Will 1.2 bring a larger player base?

[Narny]

And the most important part you skimmed over, 600k credits.

 

Meaning you don't get a guild bank till someone is level 50. Leaving anyone who want's to start a guild for leveling and collaboration is left out.

 

To be honest, we never needed one until we had a number of 50's. We now find ourselves gearing up to get ready to raid. Mats can be shared, we can drop items in for members to pick up when they log in etc etc. The 600k or even a mill for the 2nd tab isn't all that much. Few of our guildies had 4m credits at level 20 just through selling stuff, slicing missions etc etc. I myself didn't, but I know at least 3 who had that kind of cash lying about with no level 50 alt's to fall back on.

 

The leveling process is so easy, and self sufficient. You can level all proffs to 400 easily just by missions and gathering as you level up. I don't see why all level 1 guilds should have a bank that easily accessible. It just fosters the huge increase in guilds so that one man army's can have a bank alt with 20 tabs.

 

The whole point of a guild is community not perks. We managed just fine with what we had. You can always mail stuff to other chars.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Narny

[savagepotato]

To be honest, we never needed one until we had a number of 50's. We now find ourselves gearing up to get ready to raid. Mats can be shared, we can drop items in for members to pick up when they log in etc etc. The 600k or even a mill for the 2nd tab isn't all that much. Few of our guildies had 4m credits at level 20 just through selling stuff, slicing missions etc etc. I myself didn't, but I know at least 3 who had that kind of cash lying about with no level 50 alt's to fall back on.

 

The leveling process is so easy, and self sufficient. You can level all proffs to 400 easily just by missions and gathering as you level up. I don't see why all level 1 guilds should have a bank that easily accessible. It just fosters the huge increase in guilds so that one man army's can have a bank alt with 20 tabs.

 

That is exactly the point.

 

The leveling process is an easy solo affair that neither requires nor fosters collaboration. And the endgame requires little more.

 

This is why it does not feel like an mmo.

Edited March 22, 2012 by savagepotato

[Nyla]

The fact remains, if you don't have the tools it doesn't happen.

 

It's not happening now, It didn't happen in other games that failed to foster a reason for players to play together.

 

If you make a game that offers an obvious path, players will by and large take that path and miss everything else. By your approximation Call of Duty is an MMO because players can form a community without traditional mmo tools.

 

It doesn't work like that any longer. People need a reason to play together. If you made a multiplayer version of skyrim tomorrow would it be an MMO? No.

 

And to your PS. Really you can do better than posting GZ marketing spin. The guy is essentially a used car salesman as far as his community interaction goes.

 

I don't know, I played MMOs without guild banks, without perks or bonus for being in a guild, with disjointed zones, and we still managed to create guilds, have fun, make our own events...

 

Maybe players need all thoses tools theses days but still in all the MMOs that added thoses things, I can remember many players that were against it.

 

Yes, TOR don't have many of thoses tools but maybe the game wasn't made for thoses who need it or can play without it ?

[Godzillamax]

I hope that there are enough Bioware fans, RPG fans, casual fans, to keep this MMO going. I'm disappointed that the raiders make up such a majority that now US servers are underpopulated.

 

This is humbling news isn't it, that the raiders are actually the majority, and not the casual players who keep claiming that they are the majority.

 

It isn't raiders vs non-raiders or casuals vs hardcore players. Your simply misunderstanding what the root problem is with ToR. The root problem with ToR is an abject lack of viable end-game content. That lack of end-game content affects all players regardless of how you classify them (raider, casual, etc.).

 

Once you reach level 50 what is there to do? Not much since the game shipped with just two very easy to complete Operations. Level 50 pretty much means your choices are to run the same flahspoints you ran on the road to 50 all over again, and over again, and over again, just to get slightly better gear (Tionese or Columi). Or you can level an alt. Leveling an alt means doing 90% of the same content all over again, and over again, and over again, until guess what? Your alt is level 50 and your faced with the same problem as before.

 

Sure you can do PvP if that is your thing. But running the same three warzones over and over and over ad naseum just for what? So you can accumulate valor points/ranks and buy PvP gear? That gets old fast and is just another grind/time sink (like running the flashpoints over and over to gear up).

 

Maybe the real problem isn't ToR, but gamers getting tired of the grind-fest lack of end-game content MMO model that has been used and abused by game developers since the 1990s. ToR failed miserably at breaking this mold. It's just another clone with the Star Wars moniker.

[savagepotato]

I don't know, I played MMOs without guild banks, without perks or bonus for being in a guild, with disjointed zones, and we still managed to create guilds, have fun, make our own events...

 

Maybe players need all thoses tools theses days but still in all the MMOs that added thoses things, I can remember many players that were against it.

 

Yes, TOR don't have many of thoses tools but maybe the game wasn't made for thoses who need it or can play without it ?

 

And yet the results remain. Weakening population, endless complaints about dead servers and there being nothing to do.

 

I formed a guild fresh into early access, excited about the game and hopeful for good things to come. Throughout the entire time I have played and the entire time trying to grow my guild It struck me that this was the most solo play focused and quiet population I have ever seen in an MMO.

 

A small core group of active players did form despite this, maybe 15 people or so. For the most part though the whole experience was just a very quiet affair with those who were leveling really not interacting with eachother much at all beyond casual conversation in guild. Slowly the numbers dwindled as names went dark, and the recruiting to replace them was in the negatives as the replacements went dark just as fast.

 

Finally transitioning into the end game with the core group started to dwindle as people logged in once a week for the raid if that and began not even bothering for that. Many went back to wow, many just stopped playing and eventually the guild shut down. Similar results for many other guilds on the server. The only ones hanging in are Multi game guilds that opened a TOR chapter. And their numbers aren't great either because again, people just aren't logging in much.

 

Short of the pure social aspect of joining a guild there is nothing to hold peoples interest in this game. And the fact is people are less social than ever in the online setting. They really need a little help to keep them motivated. Games like WoW trained an entire generation that way with easy roll dungeon finder groups.

 

Perhaps there isn't a solution and the population as a whole is just too poisoned for MMO style gaming any longer. But it sure is a far cry from the days of there being 200 person guilds all over the place, or massive player collaboration like EQ.

[Godzillamax]

Missing what point, you purchased a game, you don't like it because it's not what you expected, so instead of putting it on the shelf until it becomes more to your taste you decided to come here and state the obvious.

 

Now that you were challenged, your only retort is that I missed the point. No other explanation provided.

 

I got your point, your not happy, it's not what you expected. So now what? Your going to continue to pay for it and complain that you don't like it? Now who's making themselves look foolish? With anything else in life, if you buy something that is not to your taste, you don't buy it again. But for some odd reason people feel that when they buy a video game they don't like or isn't to their taste that continuous payment and then complaining about the fact they are paying for it will make it all OK again.

 

I do realise you didn't complain about paying for it. But if it's not what you wanted, and you want in fact something else? Then what are you doing?

 

I think the point is that many players posting on the forums voicing their displeasure with the current state of ToR aren't doing so just to complain, but hope their voice may be heard so a game that they are passionate about and truly want to see succeed and have a long life (like WoW) will do so.

 

Something I noticed last night that struck me as I was logging out in a cantina was how devoid the cantina was of activity. I have some fond memories from SWG of players crowding into cantinas to play their instruments or dance, even forming bands and jamming out some tunes. There really isn't any sense of that in ToR. Instead, I feel like I'm playing a co-op version of KOTOR with just a few friends.

[Godzillamax]

I had a feeling this thread would eventually progress this way when I started it, but I'd like to try to bring it back to the original question.

 

When the new patch goes live, do you think you will spend more time than you have been in the 20 - 49 range? Will those planets show increased population? Will you spend more time levelling alts?

 

Only thing me and my guildmates are even remotely interested in with 1.2 is the new flashpoint and new Op. Everything else is just fluff for the most part.

[Narny]

@Godzillamax

 

A lot of that is due to the community and not the game. So much is given to us in online MMO's today that we forget where all this started. And how it became so popular. On paper, with a bunch of friends, who liked to have fun, and use their imaginations.

 

Today, its just digital pixels, a bunch of tools that we NEED to have or it's totally unplayable. And a sense of entitlement to have a big bunch of shiny purple items that make them better than the next player. We need to learn that we are pushing away others in our community, mocking them to the point they wont want to group up any more.

 

We've become a very lonely, angry, and nasty bunch of people to be around. We've broken our own community.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Narny

[kevlarto]

1.2 should bring back some players because they will want to see what the fuss of the new patch is all about.

 

Yep like all mmos, the populations rise and fall with content..

[Godzillamax]

Because of their gameplay experience.

 

It feels the least like an MMO of any MMO I have ever played. And the dead servers don't help that at all.

 

One problem with the games design for MMO feel is this. The storyline. Most people through my experience in leveling, and observing my guild want "their" story to themselves. They want to be able to watch the cutscenes on their own time, at their own pace, without interruptions. Consequently the vast majority solo the entire single player game and have to have their leg twisted to even group up for the world heroics.

 

MMOs are basically single players games until people reach max level, which is where the grouping really starts (usually for end-game raids). Reason is simple. People play at different times and level at different speeds. Sure you may group with someone occasionally on the road to max level for an instance, but once you have out-leveled that instance it's back to single player leveling. I see it all the time. Get a group for quest A, but then everyone splits up because player 1 wants/needs to move onto quest B whereas player 2 already did quest B and wants/needs to progress to quest C.

 

Eventually the time it takes to find people to group with just isn't worth it versus leveling solo. So most MMOs are primarily single player games until you reach max level where the difficulty and content requires grouping. Sadly, most MMOs (ToR included) ship with far to little and poorly developed end-game content, which causes players to get bored and move on to other games.

[Antipathize]

I think the point is that many players posting on the forums voicing their displeasure with the current state of ToR aren't doing so just to complain, but hope their voice may be heard so a game that they are passionate about and truly want to see succeed and have a long life (like WoW) will do so.

 

Something I noticed last night that struck me as I was logging out in a cantina was how devoid the cantina was of activity. I have some fond memories from SWG of players crowding into cantinas to play their instruments or dance, even forming bands and jamming out some tunes. There really isn't any sense of that in ToR. Instead, I feel like I'm playing a co-op version of KOTOR with just a few friends.

 

I honestly feel that this game was intended as a single player game and began development that way. The game doesn't lend itself well to community either because of this. The whole team is focused on the single-person fun factor, and TOR is suffering for it. I am a casual, and I have NO motivation to interact with anyone.

 

I think the underlying problem is that people are easy to discard. Vendors provide everything a player needs. There aren't enough useful consumables to keep the economy running, so they contrive money sinks or cut income. It takes very little time to gear up a player, so once that is done, there is no reason to even interact with anyone unless it's pvp.

 

I don't even feel like I accomplished anything in my story, since everyone and their mother is darth, or grand champion.

 

All of this is my opinion, and honestly a good crafting economy keeps me in a game once I've finished the content I want to.

[Godzillamax]

@Godzillamax

 

A lot of that is due to the community and not the game. So much is given to us in online MMO's today that we forget where all this started. And how it became so popular. On paper, with a bunch of friends, who liked to have fun, and use their imaginations.

 

Today, its just digital pixels, a bunch of tools that we NEED to have or it's totally unplayable. And a sense of entitlement to have a big bunch of shiny purple items that make them better than the next player. We need to learn that we are pushing away others in our community, mocking them to the point they wont want to group up any more.

 

We've become a very lonely, angry, and nasty bunch of people to be around. We've broken our own community.

 

I agree and disagree. With the old school Dungeons & Dragons pen & paper games (which I loved playing in my youth) your imagination was really the only limiting factor. Your GM could invent whatever dungeon, castle, place, people, monsters, etc. he/she wanted. With computer games we are limited for the most part by what content is given to us. Even with my prior example of players forming bands in SWG the game developers gave them the tools to do so (the instruments, music, etc.). MMOs have become far to formulaic and linear over the years. Personally, I yearn for a return to the days of Ultima Online or SWG where less emphasis was placed on instances and gear and more was placed on a variety of stuff to do in the world. Some of my fondest MMO memories are from UO when the GMs would run in-game events. Everything now in modern MMOs is scripted, pre-planned, linear stuff.

[Tyraelium]

1.2 should bring back some players because they will want to see what the fuss of the new patch is all about.

 

If 1.2 brings anybody back, it'll be for 1-4 weeks AT THE MOST. They may resub, but they'll log in and realize that NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Nothing new or exciting in 1.2, just a bunch of underwhelming things that probably should've been included in launch. Servers will be dead when people clear content immediately because theres no challenge. Rateds are a joke, PvPers have already quit. 1.2 wont bring them back.

[Gunarson]

Hi all,

 

I browsed the forums looking for a topic about server merges and I stumbled upon this one.

 

I'm a bit concerned lately as the population on rogue moon server decreased drastically last month. I play with my girlfriend and best friend, but the news of the upcoming update couldn't persuade my best friend to play on, mainly because GW2 and Diablo3 is on the way and he noticed the decrease in people playing ToR.

 

My girlfriend isn't aware of the exodus that much, she's really casual and still playing through the game, she's level 39 now and thinks we'll play a lot of endgame content together later on. I'm a bit shocked to read in this topic there isn't that much endgame content apparently.

 

I hope they start merging servers soon, because low populated servers isn't a fun gaming experience in an mmo.

[Nicain]

1.2 should bring back some players because they will want to see what the fuss of the new patch is all about.

 

Its going to be a zero sum issue. For everyone it brings back it will lose someone because of how it trivialized some aspect of the game. Those that get brought back are fare-weather-players anyway and will end up being gone with GW2 and D3, so it will probably be a net-loss overall because BW is making modifications to please the transitory aspect of its playerbase.

[Vengeful_Deity]

Honestly, if they didn't display the number of players on a planet would people even notice? I've never read anyone whining about Stranglethorn or Twilight Highlands being empty.

 

I've been saying that for a while. I re-rolled (Not because my previous server was dead but because I wanted to play with IRL friends) and was amazed to see 70 some odd people on Coruscant. The most I remember ever seeing in Westfall was like 15.

[Macabakur]

Not going to quote him but, there's no differentiation between normal ops and hardmode flashpoint loot. There's no uniqueness, bosses may have this piece here then a separate boss may have the same piece there.

 

It's just really uninspired. Why each boss doesn't have unique blues that you can only get from that boss I just don't understand. As well, I'm fine with the content. The fp's are fun and the ops are too. It's also way too quick, there's no loot progression at all. All that tionese stuff? Ya I used that vendor one time not for armor. I got 5/5 columi by doing 2 hard mode fp's a day and finishing EV once. There needs to really be more progression. It should take multiple runs to get tier 1 and none of the stuff should be get table by doing hardmodes. Take columi off hardmodes.

[DSPD]

Right now I'm boycotting BW due to ME3, but it's a beautiful sight for sore eyes to see such great changes being made.

 

Haha, I'm boycotting ME3 due to TOR.

[Antipathize]

I've been saying that for a while. I re-rolled (Not because my previous server was dead but because I wanted to play with IRL friends) and was amazed to see 70 some odd people on Coruscant. The most I remember ever seeing in Westfall was like 15.

 

 

For the people that are using this game as a single-player RPG, of course the numbers don't matter. Those of us that spend hours trying to form groups and warzones give slightly more of a damn.

[Tiars]

As the previous poster said, I think it will draw some people back to see all of the changes. Now if they stay, that will depend on how good the changes are to the game.

 

I agree. I see nothing that would attract players to SW:TOR coming in 1.2 beyond the attraction that there was when the game launched.

 

At the best I see it impacting subscription bleed, which would be good.

[Andryah]

As the previous poster said, I think it will draw some people back to see all of the changes. Now if they stay, that will depend on how good the changes are to the game.

 

Used to be, MMO players waited patiently for patches and took time to consume them while waiting for the next patch.

 

Now days more and more players gorgingly consume, complain, unsub, wait for patch, resub, consume, complain, then unsub.... rinse and repeat. It's an artifact of console games becoming a mainstream form of entertainment IMO.

 

Your core population does not unsub/resub for patches. The people that do, don't count as a part of the persistent population so I would never count them as part of the player base. They are transients.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Andryah

[Godzillamax]

Not going to quote him but, there's no differentiation between normal ops and hardmode flashpoint loot. There's no uniqueness, bosses may have this piece here then a separate boss may have the same piece there.

 

It's just really uninspired. .

 

Want to know what ToR's real problem is? When you hit level 50 the only new content for you to experience are two Operations that can be completed with fresh level 50 gear in about 1-1.5 hours each. Other than that, you will have experienced everything else the game has to offer on the road to level 50.

[lollermittens]

I think 1.2 is only going to bring back the players who are in limbo as to whether or not they want to keep playing this game.

 

Those who have already quit and erased the game are most likely not going to spend an entire day re-downloading 45GB worth of data just to confirm their beliefs that 1.2 was a disappointment.

 

Plus with GW2 and Diablo 3 on the horizon, there's just no point to keep playing this sub-par game.

[Matte_Black]

Seems like it includes a lot of fixes that some folks quit over. I'd assume of those folks will come back. Probably some of the remaining players will play a bit more than they have been due to resolution of the same issues some of those others left over. This should combine to increase the number of players out there playing at any given time which is in an of itself an answer to many who left or have been playing less and might be lured back by the somewhat more full servers. I don't know that it will boraden the playerbase much but, it might make it a bit more robust and more able to retain those new players who continue to trickle in.

[Godzillamax]

Used to be, MMO players waited patiently for patches and took time to consume them while waiting for the next patch.

 

Now days more and more players gorgingly consume, complain, unsub, wait for patch, resub, consume, complain, then unsub.... rinse and repeat. It's an artifact of console games becoming a mainstream form of entertainment IMO.

 

Your core population does not unsub/resub for patches. The people that do, don't count as a part of the persistent population so I would never count them as part of the player base. They are transients.

 

This may be true to some degree, but a large part of this can probably be attributed to the fact that MMOs today are not as difficult as they used to be, and as such it takes less time to experience what content the game has to offer. I was in a big raiding guild back in vanilla WoW when the only raid instances were Molten Core and Onyxia. By the time Blackwing Lair came out, we were still running MC and Ony on a weekly basis. By the time the next raid came out (don't recall its name, the one with the bugs), our guild still had reason to run BWL.

 

While there were some very hardcore guilds that had busted through the content and were idle waiting for patches and new content, most were not that far ahead and as such new patches meant more content to yet be experienced.