The Myth of the SW:ToR Story; No it can't support an MMO.

[Dezzi]

The choices and consequences are still pre-made

 

Of course they are, but that's not the point. Even if I only get three doors to choose from, the fact that I get to choose one at all (and assuming they each lead to a different outcome) makes me feel like I'm telling my own story. I made a choice that had an outcome.

 

Games have done this. TOR originally did this. But players were squeamish, so they backed down from it. Apparently completely.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Dezzi

[Nyla]

Of course they are, but that's not the point. Even if I only get three doors to choose from, the fact that I get to choose one (and assuming they each lead to a different outcome), I feel like I'm telling my own story.

 

Games have done this. TOR originally did this. But players were squeamish, so they backed down from it. Apparently completely.

 

Well it's kinda the point in that it's never really your story has everything (the choices and the outcomes) was made by someone else.

 

And btw, the different outcomes exist in TOR in many different places, I don't know how you can miss it.

[Dezzi]

Well it's kinda the point in that it's never really your story has everything (the choices and the outcomes) was made by someone else.

 

And btw, the different outcomes exist in TOR in many different places, I don't know how you can miss it.

 

I've been playing the game since August and have yet to find an instance where my choices had consequences that affected the path of the story. Having played a Dark Side bounty hunter and now a Light Side bounty hunter (of different advanced classes), I have not encountered anything different beyond the dialogue.

 

If these choices exist, I'd like to know where you found them. Really.

[Cernow]

Well it's kinda the point in that it's never really your story has everything (the choices and the outcomes) was made by someone else.

 

And btw, the different outcomes exist in TOR in many different places, I don't know how you can miss it.

 

Give some examples where there is a truly different outcome and where there are consequences beyond just getting an alternative title or email in your inbox.

[Goretzu]

Give some examples where there is a truly different outcome and where there are consequences beyond just getting an alternative title or email in your inbox.

 

 

I'm amazed no one has asked for a SWTOR perma-death server, must be the first MMORPG that hasn't happen on (or I've missed it/forgot about it).

[Nyla]

I've been playing the game since August and have yet to find an instance where my choices had consequences that affected the path of the story. Having played a Dark Side bounty hunter and now a Light Side bounty hunter (of different advanced classes), I have not encountered anything different beyond the dialogue.

 

If these choices exist, I'd like to know where you found them. Really.

 

So dialogues are different but it's the same story ?

 

Sorry but no.

 

The bad guy tells me he puts dangerous implants into people.

My general tells me to kill them all.

I agree.

I kill them.

My general tell me I did a good job

 

The bad guy tells me he puts dangerous implants into people.

My general tells me to kill them all.

I disagree.

She insists.

I talk to them and decide to let them go.

My general is angry and tells me to follow orders and stop disobeying.

 

You will probably say it's the same story, it's not.

[Nyla]

Give some examples where there is a truly different outcome and where there are consequences beyond just getting an alternative title or email in your inbox.

 

In which video game there is ?

[GavinPatterson]

i'd sooner have story over a damn ugly grind like wow

[Cernow]

I'm amazed no one has asked for a SWTOR perma-death server, must be the first MMORPG that hasn't happen on (or I've missed it/forgot about it).

 

No-one is talking about or asking for perma death. Just asking for some real and tangible consequences for in-game decisions.

 

I wonder if the true reason people are so allergic to it is because of the reload culture so prevalent in gaming today. In RPGs like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Deus Ex etc you can quick save before every major fight and decision (even half way through a boss fight in some games). So if you don't like the outcome, you reload and try again. Nothing is permanent, you never have to live with your choices. And so when it comes to MMOs, where there is no way to save and reload, devs run scared of players not liking the consequences of their choices and water everything down so we all get the same, with a little bit of cosmetic fluff to make it appear we had a choice.

[Dezzi]

So dialogues are different but it's the same story ?

 

Sorry but no.

 

The bad guy tells me he puts dangerous implants into people.

My general tells me to kill them all.

I agree.

I kill them.

My general tell me I did a good job

 

The bad guy tells me he puts dangerous implants into people.

My general tells me to kill them all.

I disagree.

She insists.

I talk to them and decide to let them go.

My general is angry and tells me to follow orders and stop disobeying.

 

You will probably say it's the same story, it's not.

 

It is the same story, but only because those dialogue choices impact you at that moment and not beyond.

 

If you noticed, characters that you choose to save or kill were already written out of the game after the dialogue that includes them--regardless of whether or not you're going to save or kill them. For example, if I'm given the choice to kill a bounty target or not, that person is never going to show up or be mentioned again anyway. So what does it matter?

 

That's not choice. That's not even the illusion of choice. Why?

 

Because there are no consequences. If I decided to spare that target, what a surprise it would be to see them working with me--or against me--later on. In that moment I will feel like I did something, that the choices I made on the little dialogue wheel actually mattered.

 

Unfortunately, that's not how this game works, and it's already been stated why in this thread. Which is a shame, because this game touts story as it's prime feature. I agree, but it's not my story (as they claim it is).

Edited March 22, 2012 by Dezzi

[Goretzu]

No-one is talking about or asking for perma death. Just asking for some real and tangible consequences for in-game decisions.

 

I wonder if the true reason people are so allergic to it is because of the reload culture so prevalent in gaming today. In RPGs like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Deus Ex etc you can quick save before every major fight and decision (even half way through a boss fight in some games). So if you don't like the outcome, you reload and try again. Nothing is permanent, you never have to live with your choices. And so when it comes to MMOs, where there is no way to save and reload, devs run scared of players not liking the consequences of their choices and water everything down so we all get the same, with a little bit of cosmetic fluff to make it appear we had a choice.

 

No I'm not saying they are, I'm just saying I'm amazed no one has asked for it.

[Dezzi]

In which video game there is ?

 

I already posted in response to your question. Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 both have player choice with consequence (I haven't played 3). Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (to a lesser extent) have player choice with consequence.

 

Video games have been doing this for ages now; it's not a new thing and these are only recent examples.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Dezzi

[Galbatorrix]

So dialogues are different but it's the same story ?

 

Sorry but no.

 

The bad guy tells me he puts dangerous implants into people.

My general tells me to kill them all.

I agree.

I kill them.

My general tell me I did a good job

 

The bad guy tells me he puts dangerous implants into people.

My general tells me to kill them all.

I disagree.

She insists.

I talk to them and decide to let them go.

My general is angry and tells me to follow orders and stop disobeying.

 

You will probably say it's the same story, it's not.

 

 

 

Exactly. If you're playing light side or dark side, the cut scenes, reactions, etc will all change. Yes, you'll still end up at the same destination regardless, but the roads themselves and especially the scenery on the way was much different. That's plenty choice in my book.

[Galbatorrix]

I already posted in response to your question. Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 both have player choice with consequences (I haven't played 3). Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (to a lesser extent) have player choice with consequence.

 

Video games have been doing this for ages now; it's not a new thing and these are only recent examples.

 

 

 

Those are all single player games. This is an MMO. Completely different set of rules involved.

[dashspeed]

Actually they took the RPG out, you dont roleplay and create your character, you are told a story, Bioware claims that it is my story but it is not, its Biowares story.

 

SIGHHHH

 

What is WRONG with you!?

 

If you want your OWN story so badly, then go outside and make your life. Otherwise, you WILL ALWAYS BE CONFINED to a game's story. No matter what the game is. This really isn't new. It's like expecting to save Zelda in a Mario game.

Edited March 22, 2012 by dashspeed

[Dezzi]

Those are all single player games. This is an MMO. Completely different set of rules involved.

 

No one is saying anything to the contrary. But if BioWare wants to tout that they brought single-player story experience to an MMO (which they are claiming), then they should do it completely. The fact is they short-changed themselves.

 

I'm not the one saying BioWare didn't make this game for story-story-story. They did, and in it's own, limited way, it's fun. What I am saying is that they missed the mark in a meaningful way.

 

Falling back on the "it's an MMO so it's different" is a very convenient excuse...

Edited March 22, 2012 by Dezzi

[Nyla]

I already posted in response to your question. Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 both have player choice with consequence (I haven't played 3). Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (to a lesser extent) have player choice with consequence.

 

Video games have been doing this for ages now; it's not a new thing and these are only recent examples.

 

But the things is my choices in ME1 don't matter, you are still pushed to the same end and thoses little choices you made in ME1 that are taken into account in ME2 don't matter either.

[Cernow]

In which video game there is ?

 

Answering a question with a question is deflection. Nevertheless ....

 

There's lots, but to name two of Bioware's own titles: Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Both of these series have some major decisions to make which do have permanent consequences. Things you need to actually think about. I won't give specifics because of spoilers.

 

Currently there's a huge controversy about the ending of Mass Effect 3 because it actually breaks these principles of consequence and choice that were so strong throughout the series as a whole. It's as if ultimately all those player decisions amounted to nothing. Seems to be a trend with where Bioware are going with their storytelling.

[Nyla]

Answering a question with a question is deflection. Nevertheless ....

 

There's lots, but to name two of Bioware's own titles: Mass Effect and Dragon Age. Both of these series have some major decisions to make which do have permanent consequences. Things you need to actually think about. I won't give specifics because of spoilers.

 

Currently there's a huge controversy about the ending of Mass Effect 3 because it actually breaks these principles of consequence and choice that were so strong throughout the series as a whole. It's as if ultimately all those player decisions amounted to nothing. Seems to be a trend with where Bioware are going with their storytelling.

 

There's nothing new about it, they are telling their story, it's their cannon.

 

And btw I wrote a little of what happend in the Trooper story with different outcomes.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Nyla

[Dezzi]

But the things is my choices in ME1 don't matter, you are still pushed to the same end and thoses little choices you made in ME1 that are taken into account in ME2 don't matter either.

 

That's why I gave the example of Anakin. We know, when we start up Episode I, that he's going to fall to the Dark Side eventually. It has to happen. But the story between Episode I and that moment of his fall in Episode III is contained in the choices and the consequences of his actions that lead to the final conclusion.

 

For example, Anakin decided to go to Palpatine's office despite Windu ordering him not to. There are other ways to get him to that office, but was it really necessary for him to fall to the Dark Side? No. There are many ways for a character to fall to the Dark Side.

 

BioWare decided to offer you one path to the ending, with a smattering of different--and sometimes reused--dialogue.

 

I have to assume you're not aware that you can important your choices from Mass Effect 1 into Mass Effect 2. The game allows you to do that, and in fact encourages you to do so. They even created a video comic version of ME1 that let you make some of the major choices so your consequences could be carried over when you started ME2 (in case you didn't play ME1).

Edited March 22, 2012 by Dezzi

[ryathal]

The problem with the story in swtor is there isn't one. There are 8 unrelated stories going on that all happen to take place at the same time, oh and a war is starting if you really pay attention. There isn't anything happening to tie the story together. So when all the little stories end there is nothing else really going on, the empire and republic are supposedly in open war now, but there is little connection between the player and the war to provide a purpose at endgame. This is something that wow has done exceptionally well, there is always something for the player to be working towards at endgame, killing Illidan, Arthas, Deathwing. Swtor lacks that single enemy/faction to state as goal in a single sentence that is required to have a true sense of purpose in a game.

[Ichikitsune]

It is still very soon to tell. I give them credit for DARING to do what no other MMO has done; put back RPG into MMORPG. But a few promises have been broken.

 

Non-linear questing isn't that non-linear, though there is some diversity. Of course having to deal with multiple branches is too much, so I understand.

The possibility of companions backstabbing me. Is it possible or taken out?

The leveling experience will not be the same once you roll a new alt. Well true for class stories, but the generic missions are still the same.

 

So I'm not some fanboy that automatically thinks this MMO is perfect. It's more like I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I am particularly impressed with social points. I leveled with someone at the start and it was fun watching each other's class stories. It was also fun participating in conversations. It didn't feel like 2 people doing 2 separate quests. It felt like 2 people being part of the same quest.

 

And when you have a 4 people handing in the mission, hoho, it felt like 4 heroes who just defeated the evil enemy. I just wish that after clearing a hard mission, I can buy my 3 comrades a round of drinks at the cantina on a job well done. But it isn't possible.

 

So a lot of potential is there. I guess the initial promises were too much to keep, but I give them A for effort.

 

What class do you play? I had a companion backstab me......wish I could've killed him though, that would have been nice to been able to do that?

[Nyla]

That's why I gave the example of Anakin. We know, when we start up Episode I, that he's going to fall to the Dark Side eventually. It has to happen. But the story between Episode I and that moment of his fall in Episode III is contained in the choices and consequences (deciding to go to Palpatine's office despite Windu's orders) that lead him to that final conclusion.

 

I have to assume you're not aware that you can important your choices from Mass Effect 1 into Mass Effect 2. The game allows you to do that, and in fact encourages you to do so. They even created a video comic version of ME1 that let you make some of the major choices so your consequences could be carried over when you started ME2 (in case you didn't play ME1).

 

I'm perfectly aware of it, did it and even played with the little exe someone made to create ME1 files to import in ME2.

 

The choices you make in ME1 have no real consequence in ME2

[Andryah]

Dont play a story driven MMO if you dont like the story.

 

/Signed.

 

Seriously, if you like a game play it. If not, move on to something you like. This constant contrived whining is silly, tedious, and provides no constructive dialog. It's just whine bait.

[Dezzi]

I'm perfectly aware of it, did it and even played with the little exe someone made to create ME1 files to import in ME2.

 

The choices you make in ME1 have no real consequence in ME2

 

 

So the whole Ashley/Kaiden thing wasn't a choice that carried over...

 

We're talking about Mass Effect, right?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Dezzi