Debunking The Myth About Assassins: One Troll At A Time

[InquisitorJorus]

The only hard part about Deception is trying to find the EW proc in the mess of icons you'll usually have on your buff bar.

 

Completely and totally agree there. It's a real pain.

[verfallen]

The only hard part about Deception is trying to find the EW proc in the mess of icons you'll usually have on your buff bar.

 

 

Play Darkness or a Marauder. In comparison, deception sin is child play since its the only proc you need to watch for and the icon is rather obvious.

[DegStaerian]

While i do agree with ur Post i still think Darkness needs a Nerf concerning PvP. However, i dont think they need a Nerf Damage wise, but in Survivability because, like u said, Survivability is the key to their high overall Damage.

So whats to do without screwing Darkness Spec in PvE?

Since controllable Self Heal on Medium to Short CD with Tanks Specs is always a fizzer, see Blood DK from WoW i'd go and nerf Self Heal from Harnessed Darkness to 1% / tick or even to no heal at all. But therefore Buff Dark Ward's Shield Chance, Duration, Stacks and or Absorbtion from Hollow. Because Block Mechanic is really bad for PvP and alot of Darkness Assas even dont use Shields, their Surv. will drop.

 

so long

Edited March 27, 2012 by DegStaerian

[TheOpf]

While i do agree with ur Post i still think Darkness needs a Nerf concerning PvP. However, i dont think they need a Nerf Damage wise, but in Survivability because, like u said, Survivability is the key to their high overall Damage.

So whats to do without screwing Darkness Spec in PvE?

Since controllable Self Heal on Medium to Short CD with Tanks Specs is always a fizzer, see Blood DK from WoW i'd go and nerf Self Heal from Harnessed Darkness to 1% / tick or even to no heal at all. But therefore Buff Dark Ward's Shield Chance, Duration, Stacks and or Absorbtion from Hollow. Because Block Mechanic is really bad for PvP and alot of Darkness Assas even dont use Shields, their Surv. will drop.

 

so long

 

I think what we are misunderstanding is that Darkness is actually pretty good all the way around. It's probably the only fully complete tree that's out there. In 1.2 your Darkness/Death Field hybrids are gone, so it will even out a bit more.

 

Bioware did a great job with the tank trees. Assassins spend the fight keeping cooldowns and self heals going. PT tanks spend the fight pushing to maintain aggro. Jugs I have no idea wha they do.

[Varicite]

I think what we are misunderstanding is that Darkness is actually pretty good all the way around. It's probably the only fully complete tree that's out there. In 1.2 your Darkness/Death Field hybrids are gone, so it will even out a bit more.

 

Bioware did a great job with the tank trees. Assassins spend the fight keeping cooldowns and self heals going. PT tanks spend the fight pushing to maintain aggro. Jugs I have no idea wha they do.

 

I think that is why people call Darkness "OP". Most classes aren't "pretty good all around". Most classes aren't capable of putting out top damage, protection, and a decent amount of healing all at the same time in a PvP environment.

 

I'm not saying it needs a nerf, but let's just look at what a Darkness Sin does actually get, shall we?

 

- medium armor / defense

- self-healing on a short cd

- guard

- very high utility (Force Pull, snare/root break, AoE snare, etc)

- respectable damage (3-4k Shocks, 5-6k 3x HD Force Lightnings in dps gear)

- ability to escape combat

- stealth (ability to choose targets at will)

- gap closer

- CC abilities (Mind Trap, Whirlwind, Electrocute, Spike)

 

Now, most classes have about half of that list when they are speaking about themselves. They don't get to do it all, and they certainly don't get to excel while doing it all. PT tanks don't go around healing themselves while tanking your damage and then hit you w/ a 6k channel followed by a 3k instant.

 

You may call it "well-rounded", but to a lot of people who have to choose to give up some things in order to succeed, classes who can do it all w/ no real drawbacks are always going to be OP.

 

I'm not saying who's right, but it would be silly to pretend that Darkness Sins don't already bring a lot more to the table than most other ACs in the game.

 

I mean, seriously, just look at the OP. The "drawback" for Darkness is that... people don't like you. lolwat? Not even the OP could think of an actual drawback for the spec, in a thread aimed at debunking the myths. That should maybe tell you something...

Edited March 27, 2012 by Varicite

[Astarica]

Darkness armor classificaton is above normal Heavy Armor but below tank Heavy Armor. In Dark Charge I mitigate about 41%. A Merc in Heavy Armor mitigates around low 30s while a PT in the same armor + tanking stance bonus/talents is around 50%. If A PT/Jugg uses his DPS stance, his armor would definitely be lower than ours.

 

The 'other people don't like you' drawback for Darkness is actually a drawback for all other specs. What happens is that people will see a Darkness put up some crazy numbers and decide this class is overpowered so they better kill them quick. This causes Madness/Deception specs to get mauled by 4 guys who were victimized by Darkness Assassins in the past, since these victims are just going to see someone with a double bladed lightsaber and kill him first. In particular this really hurts Deception because it's hard to be subtle or pick your fights when you're being hounded by previous victims of Darkness spec.

 

From a neutral point of view, neither Madness nor Deception are so dangerous that they should receive the 'kill on sight' status. They really should function kind of like Jugg/PT DPS specs, i.e. decent DPS specs that can get away with great DPS sometimes because people don't prioritize on them first. However, since nobody actually checks what spec you are before killing you, all Assassins get prioritized first regardless of spec.

[Varicite]

Darkness armor classificaton is above normal Heavy Armor but below tank Heavy Armor. In Dark Charge I mitigate about 41%. A Merc in Heavy Armor mitigates around low 30s while a PT in the same armor + tanking stance bonus/talents is around 50%. If A PT/Jugg uses his DPS stance, his armor would definitely be lower than ours.

 

The 'other people don't like you' drawback for Darkness is actually a drawback for all other specs. What happens is that people will see a Darkness put up some crazy numbers and decide this class is overpowered so they better kill them quick. This causes Madness/Deception specs to get mauled by 4 guys who were victimized by Darkness Assassins in the past, since these victims are just going to see someone with a double bladed lightsaber and kill him first. In particular this really hurts Deception because it's hard to be subtle or pick your fights when you're being hounded by previous victims of Darkness spec.

 

From a neutral point of view, neither Madness nor Deception are so dangerous that they should receive the 'kill on sight' status. They really should function kind of like Jugg/PT DPS specs, i.e. decent DPS specs that can get away with great DPS sometimes because people don't prioritize on them first. However, since nobody actually checks what spec you are before killing you, all Assassins get prioritized first regardless of spec.

 

That's a different way of looking at it, but I feel that it's more or less true. Well said.

 

It's pretty true that when someone sees you outside of stealth, they're going to assume Darkness first. Just like I assume "Annihilation" when I see a Marauder, or "Arsenal" if I see a Merc who isn't healing.

 

Strangely enough, I think the Marauder stereotype actually works out to Rage and Carnage's advantage, lol.

[Astarica]

That's a different way of looking at it, but I feel that it's more or less true. Well said.

 

It's pretty true that when someone sees you outside of stealth, they're going to assume Darkness first. Just like I assume "Annihilation" when I see a Marauder, or "Arsenal" if I see a Merc who isn't healing.

 

Strangely enough, I think the Marauder stereotype actually works out to Rage and Carnage's advantage, lol.

 

Well in the case of Marauder there's no huge dropoff in survivality (it's not the difference between Dark Charge versus not) between specs so you can certainly play incorrectly because you're unfamiliar with the DPS styles between different specs.

 

In the case of Assassins, any DPS that's meant to take Darkness down will simply destroy the other two specs since the survivality gap is huge, and it's not like your enemy will say "Oops that wasn't the Assassin we were looking for". They'll just assume whoever they killed probably sucked or that they did something right, even though they really did get the wrong guy.

[verfallen]

Well in the case of Marauder there's no huge dropoff in survivality (it's not the difference between Dark Charge versus not) between specs so you can certainly play incorrectly because you're unfamiliar with the DPS styles between different specs.

 

In the case of Assassins, any DPS that's meant to take Darkness down will simply destroy the other two specs since the survivality gap is huge, and it's not like your enemy will say "Oops that wasn't the Assassin we were looking for". They'll just assume whoever they killed probably sucked or that they did something right, even though they really did get the wrong guy.

 

Deception have their own tool to deal with people are are arguably the best 1vs1 class out there played right. Played right mean getting the first hit in, and avoid people going at 2-3 vs 1 with you.

 

So if one get jumped in the open, he did something wrong.

[TheOpf]

Well in the case of Marauder there's no huge dropoff in survivality (it's not the difference between Dark Charge versus not) between specs so you can certainly play incorrectly because you're unfamiliar with the DPS styles between different specs.

 

In the case of Assassins, any DPS that's meant to take Darkness down will simply destroy the other two specs since the survivality gap is huge, and it's not like your enemy will say "Oops that wasn't the Assassin we were looking for". They'll just assume whoever they killed probably sucked or that they did something right, even though they really did get the wrong guy.

 

haha, Well said. I was in Civil War recently with a server pvp team. We were rolling the Republic up and spitting them out. An Op and would roam around jump a healer and kill him off. However, sometime through the bg, I began to get hunted like a squirrel. No matter where I popped out 3 guys would immediately leave their spot and drop kick me across the room. It didn't matter what I was doing.

 

In fact, in a later VoidStar, I got trainwrecked by a premade team everytime I appeared near a ranged dpser. The darkness guy with me got trainwrecked too, but he definitely lived longer.

[TheOpf]

Deception have their own tool to deal with people are are arguably the best 1vs1 class out there played right. Played right mean getting the first hit in, and avoid people going at 2-3 vs 1 with you.

 

So if one get jumped in the open, he did something wrong.

 

You don't get jumped in the open. Let me paint a scenario for you.

 

Your team attacks a node or door. Your job is to hunt down the healers/range and jump them. Generally 2-3 guys will see the double saber, and rush to you. I can vanish and run, but if those are on CD. You will get destroyed.

 

On a side note, nothing is funnier than watching a healer think they are fine just before Shock/Maul/Discharge hits. Than watch them freak and run, Electrocute, Maul, Low slash VSx2 shock and bammo, they go down. Though I generally have to toss a jolt in there.

[Varicite]

Well in the case of Marauder there's no huge dropoff in survivality (it's not the difference between Dark Charge versus not) between specs so you can certainly play incorrectly because you're unfamiliar with the DPS styles between different specs.

 

In the case of Assassins, any DPS that's meant to take Darkness down will simply destroy the other two specs since the survivality gap is huge, and it's not like your enemy will say "Oops that wasn't the Assassin we were looking for". They'll just assume whoever they killed probably sucked or that they did something right, even though they really did get the wrong guy.

 

I actually meant that it works out to their advantage because I'm generally wary about taking on a Mara/Sent, unless they are directly interfering w/ my destruction of a tank, healer, ball-carrier, or objective. Otherwise, I leave them be, because a good Mara can and will destroy me (as a Pyro PT). If they're not Annihilation, they probably got a free pass simply for looking like a more threatening predator on the field. Works in nature too. : )

 

Darkness Sins will also destroy me, but the difference is that you have a lot of time to decide what you're going to do when you see those dual glowy sabers in the distance. When a Sin pops out on you, you have a split second to decide what spec it is and how to deal w/ it, and it's almost always in your best interest to assume it's Darkness and fight accordingly.

 

Until I see the yo-yo saber animation, Deathfield, or hear Crushing Darkness go off on me, it's really pretty hard to tell the difference between Assassin specs at a glance, and it's NEVER a good idea to assume it's anything less than a Darkness Sin. Not if you enjoy living, at least.

[Fatal_flaw]

I actually meant that it works out to their advantage because I'm generally wary about taking on a Mara/Sent, unless they are directly interfering w/ my destruction of a tank, healer, ball-carrier, or objective. Otherwise, I leave them be, because a good Mara can and will destroy me (as a Pyro PT). If they're not Annihilation, they probably got a free pass simply for looking like a more threatening predator on the field. Works in nature too. : )

 

Darkness Sins will also destroy me, but the difference is that you have a lot of time to decide what you're going to do when you see those dual glowy sabers in the distance. When a Sin pops out on you, you have a split second to decide what spec it is and how to deal w/ it, and it's almost always in your best interest to assume it's Darkness and fight accordingly.

 

Until I see the yo-yo saber animation, Deathfield, or hear Crushing Darkness go off on me, it's really pretty hard to tell the difference between Assassin specs at a glance, and it's NEVER a good idea to assume it's anything less than a Darkness Sin. Not if you enjoy living, at least.

 

Its actually pretty easy, you can tell by the saber charge buff or just by glancing at their saber and see if it has a greenish purple glow either of which will tell you if the have Dark Charge active (darkness specd).

 

As for getting focused it just makes sense to focus a sin regardless of spec. Either they are a tank sin and getting rid of their utility is a priority or they are madness/deception and will die really fast and can be forced to retreat to lick their wounds at the very least.

 

The same thing happens to me on my OP. Most people are scared of my burst and start getting mad after the 3rd or 4th time I gank them and start focusing me the second I come out of stealth. It comes with playing a stealth class; if you are good people naturally will not like you.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Fatal_flaw

[TheOpf]

I am glad that this topic has continued to go down the trail of intelligent and well thought out replies as to the values, issues, and general skills or abilities of the Assassin.

 

It is really easy to tell specs when targeting an assassin, the buff or colored light saber are keys. However, if they jump you it does take 2-3 GCD's to figure out what they are. I do find the stealth thing to be hilarious as people do get royally upset at you for dropping them when they think they should kill you.

 

I love killing slingers, shadows, and those gosh dang annoying sages. I hate Sages with a passion the double bubble, self heals, numerous slows, and I can't stand Their version of Force lightning. I generally avoid Troopers and Knights.

 

Personally my least favorite class to fight as a deception is the Vanguard. I seriously wish I had the kick in the balls move from the smuggler when I face them. I can't stand the grapple me off an edge move that they pull on me. I ran into a premade that had 2 of them. Everytime I got on a healer it was grapple here, grapple there, grapple everwhere followed by that stupid grenade ugh.

 

I mean I will take a smuggler with all their CD's up before I face one of those gosh dang annoying Vanguards. BTW, running into a smuggler who has knockback, mez, stun, groin kick, and they have one more small one up and running is a mess of hilarity. I swear I spent half the fight stunned.

[Varicite]

Its actually pretty easy, you can tell by the saber charge buff or just by glancing at their saber and see if it has a greenish purple glow either of which will tell you if the have Dark Charge active (darkness specd).

 

As for getting focused it just makes sense to focus a sin regardless of spec. Either they are a tank sin and getting rid of their utility is a priority or they are madness/deception and will die really fast and can be forced to retreat to lick their wounds at the very least.

 

The same thing happens to me on my OP. Most people are scared of my burst and start getting mad after the 3rd or 4th time I gank them and start focusing me the second I come out of stealth. It comes with playing a stealth class; if you are good people naturally will not like you.

 

I do look for the buff, but it's tiny. :c

 

The glow method doesn't always work, thanks to buggy graphical displays at times, ESPECIALLY on glow/lighting effects.

 

I actually run twin Twi'lek Assassins w/ my fiancee (I am Darkness, she is Deception) and I can very rarely tell if my own saber is charged, let alone hers. They usually look exactly the same (identical colors) when we are fighting beside each other.

 

It's very apparent when we charge our sabers, but it seems like it fades pretty quickly. I'll have to pay more attention, though, it may just be more subtle than I'm used to.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Varicite

[verfallen]

You don't get jumped in the open. Let me paint a scenario for you.

 

Your team attacks a node or door. Your job is to hunt down the healers/range and jump them. Generally 2-3 guys will see the double saber, and rush to you. I can vanish and run, but if those are on CD. You will get destroyed.

 

On a side note, nothing is funnier than watching a healer think they are fine just before Shock/Maul/Discharge hits. Than watch them freak and run, Electrocute, Maul, Low slash VSx2 shock and bammo, they go down. Though I generally have to toss a jolt in there.

 

Obviously its not failsafe and teamwork remains the best way to be efficient.

 

If 2-3 guys always team up and play as a team and not as 3 single players in their world and competing for best damage epeen award, they'll thrash you trying to take on the healer.

 

Reputation vary a lot around the classes. Sorc curse mara, sniper curse tanks, mara curse operative and darkness sin, merc curse operatives, etc.

 

If you run into a real team with a bunch of single-player minded group, you are all going to get rolled 1 by 1.

[Astarica]

Trying to deduce the stance of the Assassin falls into same issue of why Exploit Weakness sucks. You just can't expect to pick out a tiny icon against a class that, for most classes, have an extremely hard time defeating. You'd have to play nearly flawlessly for most classes to have a shot at defeating Darkness and even a second lost looking at the spec could cause you the fight. And of course Darkness Assassins are extremely common to begin with so it's perfectly reasonable to assume the enemy is the worst case scenario.

 

While Deception has very low survivality, focus fire on them first isn't always the best thing to do in non 1on1 situation. The most common situation would be say you attack a healer out of stealth, he tosses you and the nearest 3 guys turns around and kills you instantly because they thought you were a Darkness Assassin that's about to unleash doom. If there was a way for the enemy to know precisely what your spec is ahead of time, they could say just toss + root you, and then focus on the more dangerous players (say a Marauder) first knowing that you, as Deception, isn't getting out of that root anytime soon so they can neutralize your DPS and focus on the bigger threat.

 

But, of course there's no way for the enemy to know for sure. They'll have to assume you're a Darkness who is about to break out of that root and unload your DPS, so here the Deception (and Madness) gets unreasonably focus fired even though the optimal strategy is just to root/snare you to neutralize the threat. Now you can say but they killed a guy, how can that be bad? It's bad if the 5 seconds those guys turned around to deal with you allowed a Marauder to walk up (not charge, just walk) to their healer, since at that point the enemy healer is pretty much dead because the Marauder didn't need to use charge to get close due to the decoy. Trading pretty much any DPS for a healer is always a good deal in a large fight.

 

Being mistaken for Darkness is good for your team, since you'll be treated above your true threat value which means it should allow another DPS to sneak in without being harassed. But being the decoy is generally not an enjoyable experience.

 

Assuming no personal grudges, only truly overpowered classes should get the 'marked for death' treatment. In the current game only Annihilation Marauder and Darkness Assassin are in the running for this status. Anybody who is 'marked for death' obviously will do wosre than normal because even the most overpowered class can be throttled if you got 3 guys hunting you down the whole time. Deception, in particular, is very weak when marked for death. Even though the class is clearly not so strong to warrant this status, you end up getting this status because another Darkness (or 5) Assassin burned your enemy's home village and zapped everyone to death. Really Deception is kind of like Wedge. They're supposed to say "Let him go, stay on the leader" and go after Luke Skywalker, except in this case you also look like Luke Skywalker.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Astarica

[mrHaterade]

So are Darkness assassins supposed to be godlike? Because I kill them all the time with Madness. :/

[Britneyfears]

So are Darkness assassins supposed to be godlike? Because I kill them all the time with Madness. :/

 

I played deception and madness untill I hit BM, then switched to darkness. I have never lost a single 1v1 against any spec assassin/shadow. But is it really that important?

 

The most important thing is not what class/spec it is you are facing, but to know if the one playing it actually knows what he/she is doing.

 

I played wow from beta till cataclysm and I have never seen so much backpeddling in a game (on my server at least: Legions of Lettow), then in SWTOR for example.

 

class, spec, gear, abilities are only as efficient as how everything is used by the player playing the char. Besides, wz's are not balanced around 1v1, but at times it does help to be able to kill someone 1v1.

 

We play alot of premades and next to everything you bring as a player towards your char and vice versa, good teamplay and coördination will determine the outcome of the match. Situational awareness and fast adaptational skills are also very handy.

 

I played 2800+ and Hero of the Alliance rated bg's, but no matter how "good" (always subjective no matter what rating), I or someone else might be, there is ALWAYS room for improvement towards any aspect of your play.

 

Even if you can kill certain classes/players easily, there might be ways to make it even better ^^

[Enexemander]

So are Darkness assassins supposed to be godlike? Because I kill them all the time with Madness. :/

 

No.

 

I'm kind of chuckling at the above "unleash doom" of darkness dps. Darkness does not unleash doom; darkness wears people down while self healing. That's all.

 

Show me a healer afraid of what a darkness assassin can put out solo, and I'll show you a poorly played healer.

 

On the flip side, throw a deception assassin at that healer and there are only a precious few gcds to react before the healer has taken serious DANGER ZONE damage and will be concentrating on their own survival (and not their team's). That is, if they're not dead already.

 

Madness can bring the pain as well, but it kind of depends on the healer not being able or not being good enough to dispel themselves. Since everyone and their brother rolled a sage/sorc for healing, dispels abound.

[Varicite]

No.

 

I'm kind of chuckling at the above "unleash doom" of darkness dps. Darkness does not unleash doom; darkness wears people down while self healing. That's all.

 

Show me a healer afraid of what a darkness assassin can put out solo, and I'll show you a poorly played healer.

 

On the flip side, throw a deception assassin at that healer and there are only a precious few gcds to react before the healer has taken serious DANGER ZONE damage and will be concentrating on their own survival (and not their team's). That is, if they're not dead already.

 

Madness can bring the pain as well, but it kind of depends on the healer not being able or not being good enough to dispel themselves. Since everyone and their brother rolled a sage/sorc for healing, dispels abound.

 

For a lot of classes (ie: non-healers, some tanks) Darkness usually does spell "doom", not because of its damage, but because of its attrition tactics. You don't need to do a lot of damage when your health bar continually keeps going back up while the other guy's only goes down.

 

Good defenses coupled w/ self-heals is a beastly combo, and while Darkness "burst" won't impress my Pyro PT number-wise, it's definitely respectable and not something that you can just ignore, unless you happen to also have self-heals.

 

Lets also not forget the complete awesomeness of Force Cloak that effectively shuts down a move or two from most classes, or the fact that in a 1v1 situation, a Darkness tank can always Vanish > Mindtrap > Meditate to reset the fight in their favor.

 

It's not God-mode, but they most certainly have a lot riding in their favor in most given 1v1 situations, which is what people erroneously base their judgments on.

[mrHaterade]

I'm kind of chuckling at the above "unleash doom" of darkness dps.

That's the exact phrase I was commenting on. I've never had a Darkness assassin "unleash doom" on me. The only assassins that kill me are Deception. I hate fighting Deception assassins. It usually ends with him/her killing me then taking ten steps before finally succumbing to my DoT's.

[Mkats]

Deception is terrible in World PVP because you can be killed in 2 stuns.

 

Any Melee is screwed in world PvP.

[Mkats]

So are Darkness assassins supposed to be godlike? Because I kill them all the time with Madness. :/

 

Usually the well played class that are hard to master are the best choices, who will destroy the FoTM specs. Madness is the hardest to master, so it makes sense that you will be beating the average darkness tank.

[TheOpf]

It's not God-mode, but they most certainly have a lot riding in their favor in most given 1v1 situations, which is what people erroneously base their judgments on.

 

Bingo! The problem I think most people is that they get rolled by a Deception Assassin, and then attack a Darkness feeling they will roll him. At which point he doesn't die easily. They then assume that they are the same class or person.

 

Personally, as a Deception Assassin. Once Force Shroud and my other shield go down, I generally follow unless the player is solo. Than a low slash, force slow chase is on.

 

VSx2/Maul/Shock/Discharge is enough to scare just about any non-tank class.