Seriasx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I have to wonder why you're playing a MMORPG. I don't know what games you have been playing, but in every MMORPG I've played character progression and gear was a major factor in PvP and part of the competition. Personally I would prefer a system that increases a character's innate stats for wins and penalizes them for losses; so they would actually have to win more than lose in order to progress. But I digress... Yeah I have as well, except those pvp games with gear progression had winning and losing mean something so casuals were able to compete with people who play more often, the ones who played more often were simply given more rolls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Then remove gear progression from pvp, having one group "no lifers" have a massive advantage to aquire the gear by being logged in more often then people with families and careers is not working. Maybe you should step back and realize that this game is not for you. That MMO doesn't suit your lifestyle and playstyle. Because there is a reason why this game is a gear progression MMO. It makes the most money. This game will always have gear progression UNLESS there is a system that is not gear progression based that can make the same money through subscription. Unfortunately, there isn't one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gennek Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) You should have spent the last 3 levels for PvP only...I actualy got 6 bags when I hit 50. Edited March 22, 2012 by Gennek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeopardydd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I dont want to be given gear, as I've said before my toon could be using a green rake and khakis for all I care, what I and others want is for gear to be removed from the pvp equation. I dont want to beat someone because I have better items on my toon I dont want to be walked over because someone put better items on his toon I want the closest possible matches as often as possible so I can actually enjoy myself, walking over ungeared people is not fun, there is no enjoyment in being either party in that situation. If BW cant make gear progression for pvp that is fair for people who can play once in awhile vs. people who play 6+ hours per day then I dont want it, its just not fun for anyone. well said. I also would personally like for less dichotomy between pvp and pve gear. I think it would be great if people who primarily pve could have some fun with pvp from time to time, and vice versa. being able to do more in a game is a good thing, so why put up limits like that? that would make the waits shorter as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeopardydd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 This game is a WoW Clone. Maybe you should go back to DAOC maybe there will be less whiners in here. ahh, so we shouldn't be able to ever suggest any deviations from wow in the forums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriasx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Maybe you should step back and realize that this game is not for you. That MMO doesn't suit your lifestyle and playstyle. Because there is a reason why this game is a gear progression MMO. It makes the most money. This game will always have gear progression UNLESS there is a system that is not gear progression based that can make the same money through subscription. Unfortunately, there isn't one. Well whos it for then? Cause it looks to me like people who want pvp gear progression are the minority. They would have to be the minority since new 50s, casuals and hardcore pvpers alike want gear to play little or no role in deciding the outcome in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindsplitter Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 ITT: battlemasters tell players to deal with it when they got geared before 50s had their own bracket. QFT: PvP post 49 is the suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 DAOC had already lost close to 40% of their subscribers by the time WOW came out due to TOA(gear grind and pve grind with major impact on pvp), and new frontiers(more pve, dumbing down of classes, and new "features" taken from wow now that their game was nothing more than a gear based pvp game). Not really. TOA came out Oct 28 and WoW came out Nov 23. Players in daoc haven't fully discovered and played all through TOA to get an opinion yet. WoW killed daoc. Just admit it. Most players that went to WoW never came back to Daoc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursuul Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 This game is a WoW Clone. Maybe you should go back to DAOC maybe there will be less whiners in here. your wish is granted... kinda. Guild Wars 2 is coming. Hmmm I wonder what will happen when the servers lose the PvP players....meh, im sure the game will be fine. Population IS booming after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Well whos it for then? Cause it looks to me like people who want pvp gear progression are the minority. They would have to be the minority since new 50s, casuals and hardcore pvpers alike want gear to play little or no role in deciding the outcome in pvp. Not according to the numbers. If you look at pvp based MMO like daoc, warhammer, planetside, guildwars, and etc, those offer more skill based pvp than gear based but their numbers are decreasing while gear based pvp like Warcraft, and SWTOR have lots of subscribers. So skill based pvp is really a minority and not the majority. Besides, you have two 50s and a level 30. You have enough time to grind gear. your wish is granted... kinda. Guild Wars 2 is coming. Hmmm I wonder what will happen when the servers lose the PvP players....meh, im sure the game will be fine. Population IS booming after all. I will actually play guildwars 2 but will not buy it asap. But it will not put a dent on swtor pvp. Maybe in for 1 month only. It will be like guild wars 1, people will buy it because it is shiny then they will realize there is nothing improving their char and quit it like most fps, and console fighting games. Honestly, guild wars 2 is basically guild wars 1 with planetside map put in it. I really doubt it is going to be really good. Been there and done that. But since it doesn't have a subscription, I don't mind buying it. Edited March 22, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeopardydd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 You should have spent the last 3 levels for PvP only...I actualy got 6 backs when I hit 50. i had 1000/1000 saved up and a bag in my cargo hold...and that isn't even enough for one Champ belt. (7 times 6 is 32, it's 44 for something like a basic Champ belt). it's enough for a few Cent pieces that get you, what, like 1.5% expertise. yeah, like that really changes anything..... not to mention the fact that if you have to skip all that game content the last 3 levels to even get that much...and probably have investigated it first to even know to do that...then that's not a good game design, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexster Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Not that I would condone this behavior, but you can currently enter into a wz and afk away and hope your team pulls through without you. Wont make you any friends, and will probably trash your characters reputation on your server, but it has worked for many people already at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 i had 1000/1000 saved up and a bag in my cargo hold...and that isn't even enough for one Champ belt. (7 times 6 is 32, it's 44 for something like a basic Champ belt). it's enough for a few Cent pieces that get you, what, like 1.5% expertise. yeah, like that really changes anything..... not to mention the fact that if you have to skip all that game content the last 3 levels to even get that much...and probably have investigated it first to even know to do that...then that's not a good game design, imo. If you pvped for 1-2 levels at 40-49 then you can have SIX pvp enhancement mods which gives 150 expertise. Honestly, just pvp for 1 day. You can even get 4 medals and afk in one corner. Doesn't even matter since they are giving BM gear away for 1.2 war hero gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazookabill Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Rpg's are about character development and progression, you play to develop your character become better, faster ,stronger ... wait that was the bionic man... You take the sense of progression away you remove the incentive to play. Games like lotro tried having the best gear craftable, you crafted your gear and had no reason to log on again and unsubbed. Guild wars you could get the best gear right away incentive to play gone .. and that was free to play gave my account to a friends kid. Every gamers bookshelf is full of games they beat the boss on "finished the game" and have no desire to play again. No matter what anyone says when they have nothing to attain anymore people will quit this game, hand out all the best gear in a week, don't make anyone work for anything. It will backfire. People think they know what they want, when they get it, its going to be " this game is boring ... theres nothing to do." If you think different your fooling yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriasx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Not according to the numbers. If you look at pvp based MMO like daoc, warhammer, planetside, guildwars, and etc, those offer more skill based pvp than gear based but their numbers are decreasing while gear based pvp like Warcraft, and SWTOR have lots of subscribers. So skill based pvp is really a minority and not the majority. Besides, you have two 50s and a level 30. You have enough time to grind gear. My 50s are geared, I've walked over many ungeared opponents on various occasions, its not fun for me. I cant learn anything from dying to someone who out geared me just like I cannot learn anything from walking over people. Basically right now gear trumps everything, oh you have alot of insight on swtor game mechanics? Maybe you know which stats are best for your toon, maybe you took the time to learn the basics or more of what every classes abilities are including their various specs, maybe you are smart enough to see whats happening around you on a battlefield while performing your role, all of these should be what decides the outcome along with group composition, but guess what? All of those are far behind gear when it comes to winning and losing in pvp. If this was an mmo where those factors > gear then there would be little or no care about pvp gear progression because you could overcome the gear disparity by just being better at your toon. I've played pvp games where I could walk over entire groups on my dps specd healer because I knew all of those factors, in swtor you cannot overcome gear with strategy and knowledge. Yeah sure having both helps, but until knowledge > gear we will continue having massive issues in swtor where people who log in all the time have a massive advantage over casuals, pvp should not work like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriasx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Rpg's are about character development and progression, you play to develop your character become better, faster ,stronger ... wait that was the bionic man... You take the sense of progression away you remove the incentive to play. Games like lotro tried having the best gear craftable, you crafted your gear and had no reason to log on again and unsubbed. Guild wars you could get the best gear right away incentive to play gone .. and that was free to play gave my account to a friends kid. Every gamers bookshelf is full of games they beat the boss on "finished the game" and have no desire to play again. No matter what anyone says when they have nothing to attain anymore people will quit this game, hand out all the best gear in a week, don't make anyone work for anything. It will backfire. People think they know what they want, when they get it, its going to be " this game is boring ... theres nothing to do." If you think different your fooling yourself. I see character progression as learning how everything works, from your current toon, to your opponents toon, to whats happening around you on the battlefield to group composition and game mechanics. That is progression, opening a box and right clicking it onto your toon is not progression in my eyes it ruins progression as it adds a non skill factor to the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Yeah sure having both helps, but until knowledge > gear we will continue having massive issues in swtor where people who log in all the time have a massive advantage over casuals, pvp should not work like this. Unfortunately that is the nature of gear progression MMO. Which I've been telling you that this is really not your game because it will always have gear progression. Gear will always be a huge factor. This is a pve game with pvp as an after thought. It has the gear progression model because it will make the most MONEY. Is it more fun? Is it more competitive? More skills? Probably not. But it is the MODEL that will definitely make the MOST MONEY. Like I said, this is a gear progression MMO. Everything that you hate about pvp will be in here where gear is a big factor and players will have to grind gear in order to be competitive. This game has EVERYTHING YOU HATE. It is not the game for you because it will never change. It will never change because MONEY > FUN. Edited March 22, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeopardydd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 If you pvped for 1-2 levels at 40-49 then you can have SIX pvp enhancement mods which gives 150 expertise. Honestly, just pvp for 1 day. You can even get 4 medals and afk in one corner. Doesn't even matter since they are giving BM gear away for 1.2 war hero gear. a) I had a little expertise, but not much (i had an expertise lightsaber. b) I don't even know what you are talking about re: the pvp mods, and I've done a lot more reading about this game than most people. it's a very unreasonable expectation to have that people need to go hunting for that sort of information to make it a little less horrible to pvp at level 50. the vast majority of players don't and won't do that and that's no answer to the criticism that the gear gap is too big. it's also pretty unreasonable to have people save up so many token in advance to lessen the horribleness a little. again, most people aren't going to do it, aren't going to know to do it, and will be unwilling to forgo so much of the higher-level game content that Bioware spent so much time and money on to do that. and even if a person does it perfectly, they are STILL at a big disadvantage and it's STILL a horrible experience for anybody who relishes a competitive game. and for what? so some people can keep their big advantage in gear rather than having to beat people on skill alone? please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeopardydd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Unfortunately that is the nature of gear progression MMO. Which I've been telling you that this is really not your game because it will always have gear progression. Gear will always be a huge factor. This is a pve game with pvp as an after thought. It has the gear progression model because it will make the most MONEY. Is it more fun? Is it more competitive? More skills? Probably not. But it is the MODEL that will definitely make the MOST MONEY. Like I said, this is a gear progression MMO. Everything that you hate about pvp will be in here where gear is a big factor and players will have to grind gear in order to be competitive. This game has EVERYTHING YOU HATE. It is not the game for you because it will never change. It will never change because MONEY > FUN. what we are saying is that it SHOULD NOT be about gear progression. in no way should people just shut up about something they don't like because it's currently or even will always be, that way. if that were the case, there would only be about 2 threads in the forums. i suspect that the "stop talking about it because it will always be this way" is the last refuge of somebody who can't make reasonable arguments to justify the state of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Well I agree with the big gear disparity from fresh 50 to battlemaster but it is always going to be like that. But they are introducing ways to lessen the gear gap in 1.2 where players can use credits to get champion gear and so on. Which is probably a waste of money when BM gear is so easily attainable. what we are saying is that it SHOULD NOT be about gear progression. in no way should people just shut up about something they don't like because it's currently or even will always be, that way. if that were the case, there would only be about 2 threads in the forums. i suspect that the "stop talking about it because it will always be this way" is the last refuge of somebody who can't make reasonable arguments to justify the state of things. I know what you are saying but do you understand what I'm saying. In fact I agree with you, skill based pvp is more fun, more casual friendly, and have better pvp experience. But do you understand what I'm saying? GEAR PROGRESSION MMO/PVP MAKES THE MOST MONEY. So no matter how much you convince people that no gear progression is a lot of fun, a lot better, and great, we will never ever going to have a no gear progression SWTOR for the simple facts that grinding = retaining MORE subscribers No grind = MORE quitting These two FACTS have been proven for a long time for dozens and various MMO. No amount of opinion nor statements will change it. Edited March 22, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeopardydd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Rpg's are about character development and progression, you play to develop your character become better, faster ,stronger ... wait that was the bionic man... You take the sense of progression away you remove the incentive to play. Games like lotro tried having the best gear craftable, you crafted your gear and had no reason to log on again and unsubbed. Guild wars you could get the best gear right away incentive to play gone .. and that was free to play gave my account to a friends kid. Every gamers bookshelf is full of games they beat the boss on "finished the game" and have no desire to play again. No matter what anyone says when they have nothing to attain anymore people will quit this game, hand out all the best gear in a week, don't make anyone work for anything. It will backfire. People think they know what they want, when they get it, its going to be " this game is boring ... theres nothing to do." If you think different your fooling yourself. I have no problem with progression. I have a problem with pvp gear progression. the two aren't necessarily the same thing. also, pvp gear progression is ultimately self-defeating, as the gear gap will have to get bigger and bigger over time to keep it "progressing", thus making the problem worse and worse and keeping away other people from starting and enjoying pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeopardydd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) ... grinding = retaining MORE subscribers No grind = MORE quitting These two FACTS have been proven for a long time for dozens and various MMO. No amount of opinion nor statements will change it. they advertised this game as "ending the grind". that was supposed to be the point of the game. furthermore, your sample size for the declaration is exactly 1 game. non-grinding games have failed and grindy games have failed. you cannot deduce from the success of wow that that only a game just like it in every important aspect can be successful. Edited March 22, 2012 by Jeopardydd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 also, pvp gear progression is ultimately self-defeating, as the gear gap will have to get bigger and bigger over time to keep it "progressing", thus making the problem worse and worse and keeping away other people from starting and enjoying pvp. That is not true. For example, we have If we add another tier then it will be WarHero, BM, Champion, and Centurion. Technically, what you are saying is true if nothing changes. But that isn't the case. Everytime they add a new tier of gear, the previous gear becomes easily attainable which is exactly what we are having right now. So WarHero will be the new Battlemaster gear and Champion will be the new introductory gear. When they introduce another set, then the last 4 will become even easier to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) they advertised this game as "ending the grind". that was supposed to be the point of the game. furthermore, your sample size for the declaration is exactly 1 game. non-grinding games have failed and grindy games have failed. you cannot deduce from the success of wow that that only a game just like it in every important aspect can be successful. EQ beats shadowbane, daoc, and every other MMO in its time. WoW beats every MMO that came out and every pvp MMO that came out. We have swtor which is copying WoW and EQ. So it has already been proven that Gear progression MMO makes the most money in any timeline in the history of MMO. There is no such thing as ending the gear grind from what we can see and know of the future patches of SWTOR. Edited March 22, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeopardydd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 That is not true. For example, we have If we add another tier then it will be WarHero, BM, Champion, and Centurion. Technically, what you are saying is true if nothing changes. But that isn't the case. Everytime they add a new tier of gear, the previous gear becomes easily attainable which is exactly what we are having right now. So WarHero will be the new Battlemaster gear and Champion will be the new introductory gear. When they introduce another set, then the last 4 will become even easier to achieve. then that's not even progression. it's false progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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