23/1/17 might be a good alternative too. I'm on your side, because some people don't prefer Slow Time based on playstyle. And playing Balance from Valor 25ish to 60, I'm just attached to Force in Balance. Maybe something you might be interested in: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3588324 Hope that helps you, moonheart

Perfect, me too. If you are comparing it to 31/0/10 I'd lose: Slow Time 15% Damage increase to Force Breach Harnessed Shadow's Telekinetic Throw / Self Heal +1% Endurance, +3% Damage increase to Combat Technique, or +1% Defense I'd gain: 50% Crit Damage Increase in Double Strike Instant Force Lift Force in Balance I like FiB, Instant Force Lifts, and a powerful Double strike. Again, its personal preference. Some people like to tank, some people like to DPS, some people like to do a little of both. With that said, what is there not to understand about 23/1/17?

Like I said before, I don't want to start a FiB vs ST debate, but here we go. FiB's utility is just more valuable TO ME and reflects my type of playstyle in this build, because of its range and its aoe effect in WZ. Many saved objectives points are because of FiB, where ST's utility is the debuff aoe. Not even talking about DPS, because I sacrificed a little bit of overall(?) DPS in balance to have more utility, survivability, and bursts. As for the 1 point in Shadowy Veil, it was honestly a misclick (I should be working because I'm at work). I'm going to edit that right meow. It was meant to be in Shadow's Respite. And I can agree with you, it didn't make sense to me at first when it caught my attention, but then I started looking into it. But saying this build doesn't make sense because of 2 points you mentioned: preferring FiB over ST and Shadowy Veil (Stupid misclick, I'm dumb) just puts you off as close minded. I'm open for some discussion and critque, not stupid apple vs orange debates. As for 23/0/18, I do like the instant mind crush, because I used it all the time with my Force-Master PvP 2 set bonus and it was awesome. I never even had to worry about that because I macro'd it with my naga. BUT with combat, I have the 20% more armor, battle readiness heal, and guard. I also wanted to try something new. I do want to know if Kinetic Ward is worth investing in? Because I've seen some builds with or without it.

Yes I totally agree with you, actually. I regret ever investing in that infil tree when I was in balance. But in my defense, some hardcore math and theorycrafting shows that 5/5/31 is the best DPS build (a little above infil), but I think that math was applied to PvE haha

Hey guys, first off I would like to establish that I have used 2/31/8 for a month and a half, then I switched to 5/5/31, tried 31/0/10 for a week, and then until yesterday I switched to 23/1/17 (no instant mind crush, because you are in combat technique for this build) I have done a lot of searching on this forum and other websites/forums researching on theorycrafting, statistics, maximizing DPS, BiS, "Best PvP Spec", Rotations, etc. (its depressing hah) and this 23/1/17 hybrid build caught my attention. Unless I must have missed a thread on this particular hybrid build, I have not seen much discussion on it (besides a couple mentions on the sith assassin forum), which leads me to believe if hybrid builds (or this one in particular) are overlooked? After staring at this build for a week, I man up and paid the 50k respeccing from 5/5/31 to 23/1/17 yesturday. After an entire night PvPing I loved it BECAUSE it fit my type of playstyle. My DPS / healing / tanking numbers improved significantly because it meshed perfectly with how I PvP. This build has a great "tanking feel" survivability, the most PvP utility I've experienced thus far, surprisingly great burst damage, and the same (+/- in my case more) DPS than Infil and Balance. I understand Infil is flashy bursts, but I just feel helpless being restricted to 10m/15m. Balance is a lot of fun and statistically (theorycrafting) more DPS than infil, it isn't as strong at 1v1s compared to Infil's bursts, and I had to always keep up on the DoTs and stare at the bars way more than the actual battle, which makes me hate shadow strike (something I need to improve on). I understand 31/0/10 is great at PvP, but in my opinion Force in Balance's PvP utility highly outweighs Slow Time. With all that said, I am still looking for improvement, because I'm trying to break that taunting 500k mark! Is 23/1/17 > 23/0/18 ? Vice Versa? Other hybrid builds I overlooked? Which set bonus(es) are best for this build to maximize DPS/tank/selfheals? Etc. etc. My "resume" on my Shadow is Valor 62, wearing 4 Rakata Stalker Pieces, 2 Columni Stalker, and the rest mixed with Battlemaster and Champion Stalkers. Maxing my expertise at 400-500 and pulling my mods and enhancements for power / surge (Thank you very much Powerr and Xinika). My current set bonus is the Rakata Stalker set (+15% crit chance on DS and CS) because this build has a lot of focus on DS. I currently average 300k-400k DPS, 90k Protection, and 40k Heals a full Warzone game (which is better than my Balance's 250k-350k DPS Average), but I know there's room for improvement..