Kinetic combat: Agressive pvp speccing

[Moonheart_S]

I've been playing a Kinetic Shadow since a moment now, running now in full champion, but I'm getting more and more disappointed with Slow Time and Force Breach in pvp.

To get a good amount of damage, you need to grab at least 4 targets into the range which is not really likely to happen often against intelligent opponents who doesn't cluster together in order to make the joy of AoE users, and the damage reduction of those two skills is, IMHO, almost not noticeable.

 

Those are two must-have in PvE for tanking, but I'm now wondering: if you aim for pvp only, wouldn't be interesting to drop the points spent into Slow Time and Force Break in order to get more agressive tools?

 

Toying with a skill calculator, I reached this 28/3/10 build

 

Basically, it's almost like your usual 31/0/10, except it adds to our rotations the opportunity to use Spinning Kick/Force Stun agressively when Infiltration Tactics triggers, adding the damage bonus from Nerve Wracking to the armor penetration bonus of the Shadow Strike.

 

The build would be used with the pvp survivor gear re-modded with stalker mods, in order to reduce the CD of Spinning Kick and allow to use the combo more often.

 

 

 

I'd like to have opinions of other kinetic shadow players on it. Feel free to comment.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[RodneyMcNeely]

Hi there! Glad you're enjoying Shadow tanking in PvP. Personally, playing my Kinetic Combat Shadow in warzones is the most fun I've had in a video game in my life, and I'm 37.

 

 

I'll offer this advice; I'm only 41st level, but I've been hitting 6-9 medals per fight, so take it for what it's worth.

 

I noticed you've taken Harnessed Shadows. For that reason alone I would spec into Slow time. Getting to 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows as quickly as possible turns the tide in tons of fights for me. Even though we have several ranged attacks, a lot of folks are going to try to kite you anyway when you start swinging your lightsaber around. When they dance away, pop Force Potency and Telekinetic Throw. You're still hurting them AND healing yourself. And the longer you stay alive, the more pressure you can put on them. Oh, and having Slow Time on your bars means you can take Force Slow off completely. With an AoE slow, a 15-second duration, and a 7.5-second cooldown, it's more than enough to keep your opponent snared.

 

And I would completely drop Infiltration Tactics. Between Strike, Double Strike, Project (with Particle Acceleration up) and Spinning Strike, there's absolutely no reason to use Shadow Strike. The damage per focus makes it a complete waste of a global cooldown, IMHO. I would put 2 of those points into Force Break or Mental Fortitude, and the other one into Slow Time.

 

Hope that helps, and happy hunting!

 

[Anelyn]

No matter what you try to do, with gearing and different KC specs, you won't come close to the dps a pure dps can put out, but you will also hurt yourself - and your team, from gutting your tanking as well (and the utility that comes with it, mainly slow time, as well losing important defence / HP by using dps gear).

 

You won't make a pure dps KC no matter how hard you try, I strongly advice if you want more dps, to try infil or balance, tho I would advice toward balance.

 

Sure you can put some decent numbers on light armor, but heavy armor? LOL. And your job as KC is not to do underpar dmg, but to protect your team and hinder enemy players.

[jbuschell]

Sounds to me you just want to dps, just go infiltration or balance. A pvp tanks purpose is to stay alive at nodes/doors, guard healers or squishy deeps with sustained Dmg through the simple fact you're staying alive, just stay 31/0/10 and when you get 3 stacks of hs and do like 6k Dmg with your TkT while not being able to die be happy.

 

Or you could go Infiltration cream your pants at the big burst numbers but die within seconds

 

Personally I'm balance and I love it , I don't care if KC is more viable I will never play it again its just to boring

Edited March 23, 2012 by jbuschell

[Izola]

Does the shield really help?

 

I'm trying tank out for the first time and I was wondering if I'm in FULL DPS gear with no REAL stats in the tank area if I should be using my shield or not.

 

Does it do anything that I would notice?

[jbuschell]

Does the shield really help?

 

I'm trying tank out for the first time and I was wondering if I'm in FULL DPS gear with no REAL stats in the tank area if I should be using my shield or not.

 

Does it do anything that I would notice?

 

I asked this same question in another thread, the response I got was essentially to use a shield + kinetic ward Untill you're in full champion the crappy survivability when you're first gearing up requires a shield essentially

[trakata]

Sorry OP, gonna have to disagree with you on this one. We are not designed to be crazy burst damage dealers, although we are reasonably capable of it when correctly using Force Potency and Power Relic/Adrenal. Slow Time is an excellent because it snares, deals damage, and helps quickly proc HS stacks for Telekinetic Throw, which is an amazing damage dealer and self-heal.

 

I also think Nerve-Wracking isn't very useful given how little uptime you have on Spinning Kick and Force Stun, but that's personal opinion.

 

As for gear, there have been epic forum battles over Shield vs. Focus. I play slightly more defensively than most KC Shadows so I use Shield and a 50/50 DPS/Tank gear split, but it's really up to your style. I actually plan to grab full BM stalker and champion sets so I can mix and match at will depending on situation (defending a cap vs. attacking).

[Wakantanka]

I currently run this build which is somewhat similar: 24/5/12

 

I do very well in pvp running no shield. I have no problem topping damage charts, I believe the most I have ever done in a match was just over 400k, but typically I do around 250k-300k damage.

 

I have 2 piece survivor with stalker mods for the Spinning Kick reduction, this is key as it takes the place of low-slash for Shadow-Strike opportunities. IMO Adjudication is huge, my most used ability (Double-Strike) hits much harder on a crit which I am sitting at around 30%(DS usually hits for 1100-1200 on a crit per strike).

 

Your proposal of going for Nerve wracking is interesting, I have never thought it worth the points, and last a tried it I wasn't impressed, but that was before I had spin kick cd reduction and really got into this build.

 

I my have to try this build: 26/3/12 and report back my findings. I like the idea of bigger shadow strike damage, and perhaps begin able to take down healers fast during a stun/kick with more than one team mate hammering them. I will miss shadows respite it allows unfettered force consumption out of stealth and I cloak to reposition and regain force many times.

 

I am still not a fan Harnessed Shadows, I know it's a strong ability, I just could not get into using it, I prefer swinging my saber.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Wakantanka

[Kooter]

23/1/17 might be a good alternative too. I'm on your side, because some people don't prefer Slow Time based on playstyle. And playing Balance from Valor 25ish to 60, I'm just attached to Force in Balance. Maybe something you might be interested in: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3588324

 

Hope that helps you, moonheart

[Tinmancreeping]

I've been playing a Kinetic Shadow since a moment now, running now in full champion, but I'm getting more and more disappointed with Slow Time and Force Breach in pvp.

To get a good amount of damage, you need to grab at least 4 targets into the range which is not really likely to happen often against intelligent opponents who doesn't cluster together in order to make the joy of AoE users, and the damage reduction of those two skills is, IMHO, almost not noticeable.

 

Those are two must-have in PvE for tanking, but I'm now wondering: if you aim for pvp only, wouldn't be interesting to drop the points spent into Slow Time and Force Break in order to get more agressive tools?

 

Toying with a skill calculator, I reached this 28/3/10 build

 

Basically, it's almost like your usual 31/0/10, except it adds to our rotations the opportunity to use Spinning Kick/Force Stun agressively when Infiltration Tactics triggers, adding the damage bonus from Nerve Wracking to the armor penetration bonus of the Shadow Strike.

 

The build would be used with the pvp survivor gear re-modded with stalker mods, in order to reduce the CD of Spinning Kick and allow to use the combo more often.

 

 

 

I'd like to have opinions of other kinetic shadow players on it. Feel free to comment.

SHadow KC shines in PvP for alot of reasons, droping utility/surviability for dmg = sad face.

[Moonheart_S]

Ok, lots of answers.

 

First, I'm going to answer to people that say I won't become a good DPS as a kinetic shadow... I'll answer them this is not even the point, nor my goal. I'm just looking for an alternative playstyle for the kinetic spec, but an alternate playstyle doesn't mean I'm looking to take other specs roles.

 

The 28/3/10 I'm speaking of is a tank build. A tank that dropped a bit utility to gain in versatility with addionnal single target damage.

This is not a "better" spec than the usual 31/0/10. This is a different one, based more on small group fightning than big melees.

 

So, yes, I won't become a DPS, but I believe that, when you're guarding alone a spot, it's as important to able able to dispatch a single opponent reliably without calling for help (which would drain ressources from the main fightning ground) than be able to gain time when you see several opponents coming for it.

With that in mind, drop a little mitigation (only 2% here) to get a bit more of DPS can be useful, even if it's getting more efficiency into solo guarding by trading the overall efficiency in large battles.

 

Now, what I'm looking as information is if someone as a real belief that it won't bring more dps than a 31/0/10 build and why, not that I will loose something by dropping Slow Time.

I'm aware of this, so it doesn't help me at all that you tell me that.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[MiaRB]

its not a tank build because you are not tanking. you are DPS geared like all the other non-tank KC builds, right? for what you are saying you want to do, inf spec is still better. inf specs can still use combat tech if they want to and still get most of the advantages of inf spec tree.

 

you are gimping yourself and your team by choosing a tank spec that you try to play as a single target damage spec. your team will do much better if you actually tank in pvp. or if you dont want to tank then choose a spec that allows you to actually perform the single target damage role well.

[Moonheart_S]

In PvP, it doesn't even make sense to speak of a "tank" in the first place because what's called "tank" in pve is something you cannot reproduce against players.

So I don't even see the point of arguing if my build is a "tank" or not.

 

And I don't see either the logic that allows you to say someone is gimping a pvp team if he does a build that doesn't fit truly in any of the three roles of the basic pve strategy.

 

Before I started this thread I asked to every of the best pvp healers I met on my server what they were thinking about Slow Time and they all answered that, in pvp, it wasn't worth my 4 skill points spent for.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[MiaRB]

In PvP, it doesn't even make sense to speak of a "tank" in the first place because what's called "tank" in pve is something you cannot reproduce against players.

So I don't even see the point of arguing if my build is a "tank" or not.

 

And I don't see either the logic that allows you to say someone is gimping a pvp team if he does a build that doesn't fit truly in any of the three roles of the basic pve strategy.

 

Before I started this thread I asked to every of the best pvp healers I met on my server what they were thinking about Slow Time and they all answered that, in pvp, it wasn't worth my 4 skill points spent for.

 

you dont know what tanking in PVP means? think about it this way, what do you target first in PVP? healer or single target damage/bursters. when do you not target them first? when they have gaurd bubble on them, you and your team should take out the tank that is gaurding first. if the tank is in dsp gear, they drop fast, which means you can kill your real target faster. but if tank is tank geared and knows how to tank in PVP, then while you are struggling to take him out, the DPSer he is gaurding is ripping your team apart. or, the healer is free to heal, heal, heal, heal.

 

anyway, while you are off trying to do not so great single target damage, your ungaurded true damage dealers and healers are getting burned down. which means your team isnt goind to clear out attackers/defenders fast enough.

[NeverRose]

Wait, another KC with no slow time ;D

 

Guys. They recently buffed it so you can use it.

[Moonheart_S]

Thinking a kinetic shadow is only suitable for guarding the healer in pvp is just a screwed and unrealistic logic.

If you can't imagine a tank doing something else than guarding a healer, then you shouldn't even answer this thread in the first place because you obviously lack some pick-up pvp experience, where you often land without a healer, or four tanks and only one healer...

 

A kinetic shadow can perform other roles and perform them well, like solo guarding a captured objective.

That's a role I perform often because there is like two tanks for one healer on my server, and people say I do it very well.

But, for that role, the 31/0/10 spec doesn't seems appealing to me.

 

If it happens I'm the only tank, it's easy to swtich gear into a full survival one. A good kinetic shadow should choose it's gear depending of the team set-up neverless. I'll only lack Slow Time, which is, from the good healers I know, not worth my 4 talents points even when I'm guarding them.

 

But anyway this is a minority case for me in pick-up. and I end to guard objective in solo far more often than I'm guarding a healer, and, I'm sorry, for solo guarding, Slow Time is jut crap plain crap.

Snare? You don't have use of a snare when you're guarding an objective since you're not going to kite nor chase anything. It would mean getting far of the objective, which is something you shouldn't do.

5% damage reduction? Not likely to going to save you... that's only 1,5% real additionnal mitigation. Either you are ganked and it would only make 1s more of survival, or you are 1vs1 et you better do more damage.

 

But those are truth that I see you don't seems to understand, so I wonder if you even really play outside set-up teams sometimes. And if you don't, you know very few about pvp imho.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[Maeljina]

No matter what you try to do, with gearing and different KC specs, you won't come close to the dps a pure dps can put out, but you will also hurt yourself - and your team, from gutting your tanking as well (and the utility that comes with it, mainly slow time, as well losing important defence / HP by using dps gear).

 

You won't make a pure dps KC no matter how hard you try, I strongly advice if you want more dps, to try infil or balance, tho I would advice toward balance.

 

Sure you can put some decent numbers on light armor, but heavy armor? LOL. And your job as KC is not to do underpar dmg, but to protect your team and hinder enemy players.

 

I can't agree you with that. Other JC Shadow with KC-Balance hybrid spec from our guild makes at his best like 440k damage. I have ONCE made over 300k damage with pure Infil. And yes, you can explain this by saying that I'm a bad player and so on, but I can tell that we were equal while we were using the same infil spec.

 

However, Infil is good for single burst damage, but force is restoring slower, you're not as strong as KC-Balance and if you don't get crits a lot, dps is going to be low. :/ I find this very sad, because I found infil very nice and enjoyable spec. And remember that I'm talking about PvP, where it matters that how strong your char is. Even though you don't make as fine single burst damage as infil does with KC-Balance, you're stronger and you can make more damage in a longer time than infil can.

[Maeljina]

its not a tank build because you are not tanking. you are DPS geared like all the other non-tank KC builds, right? for what you are saying you want to do, inf spec is still better. inf specs can still use combat tech if they want to and still get most of the advantages of inf spec tree.

 

you are gimping yourself and your team by choosing a tank spec that you try to play as a single target damage spec. your team will do much better if you actually tank in pvp. or if you dont want to tank then choose a spec that allows you to actually perform the single target damage role well.

 

Oh I would not suggest to use combat technique while you're Infil, because you're losing the main dps points comparing the use of shadow technique. In that case you're not making more dps with Infil.

[Anelyn]

I can't agree you with that. Other JC Shadow with KC-Balance hybrid spec from our guild makes at his best like 440k damage. I have ONCE made over 300k damage with pure Infil. And yes, you can explain this by saying that I'm a bad player and so on, but I can tell that we were equal while we were using the same infil spec.

 

However, Infil is good for single burst damage, but force is restoring slower, you're not as strong as KC-Balance and if you don't get crits a lot, dps is going to be low. :/ I find this very sad, because I found infil very nice and enjoyable spec. And remember that I'm talking about PvP, where it matters that how strong your char is. Even though you don't make as fine single burst damage as infil does with KC-Balance, you're stronger and you can make more damage in a longer time than infil can.

 

You can pull 600-700k as a balance shadow. Explain me how is that not MILES better than the 440k your KC-balance hybrid puts out. You're only bringing guard and pull as a hybrid KC / balance, you have no good dots (lol casting mind crush? 2s?), you have no good dmg vs tanks except 15s FiB, you lack aoe snare for your team, wearing dps gear you are more squishy so will take more dmg from guard and whoever is attacking you, requiring more heals, you have no shield to reduce some incoming dmg as you will use a focus to maximize a weak dps, vs good players you won't get many full TK at 3 stacks channeled (which is your highest dps spell as a KC), FiB also requires smart targeting / usage in premade vs premade to not break CC.

 

And infil is plain put horrible. When vanish and resilience are on CD, you die if get switched because you have nothing. I wanted to love low slash, but is a weapon attack, can be dodged which makes it not reliable in most cases outside of 1v1 with a sorc or something lol. While possible getting a 6s cd 12s duration force slow looks great on paper, is still 10m range, 30s sprint 1 min resi are buggers with how squishy shadow dps are in current game pace. Shadow Strike can be painful to use on a skilled player getting spammed with requires behind target or w/e (even stunned peeps can be lamme and lag cheat repositioning their character while stunned enough to waste your attempts to stab em). The OH so Great Damage if everything crits, but not even a nuisance if doesn't crit and you're all out of juice is not belonging in high-end game WZs. Same as with operatives and scoundrels who suffer from similar problems + same bad resource regen and sustainability.

 

We don't argue taste here, you can like and play any spec you want and you enjoy, but from a min-maxing point of view, infil is not viable atm, and KC without slow time is more of a burden to the team than a bonus. IMHO.

[Zintair]

There is a unique hybrid build that is a bit pigeon-holed in what it requires to be grouped with but looks like a fun build.

 

I took out the top two tiers in KC for the bottom 2 in Infiltration.

 

24/7/10

 

It's a more direct Healer protector/Healer Killer build.

 

To really minimize the lose to Slow Time and Harnessed Shadows I would really only try this with at least a Healer but preferably a Healer and Guardian.

 

The idea is the improved Mind Snap and Force of Will in conjunction with the Shadow Strike for 25 Force greatly improves our ability to interrupt and DPS down healers. We are still tough as nails only losing minor utility and self heals for the price of improved single target DPS and Utility. We also get a huge Force regen bonus from Shadowy Respite.

 

Like I said though I'd feel most comfortable running this with a Healer and Guardian with AoE slow which is 10x better than Slow Time.

[Aaramis]

We don't argue taste here, you can like and play any spec you want and you enjoy, but from a min-maxing point of view, infil is not viable atm, and KC without slow time is more of a burden to the team than a bonus. IMHO.

 

Yep, agreed. Keep slow time as KC, even for PvP. The damage adds up when you're constantly throwing out 1k damage every few seconds to 3-4 targets, plus snare is invaluable in a lot of PvP encounters.

 

As for gearing - it all depends on whether you want to be the nigh-unkillable PvP tank that's constantly harrassing other players with taunts, slow time, and so on, but not putting out a ton of damage; or if you want to go the "Shinarika" route and simply be a tank stance / shield using dps'er with all power/surge/crit gear to boost your dps through the roof.

 

Completely personal preference here and up to you. PvP tanking has it's distinct advantages, but I also find that PvP is very much about putting out dps - and tanking lacks that. There's no point in chasing down a ball carrier if you can't actually kill them, for example. However, a proper tank can hold a turret from 2-3 enemies while reinforcements are en route, which can make or break a game. So to each their own Whatever works for you, just gear for it. But you can do just fine in PvP with your PvE tank spec, is what I'm getting at.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Aaramis

[Moonheart_S]

But as you said, there is no reason to chase a ball bearer if you cannot kill it, for exemple.

This is not the only exemple, you cannot also take the opportunity of a badly defended turret if you cannot kill the only defender in less than 1mn.

 

PvE tanks can go all defense without loosing anything.

PvP tanks have sometimes interest to be able to actualy do a bit of damage, even if not as much as a dps, because there are situations when you MUST take down someone by yourself.

 

So, yes, Slow Time helps when you're performing a defensive action. But what % of your overall defense truly comes from Slow Time?

Doing some math, you'll see that it is unlikely that Slow Time will make you live longer than one or, if you're really lucky, two additionnal GCD that you would have survived without, unless there is a healer focused on you (which is why in pve, Slow Time is a great ability: in one more GCD, a good healer can save your butt)

 

Is that additionnal GCD (about 1,5s more) is really worth the 4 skills points you spent in?

Wouldn't a bit more of DPS be more precious in most situations of WZ?

 

When I look at my games, there are very few cases when you would have win if I had lived 3s more... but there are lots of cases when we could have win if I had been able to kill someone sooner.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[Missandei]

But as you said, there is no reason to chase a ball bearer if you cannot kill it, for exemple.

 

Indeed.. Why chase the ball carrier if you can simply pullgrab him to the fire/acid pit?

 

And if there is only one defender at the towerspot, you don`t need to beat him.. Just close in stealth, CC him / Force Lift and take the tower while he is incapacitated..

But as for recently I rarely see a Wzs where defenders so bold\dare to leave a tower guarded by the 1 man only..

 

The problem with Tank spec in PvP that all 1v1 battles went very slowly.. but hey, Wzs is a teamplay! You are not supposed to do Wzs in absolutely solo way..

 

And no matter how you`ll gear up, there is no way you can stand against 2-3 opponents..

As a DPS you`ll die faster not killing anyone of this 3.. As a Tank you`ll last for a longer time, maybe long enough for backup to come..

Edited March 25, 2012 by Missandei

[Moonheart_S]

I feel I'm going to stop to answer here, because it seems most people here just don't want to answer to the real subject of the thread and are instead only here to push their view of how the kinetic combat spec should be played.

 

There are only two people out of three page that actually bothered to really comment on the 28/3/10 build instead of trying to tell me I shouldn't even try to be imaginative or try other things that their sacred 31/0/10 build and the way they think it must be played.

 

So, ok, I get the message: There is only one good way to play in swtor. You all hold the only truth, even if I'm pretty sure none of you ever tried something different before put a judgement on it, and I'm stupid to want to try something else.

I don't even see why I continue to bother to answer this.

 

Most of people complain that there are very few builds possible in each spec, but what I see is when someone is talking of trying one different, players around are more busy to tell him to return to the old build than bringing helpful comments to help him to increase its chances to do a successfull try.

 

So, be happy in you world of clones. That's what you ask for, after all.

[Aaramis]

The thing is, for PvE tanking Slow Time is *essential*.

If you regularly tank PvE encounters, then it would be silly to not keep it, or switch to your other spec and have to re-spec several times a week every time you switch between PvE and PvP.

 

Now, that said, if you're not interested in tanking PvE, or you could care less about the hassles of respeccing, then by all means go with your 28/0/13 spec. This was a very popular spec previously before Slow Time got buffed, and still has some merit. FiB is a nice ability to have in PvP as well as PvE; however, it's still not a huge damage dealer. 2-3k per AoE vs. 1-2k per AoE + snare is a minor tradeoff, which most won't consider worth it. But up to you - you're paying for this game, so make sure you have fun.

 

Ultimately, it seems like you want to tank, but simply do more damage - in which case I strongly suggest just going the "Shin" route and using all dps gear in tank mode with a shield. You'll still be semi-beefy, get tons of medals with Guard, but double (or triple) your dps in a PvP encounter if played properly.

 

 

PS - getting shirty with people over them voicing opinions isn't going to encourage them to be more constructive in your thread.

 

 

PPS - to the previous poster, Force Pull isn't a guarantee. I've had it ignored countless times, and also Force Pulled someone into fire, only to have them chain-stun me and/or punt me away instantly with one of their knockback abilities. It also has a lengthy cooldown and should not be your only means of really killing someone.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Aaramis