PvP that is on a 6 second cd.

 

Other than that we have a 1.5 sec cast 1.2k heal and a 2.5 sec cast 2..5-3k heal. We have a 1.5 sec channeled heal that heals for about 700 in pvp. Last but not least is our 2 sec cast AoE which heals for about 400 per sec.

 

 

Right now our 2.5 sec cast heal can be dropped to 1.5 sec if you cast the HoT before hand. There is a BUG that allows us to do this twice in a row. They are removing the cast time reduction as well as fixing the bug.

It is not the fixing of the bug that sage/sorc are griping about. It is the changing of the buff. It makes us a lot more vulnerable to interrupts. It is the HoT/2.5 sec heal combo that allows us some survivability in PvP and when we lose that we will die a lot more.

 

Add to this that interrupt CDs are being lowered in 1.2 and it just makes a healer's life a waste in PvP. Remember there has to be a reason to bring a healer to a rated WZ. If a healer is not worth a dps, they are a liability and a waste of space in PVP.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Deadmanj

[Sinemetu]

I haven't played on the PTS, but as an operative healer who is not BM geared, I don't understand this talk of healers being easy to kill. [Good] Marauders and Assassins can pressure me enough to cut my healing output to almost nothing. Anyone else just gets kited or LOSed. With a good tank, no two players will kill us.

 

An assist train of three or four (good) players is lethal even with a tank, but this is where we get into playing with good teammates. If you have that many players trying to take down one healer, there's not much pressure on the rest of your team. That means another healer can keep you up while the tank(s) rotate taunts. DPS can use knockbacks and other CDs. When you're talking about a team effort to take down a player, you have to expect a team effort to keep that player alive.

 

I'm not talking theoretically here. I've done premade vs premade and this is how it worked. I had a merc and a pt that made it their job to keep me and the sorc alive while we kept everyone healed.

[Endusima]

so please enlighten me on how you stay alive vs. 2 fully battlemaster dps sticking to you like glue. i am all ears.

 

It aint that hard as an operative atleast. If you still think its hard now then wait until the expertise buff in 1.2 kicks in, healing will get easier.

 

 

Expertise increases damage done but also reduces damage taken, so the damage does not actually increase if you match equally geared opponents. The only thing that increases is the healing done which benefits us. I hate to be that guy but it seems like a dose of man-up and l2p would solve most issues.

[Metalmac]

The real change here for the pvp side is resource management. No longer will you be able to sit behind the lines spamming heals and bubbles all day. That's kinda the point we were making about Sorc/Sage heals being too OP. They can literally sit there all day spamming heals and bubbles on themselves and teammates to the point where if there are more than 1 or 2 people who can heal (*note, I said people who can heal, not dedicated healers) it is near impossible to take a single healer down without a coordinated attack of half a team.

 

This really shows up in Voidstar, where healers can set up in the middle around the pillars and basically keep their team alive through very concentrated attacks. Not to mention that their heal spec can still dish out enough internal/elemental damage to be a threat to melee and has utility up the rear to stay alive anyway. Melee is the eternal enemy of healers... right now, all they have to do is stun us, walk away, and heal then they're right back into it with minimal resource loss...

 

Sorc/Sage resource management made them able to heal them AND their team through moderately concentrated attacks with no real threat of running out of resources like the other heal classes do. They can't anymore, and that's the way it should be, since to bring others up to their level, not only do they have to increase healing for the other healers, but then they have to increase DPS so there is still a way to punch through heals, and then, since DPS went up, they then have to rebalance tanks, and it is just a big mess. It is much easier to nerf Sorc/Sage resource management.

 

 

 

This hits the nail on the head as to all the complaites made on the Forums.

 

But watch all the Sorc/Sage ignore it on purpose.