Mara/Pally Bubble needs to be looked at(Undying Rage)

[kiroshei]

There is a reason why blizzard nerfed the paladin bubble. Same reason Mara bubble needs to be fixed. You should not be able to do full dmg while being immune to pretty well everything. Make it so when a Mara uses this bubble its defensively and not offensively. Cut all damage and healing while bubble is up by 50%. I think its ok that you should be able to survive while its up but being able to kill multiple ppl while its up is just wrong and shouldnt be happening.

 

First, you're talking about the wrong ability. See:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fYZIabE/undying-rage

 

The point is that they remain fully offensive while gaining a tremendous amount of defense comparable to a paladin bubble. Not to mention, a 90 second cooldown? I have no idea what they were thinking when they were implementing this ability. It's for the lack of a better term: grossly overpowered and by far the best defensive cooldown in game at the current moment.

 

 

EDIT ****Good Constructive Feedback So Far*****

 

Not saying that marauders don't deserve this ability but this seems much better suited as a jug type ability, high up in the tanking tree.

 

My point exactly. I've seen what good maras/sents can do with this ability and the recovery they can make with it is incredible. Pair that with a healer, guard or taunting tank on the enemy team and that mara/sent automatically becomes one of the lowest priority targets.

 

I'd take a massive damage loss when it's up, but ONLY if I get to keep that 50% HP I had to lose to use it.

 

The ability wasnt well thought out. Its intent was to be a last ditch effort to give the maur/sent enough time to try and finish the opponent off before they die. Its intended to be used at low hp because of the 50% hp loss.

 

But what actualy happens is this. They pop the shield at low hp and lose a couple hundred hp. Then they use medpac or get healed while invuln and get back a large portion of there hp while keeping the shield up.

 

If you ask me keep this ability as is just reduce healing taken by 100% when the effect is up.

 

I find it odd that a Dps class can out live a tank class.

 

All of you who are defending this ability, are speaking from a casual warzone perspective.

 

Yes, under normal circumstances when you're playing with randoms, it's simply used to live for 5 seconds longer before you die, no big deal.

 

However, in the only kind of PvP that actually MATTERS, which is ORGANIZED PvP... any kind of immunity from damage is absolutely game breaking.

 

 

EDIT****Conclusion****

 

After 60+ pages and 17000+ views it has been concluded that a damage reduction perhaps isn't needed. The hp loss penalty as is isn't a penalty. Making it so a 99% healing reduction was added to this ability would fix the penalty so it would be working as intended. There hasn't been one mara/sent that has been able to debate this properly without using l2p scenarios. I urge the pvp team to consider this. For organized pvp this is one small step to an overall balance. Sure there are other issues that need to be attended to but clearly this has gotten the attention its deserved to be looked into. Hopefully BW & the pvp team can resolve this with what "they" think is a solution to this overpowered ability. No complete damage reductions were ever good for any ranked competitive pvp. If this isn't addressed you will most likely see a huge reroll of this class with threads to come after ranked warzones start. I trust the pvp team will be able to work it out.

[Yvin]

Hey everyone!

 

The previous version of this thread exceeded our post threshold and we've recreated it for continued discussion. Thanks to everyone who has been participating while keeping this thread on-topic, constructive and respectful of fellow community members! Please do continue your discourse in the same manner here.

 

Thank you!

[Tiber_Septim]

As soon as I witnessed how this ability was used, I called it "divine shield of WoW" and old thread pops right away at Google when searched like that. Hilarious.

 

I used to play a paladin in WoW and God, only if divine shield was anywhere as good as this. It cut down offense by half, was dispellable and could be used every FIVE minutes compared to 90 secs here! Every single fight, maras pop this and just kill people with 50hp. It's utterly ridiculous.

 

This game needs some serious balancing in PvP with tanking abilities on melee DPS. Imagine a fury warrior with 90 sec cd, non-dispellable, full offensive capability divine shield. Yeah. SWTOR has that.

[BiggDirty]

It's funny that this thread is being reset, because when it was first created, I re-rolled sentinel specifically because of this overpowered ability.

 

Here we are a month later, and my sentinel is level 50 in full champion gear, and this ability (Guarded by the Force) is every bit as overpowered as I always knew it was.

 

I run with a very good sage healer, and here is what happens in almost every single encounter.

 

I leap in, and put out devastating single target damage, always killing at least 1 person, and usually 2 people. When I get to about 2k health, I pop GbtF and my healer (who KNOWS I am going to do this) pops force potency and hits me with a double deliverance for 10k healing. At the same time, I pop my wz medpac for another 4500 health, bringing me from 5% to 90% health in the span of 3 seconds, all while being completely immune to damage. (yea I know it's 99%, ****)

 

I then continue to stomp people until my health again reaches 5%, at which point I pop force camo and my healer again hits me with a huge heal.

 

I'm now on my 3rd life, and if I'm lucky my GbtF is almost off CD, so I might get to do it all over again HOORAY!.... if not, no big deal, my healer will just use rescue on me and bring me behind the pillar for a chance at a 4th life, and if this is successful, my GbtF and Force Camo will both be off cooldown which gives me 2 more lives.

 

 

This class is massively overpowered because of these 2 cooldowns, but you are about to see 50 pages of noobs explaining that it's just "5 seconds and then you are dead, and you can be CC'd through it, learn to play lololol"

 

All of these sent/mara defenders are people who solo queue all day long and have no idea what it's like to have a pro healer with you on vent, capitalizing on your ridiculous ability to stay alive when every other class in the game would be dead.

[Temeluchus]

Thanks for necroing this, I had hoped it had finally died.

 

Go back through the original thread to see A. how unlike Pally bubble UR is B. how to recognize when UR is popped and the numerous ways to counter it and C. how UR is not OP.

 

@BiggDirty- I solo queue and also queue with a healer and I unquestionably do more damage and am more of a powerhouse with pocket heals. However, any class(ok maybe not Ops) are OP or powerhouses with a pocket heals.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Temeluchus

[Cempa]

Blizzard is bringing back pala Bubble+hearth...

 

...and while I am at it, Warlocks are OP again..

 

Go figure...

 

Subs drop to 10million so they go back to Vanilla!

Edited April 5, 2012 by Cempa

[Rheeling]

It's funny that this thread is being reset, because when it was first created, I re-rolled sentinel specifically because of this overpowered ability.

 

Here we are a month later, and my sentinel is level 50 in full champion gear, and this ability (Guarded by the Force) is every bit as overpowered as I always knew it was.

 

I run with a very good sage healer, and here is what happens in almost every single encounter.

 

I leap in, and put out devastating single target damage, always killing at least 1 person, and usually 2 people. When I get to about 2k health, I pop GbtF and my healer (who KNOWS I am going to do this) pops force potency and hits me with a double deliverance for 10k healing. At the same time, I pop my wz medpac for another 4500 health, bringing me from 5% to 90% health in the span of 3 seconds, all while being completely immune to damage. (yea I know it's 99%, ****)

 

I then continue to stomp people until my health again reaches 5%, at which point I pop force camo and my healer again hits me with a huge heal.

 

I'm now on my 3rd life, and if I'm lucky my GbtF is almost off CD, so I might get to do it all over again HOORAY!.... if not, no big deal, my healer will just use rescue on me and bring me behind the pillar for a chance at a 4th life, and if this is successful, my GbtF and Force Camo will both be off cooldown which gives me 2 more lives.

 

 

This class is massively overpowered because of these 2 cooldowns, but you are about to see 50 pages of noobs explaining that it's just "5 seconds and then you are dead, and you can be CC'd through it, learn to play lololol"

 

All of these sent/mara defenders are people who solo queue all day long and have no idea what it's like to have a pro healer with you on vent, capitalizing on your ridiculous ability to stay alive when every other class in the game would be dead.

 

The only reason this ability could ever be considered too strong is because of the situation you mentioned: A great healer who's got you on focus.

 

They'll have to heal you constantly if you're in a group because you'll get shred up even with Saber Ward and the cloak up if any more than 2 people are targeting you. And like you said, if you pop 2 cool downs in succession, i.e. Guarded by the Force and Force Camo, they can bring you back to full because you had 9 seconds of immunity essentially.

 

High dps class being spam healed puts out high dps, who would've thought. You know what would make this story a lot different? If the other people who were attacking you would've attacked your healer instead. "But we queue with a tank too!" Well, if that's the case, that's a completely different discussion.

[Omophorus]

So what we've learned today is that a pocket healer (pre-1.2 sorc/sage, no less) makes Marauder/Sentinel overpowered.

 

Neat.

 

I wonder what a pocket healer (a pre-1.2 sage, no less) would do for any other class.

 

The same thing, you say? Amaaaaaaazing.

 

p.s. BioWare did it right by nerfing 100% damage reduction on Force Camo and leaving Undying Rage untouched.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Omophorus

[Xerain]

i wish i could pop a bubble that made me immune to all damage and i could heal up during it.

[LiveandDieinLA]

****Conclusion****

 

After 60+ pages and 17000+ views it has been concluded that a damage reduction perhaps isn't needed. The hp loss penalty as is isn't a penalty. Making it so a 99% healing reduction was added to this ability would fix the penalty so it would be working as intended. There hasn't been one mara/sent that has been able to debate this properly without using l2p scenarios. I urge the pvp team to consider this. For organized pvp this is one small step to an overall balance. Sure there are other issues that need to be attended to but clearly this has gotten the attention its deserved to be looked into. Hopefully BW & the pvp team can resolve this with what "they" think is a solution to this overpowered ability. No complete damage reductions were ever good for any ranked competitive pvp. If this isn't addressed you will most likely see a huge reroll of this class with threads to come after ranked warzones start. I trust the pvp team will be able to work it out.

 

Hey man, do you do freelance work? The Presidential campaign is coming up and I'm sure either candidate would love to have someone with such an incredible ability to ignore logical arguments and state their opinions as facts working for them. You could probably make a bunch of cash, and prove that Obama has either destroyed the economy, or saved it!

[BiggDirty]

High dps class being spam healed puts out high dps, who would've thought.

 

This is where your, and everyone else's logic fails.

 

My healer isn't keeping me alive with spam heals. If that was the case, I wouldn't be at 5% health IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

The reason I am at 5% health is because I am being focused, and my healer cannot keep up with the damage output.

 

In this scenario, these other high dps classes you are speaking of, would be DEAD 100% of the time.

 

Guardian - dead

Shadow - might live, but they are OP too so that's another discussion.

Scoundrel - dead

Gunslinger - dead

Commando - dead

Vanguard - dead

Sage - dead

 

Sentinel - STILL ALIVE and putting out huge damage with 5 stacks of Juyo, and multiple zens.

 

People will say "well it's only OP in THAT specific situation".

 

LOL - This "situation" occurs 50 times per warzone, because these abilities are on such a stupidly low cooldown.

 

It's all good though guys, I am one of you now! Let's keep this a secret GbtF and force camo are totally fine, we NEED them we are so bad!

[Rheeling]

i wish i could pop a bubble that made me immune to all damage and i could heal up during it.

 

Well, even Marauders can't. They can pop a bubble and hope that the pug healer they're with heals them (but probably won't because a pug healer will assume someone at 5% health is a lost cause), or they can ask their premade healer to heal them on the mic.

 

Coincidentally, there are other classes who can essentially do the same thing, it just takes 2 cooldowns to reach 5 seconds of near immunity.

 

Assassins have a couple cooldowns they could pop back to back to be pretty untouchable while they get healed up.

 

Operatives can use Dodge and Shield Probe to reach roughly 5 seconds of immunity.

 

A real tanky Vanguard can pop Reactive Shield + Adrenaline Rush and essentially won't take real damage. Granted, a Vanguard isn't going to pop Reactive Shield at 10% health most likely, unless they can use Adrenaline Rush along with it, and a healer is near-by.

 

Those are just a few examples off the top off my head. Sure, other classes don't have abilities who's tool-tip matches Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force, but there are ways to achieve the same result.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Rheeling

[BiggDirty]

So what we've learned today is that a pocket healer (pre-1.2 sorc/sage, no less) makes Marauder/Sentinel overpowered.

 

Neat.

 

I wonder what a pocket healer (a pre-1.2 sage, no less) would do for any other class.

 

The same thing, you say? Amaaaaaaazing.

 

p.s. BioWare did it right by nerfing 100% damage reduction on Force Camo and leaving Undying Rage untouched.

 

Case in point.

 

Pocket healers can keep ANY class alive through focus fire where people are putting out 30k damage in 8 seconds. Suuuuuuuuuure.

[Foxcolt]

Hey man, do you do freelance work? The Presidential campaign is coming up and I'm sure either candidate would love to have someone with such an incredible ability to ignore logical arguments and state their opinions as facts working for them. You could probably make a bunch of cash, and prove that Obama has either destroyed the economy, or saved it!

 

See'ing as guy can't type coherent paragraphs to save his life..he'd prolly get fired pretty quick imo.

 

Pally bubble is fine..l2p newbs

[SKiZOTT]

Deleted for wrong thread. Edited April 5, 2012 by SKiZOTT

[Rheeling]

I don't think UR is that big of a deal, it saved my life a few times, but smart play and positioning will do that more often than any other ability.

 

But, if something was going to be changed about it, I think it would be fair to reduce all incoming healing by 99% for the duration.

 

Or, better yet, make it require 30 stacks of Fury to use.

[SKiZOTT]

Blizzard is bringing back pala Bubble+hearth...

 

...and while I am at it, Warlocks are OP again..

 

Go figure...

 

Subs drop to 10million so they go back to Vanilla!

 

Vanilla? Warlocks weren't OP in vanilla... That was Shaman, Wind Fury + Storm Strike + Earth Shock with Hand of Ragnaros / The Unstoppable Force... gg

[Temeluchus]

This is where your, and everyone else's logic fails.

 

My healer isn't keeping me alive with spam heals. If that was the case, I wouldn't be at 5% health IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

The reason I am at 5% health is because I am being focused, and my healer cannot keep up with the damage output.

 

In this scenario, these other high dps classes you are speaking of, would be DEAD 100% of the time.

 

Guardian - dead

Shadow - might live, but they are OP too so that's another discussion.

Scoundrel - dead

Gunslinger - dead

Commando - dead

Vanguard - dead

Sage - dead

 

Sentinel - STILL ALIVE and putting out huge damage with 5 stacks of Juyo, and multiple zens.

 

People will say "well it's only OP in THAT specific situation".

 

LOL - This "situation" occurs 50 times per warzone, because these abilities are on such a stupidly low cooldown.

 

It's all good though guys, I am one of you now! Let's keep this a secret GbtF and force camo are totally fine, we NEED them we are so bad!

 

Maybe one of these days you'll land in a WZ where people aren't all bad and they'll focus your pocket healer instead of you, easily negating your UR/Force Camo. Heck, someone may even CC you when you pop UR and *gasp* burn your pocket healer down.

 

Sure, you get to live a bit longer or maybe even get healed back up to full...against people that don't know what they are doing and this may happen 50 times a WZ. However, you may get into the situation I described and find out that you and your pocket healer are just as easily killed,CCed and negated as any other class by a person or persons with an ounce of skill or some semblance of tactics.

[JustinxDuff]

Our dmg reduction only lasts 5 seconds and a stun lasts 4. If you are letting us run around and do damage while we have our shield up then you are doing it wrong.

[Paxraven]

I cant believe this travesty of a thread was necroed.

 

Maurauders and Sentinels are fairly balanced (if a bit higher on diffuculty learning intially)

 

Undying rage is fine if your smart enough not to waste dps on them wait out the abilty when its up then roll them when its down.

 

/lock thread.

[dannomite]

Never had a problem going up against this ability. The lower health they're at, the smaller the health cost, but their chances of still dying to even with a massive damage reduction grow. If they're that low to start, then they don't have that great of healing on them, so that argument is moot. CC them until it runs out and then finish them off with a love tap. If there is a healer with him, it becomes a matter of CC/interrupt coordination. (Assuming you're not alone... if that's the case, you shouldn't complain about dying to any 2+v1 combination)

[BiggDirty]

Our dmg reduction only lasts 5 seconds and a stun lasts 4. If you are letting us run around and do damage while we have our shield up then you are doing it wrong.

 

Yes, because doing damage during GbtF is the issue here. You win at reading comprehension.

 

What happens after your 4 second stun, when I am back at 100% health?

 

Ahh just kill my healer, why didn't I think of that.

 

So, just because an organized premade full of skilled players can negate this ability, that means it's totally fine the other 99% of the time where people just tunnel vision on me while my healer gets me back up to full?

 

Whether people want to admit it or not, getting focused and dying is a massive part of this game, and sentinels are the only class in the game with a counter to it. A counter which is ridiculously easy to execute, and is on a short cooldown.

[BiggDirty]

*blah*

 

I just noticed you are on my server. Figures that I've NEVER seen you before. Like I said, the only people who think this ability is fine, are noobs with no experience in high level play.

 

There needs to be a 99% healing reduction, end of story.

[JustinxDuff]

Yes, because doing damage during GbtF is the issue here. You win at reading comprehension.

 

What happens after your 4 second stun, when I am back at 100% health?

 

Ahh just kill my healer, why didn't I think of that.

 

So, just because an organized premade full of skilled players can negate this ability, that means it's totally fine the other 99% of the time where people just tunnel vision on me while my healer gets me back up to full?

 

Whether people want to admit it or not, getting focused and dying is a massive part of this game, and sentinels are the only class in the game with a counter to it. A counter which is ridiculously easy to execute, and is on a short cooldown.

 

You don't need a premade to negate this ability. If a mara is about to go down you should assume hes going to pop UR. You should be killing his healer anyways.

 

We are also the only class in the game to have no hard CC: No stun, no knockback, no push, no pull.

 

Let the tears flow, I shall ride them on my ship come rated WZs.

[Ahhmyface]

It's the best defensive ability in the game, period.

 

It's a damn "lol watch me heal while u cant do anything" button, and as such, is stupid.

 

If it were a jugg ability, I wouldn't even blink. Not on a dps class, ffs. Combined with stealth its just so op.