theangryllama Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 A lot of people enjoy the gear progression or getting rewarded for effort. To me that's all MMO is about, just like at PvE (I do both). Progression takes time, so I spend more time in MMOs hence Im willing to pay monthly fee. Which is fine but you have to realise that your effort will always eventually be invalidated the base raised to what you just worked your *** of for and a new 'carrot' placed in front of you no matter how hard you had to work for it. It is the nature of today's MMO's courtesy of the juggernaught that is WoW. Without this system we would still be playing games with <100k subscribers and thought of as basement dwellers rather than being a huge mainstream thing. Note I am with you in regards to what you enjoy however I am logical enough to see why they do what they do and am just playing a little devils advocate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarray Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 So winning and skill aren't fun but grinding is? Wow, I'm sorry... Seriously, it's sad that people are so indoctrinated by this mentality anymore. stop deluding yourself. Winning and playing to improve is fun, but at some point you reach a cap. grinding for progression is the carrot on a stick that separates MMOS from standard FPS (in PvP) Stop trolling please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groncho Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The point of the matter is, do we all really want to grind on forever? The OP made an interesting point, not that I mind either way really. I guess it's just the way mmo's work, everyone should know that by now., You put in your time to have the best gear for a period of time. That's all. It's a neverending cylce that we, as players, just have to get used to. When we decide to put in the time to get the best stuff, we should know that it isnt going to be the best forever and go into it with that mindset. I do disagree that it took zero effort to get BM. Being a republic melee class, it wasnt that easy. We were useless in Ilum, and after all, we weren't the ones doing the valour farming. It isn't that big of a deal to be BM now, but to be BM 6 weeks ago did mean something to some people. i dont think any decent pvper wants to grind forever, u want the best stuff available and then u just want to pvp this grindfest must stop somehow but why would they give something to BM's ...???? and thats the point...there is nothing to give to a BM's...and i have 2, i just want to pvp ...not to be grinding forever and tbqh i dont want anything else but more warzones and open pvp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 You are still assuming that every single person with BM used a cheap way to get it. Stop being narrow minded. He doesnt get it, stop arguing with him. I am pretty sure he is definitely one of those that exploited these things to get his BM. Only someone who's done it would be so adamant that everyone else did it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 stop deluding yourself. Winning and playing to improve is fun, but at some point you reach a cap. grinding for progression is the carrot on a stick that separates MMOS from standard FPS (in PvP) Stop trolling please Oh, I'm sorry. Apparently PvPing for fun and skill and competition isn't what PvP is supposed to be like. Apparently it's just PvE without a script. Seriously, you're deluded. It doesn't have to be this way, it wasn't always this way, and there's a very good chance it can change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarray Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Which is fine but you have to realise that your effort will always eventually be invalidated the base raised to what you just worked your *** of for and a new 'carrot' placed in front of you no matter how hard you had to work for it. It is the nature of today's MMO's courtesy of the juggernaught that is WoW. Without this system we would still be playing games with <100k subscribers and thought of as basement dwellers rather than being a huge mainstream thing. Note I am with you in regards to what you enjoy however I am logical enough to see why they do what they do and am just playing a little devils advocate I agree with you. My problem isnt that my stats get nullified so to speak, but that everyone will be on equal terms regardless of the time they will put into PvP in the future. I know this sounds like I support BM's roflstomping fresh 50's, but thats not the case. I thought the difference between Champion gear and BM gear was so small that skill was sstill the determining factor + the grind for BM gear keep people playing PvP often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 He doesnt get it, stop arguing with him. I am pretty sure he is definitely one of those that exploited these things to get his BM. Only someone who's done it would be so adamant that everyone else did it too. You're an idiot. Please show me where I said everyone did it. Oh, wait, I didn't, you just enjoy twisting words. The point that you obviously are unable to understand without being explicitly told is the fact that those options exist negates ANY claim the BM gear requires effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 So winning and skill aren't fun but grinding is? Wow, I'm sorry... Seriously, it's sad that people are so indoctrinated by this mentality anymore. Only someone who has no interest in pvp whatsoever would look at it as grinding. Had you been a serious PvPer and enjoy the WZ, it would never feel like a grind. At most it would feel exhausting because you really want to get to levelX valor, but playing the games should be considered a grind. Why in the hell are you PvPing if doing it is a grind? Go spend your time doing dailies....NOW THAT is a grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarray Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Oh, I'm sorry. Apparently PvPing for fun and skill and competition isn't what PvP is supposed to be like. Apparently it's just PvE without a script. Seriously, you're deluded. It doesn't have to be this way, it wasn't always this way, and there's a very good chance it can change. Okay, goodbye troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Okay, goodbye troll. Keep the illogical, ad hominem responses coming, please. All it does is make it look like you have nothing to respond with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Only someone who has no interest in pvp whatsoever would look at it as grinding. Had you been a serious PvPer and enjoy the WZ, it would never feel like a grind. At most it would feel exhausting because you really want to get to levelX valor, but playing the games should be considered a grind. Why in the hell are you PvPing if doing it is a grind? Go spend your time doing dailies....NOW THAT is a grind. Doing it is a grind because it's a requirement to get PvP gear which in turn is a requirement to PvP effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarray Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Keep the illogical, ad hominem responses coming, please. All it does is make it look like you have nothing to respond with. It's just a matter of trying to reason with a religious guy. It ain't gonna happen. But you just keep feeling smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) It's just a matter of trying to reason with a religious guy. It ain't gonna happen. But you just keep feeling smart. Well, see, thing is you said nothing that proved me wrong. I said it wasn't always that way, which is a fact (UO, DAoC etc), and that it doesn't have to be that way which is based off precedents established by the first fact. Saying it might not always be that way is also fact as there are several AAA MMOs coming out that eliminate grinding. You offered nothing other than "it's that way because I say so" Edited March 22, 2012 by dschlan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 You're an idiot. Please show me where I said everyone did it. Oh, wait, I didn't, you just enjoy twisting words. The point that you obviously are unable to understand without being explicitly told is the fact that those options exist negates ANY claim the BM gear requires effort. Oh resorting to insults now to make an irrelevant point. Ok I will go to the extreme side with you. "I" am the ONLY one who didnt exploit these things. So was it not an effort on my part? So you bet your *** I have a claim that the BM gear I got required effort. But the reality is that you have NO clue how many individuals used the exploits. But it is definitely no where near a certain amount to justify your argument. Furthermore, I really doubt that those who used these exploits would be coming to the forums and genuinely express annoyance at the change. In fact, I can definitely see them coming to the forums and saying the same BS you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Oh resorting to insults now to make an irrelevant point. Ok I will go to the extreme side with you. "I" am the ONLY one who didnt exploit these things. So was it not an effort on my part? So you bet your *** I have a claim that the BM gear I got required effort. But the reality is that you have NO clue how many individuals used the exploits. But it is definitely no where near a certain amount to justify your argument. Furthermore, I really doubt that those who used these exploits would be coming to the forums and genuinely express annoyance at the change. In fact, I can definitely see them coming to the forums and saying the same BS you are. BM gear doesn't require effort. You can put effort (read: time) into it, but obviously you don't understand. If an option exists that lets you avoid effort (read: time spent), then no effort is required. Why? Because if it's required that means it's the ONLY way to do it, which is not the case here. As such, you can not claim that BM gear REQUIRED effort in any way. Edited March 22, 2012 by dschlan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Doing it is a grind because it's a requirement to get PvP gear which in turn is a requirement to PvP effectively. Did you know the stat differences between BM and Champ to say something like this? There is absolutely NO requirement to be in BM to PvP effectively. Do you know that some people even prefer champ stats over BM? Do you know that there are some serious PvPers wearing mostly PvE gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Did you know the stat differences between BM and Champ to say something like this? There is absolutely NO requirement to be in BM to PvP effectively. Do you know that some people even prefer champ stats over BM? Do you know that there are some serious PvPers wearing mostly PvE gear? Champ is still PvP gear that you have to grind for. Champ bags = grind. It's not like they magically give you a full set of Champ when you hit 50. You have to open a lot of bags. How do you get those bags? Grinding. Edited March 22, 2012 by dschlan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparcrypt Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Let's clear this up: free time to grind something/grinding in general =/= effort. Not really true. I have limited free time and I have to decide how to spend it. If I spend it all working towards something then someone who spent no time at all working towards said goal gets there as well, it's a little annoying. Anyway, it's not the point. Patches happen, things change, gear moves on. But a change such as this it's nice to go 'well you did it the long way, have a shiny thing to say you're special'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Not really true. I have limited free time and I have to decide how to spend it. If I spend it all working towards something then someone who spent no time at all working towards said goal gets there as well, it's a little annoying. Anyway, it's not the point. Patches happen, things change, gear moves on. But a change such as this it's nice to go 'well you did it the long way, have a shiny thing to say you're special'. Thing is though, that's still not necessarily effort, just using your free time efficiently in your own manner of choosing. By all means give BMs something so people stop crying but people need to stop acting like BM required any amount of skill or effort. Edited March 22, 2012 by dschlan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 BM gear doesn't require effort. You can put effort (read: time) into it, but obviously you don't understand. If an option exists that lets you avoid effort (read: time spent), then no effort is required. Why? Because if it's required that means it's the ONLY way to do it, which is not the case here. As such, you can not claim that BM gear REQUIRED effort in any way. You are still making the ridiculous assumption that just because exploits did exist, that people went online, googled "how to exploit valor" and unanimously proceeded to follow the step by step instructions of how to. I know I didnt, and I am pretty sure the vast majority didnt either. Maybe if I was dealing with dishonest people all the time I would feel the same way as you do. But I've played MMOs for many years, starting with DIKU muds, and I never once was delusional in game that is free of exploits. But I feel that those who use the exploits are not ones that read about them, but actively and constantly look for them in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarray Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Thing is though, that's still not necessarily effort, just using your free time efficiently in your own manner of choosing. By all means give BMs something so people stop crying but people need to stop acting like BM required any amount of skill or effort. Spending time in PvP and get pvp gear = effort. Not spending time in PvP and get PvP = not effort. Even if people did afk in Wz, it'd still be more effort than not joining at all. People who got BM the legitimate way feel like their time was waste. Now let's just say that PvP was awesome in any other area than this - how many times do you think that BW will be able to pull stunts like these and still have a player base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 You are still making the ridiculous assumption that just because exploits did exist, that people went online, googled "how to exploit valor" and unanimously proceeded to follow the step by step instructions of how to. I know I didnt, and I am pretty sure the vast majority didnt either. Maybe if I was dealing with dishonest people all the time I would feel the same way as you do. But I've played MMOs for many years, starting with DIKU muds, and I never once was delusional in game that is free of exploits. But I feel that those who use the exploits are not ones that read about them, but actively and constantly look for them in the game. FFS. I am NOT assuming anything. I'm saying that because those options were there you weren't FORCED to put any effort into it (still no effort involved doing it other ways). There was no effort REQUIRED. Seriously, learn your vocab words in school tomorrow. Required means it's the only way to do something. This is not the case. But whatever, I'm sure you'll read it wrong the third time around as well Have a nice, ignorant and deluded life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Champ is still PvP gear that you have to grind for. Champ bags = grind. It's not like they magically give you a full set of Champ when you hit 50. You have to open a lot of bags. How do you get those bags? Grinding. Ok I am sorry, I can not continue this if now we are talking about champ gear also being a grind. I mean we are definitely on complete opposites if you feel that way. It seems that you are looking more for a "BattleField" concept of pvp, and I more towards a "progression" mmo experience (pve and pvp). This whole argument in this thread may actually be that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dschlan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Spending time in PvP and get pvp gear = effort. Not spending time in PvP and get PvP = not effort. Even if people did afk in Wz, it'd still be more effort than not joining at all. People who got BM the legitimate way feel like their time was waste. Now let's just say that PvP was awesome in any other area than this - how many times do you think that BW will be able to pull stunts like these and still have a player base? I don't feel like it was a waste. The people I play with don't feel like it's a waste. See the hole in your logic yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparcrypt Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Thing is though, that's still not necessarily effort, just using your free time efficiently in your own manner of choosing. By all means give BMs something so people stop crying but people need to stop acting like BM required any amount of skill or effort. Depends how you define effort. Little in MMOs requires a lot of real 'skill' but a big grind still requires some effort. I remember when a WoW guildy got that 'insane' achievement for all the really really long rep grinds. Someone commented it wasn't really hard cause all he had to do was kill low level mobs for hours and hours.. he just replied with 'you do it then'. End of discussion. But that's off track. I really just wanted to point out a way that would hopefully please everyone. BMs go 'yay I'm special!' everyone goes 'OK you don't get any special gear to beat me with, fair enough'. Everyone wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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