Sage/Sorc DPS nerf - why?

[ClaneGhani]

[quote=Samaul;3524851

 

• I NEVER crit higher than 3k in pvp with any ability.
   
  
• Project hits for about 500-1500.
   
  
• TK Throw ticks for about 6-800.
   
  
• On targets with increased mitigation and damage shields, my abilities often hit or tick for 2-500 damage.
   
  
• Force Quake ticks for about 1-300 in pvp.
  

 

 

yeah and this is why we see tons of sorcerer's and sage around 500k dmg done in huttball and voidstar

 

I can do 400k in some game it with centurion gear's depending on how many marauder/operative in the oposite team they got...

Seen a lots of players do 500k dmg done, never any other class than a sorc...

[pathiss]

You know with increased DR on expertise, all healers will get an increased 10-15% on all healing done right?

 

10 to 15% of 0 is still 0.

 

In competitive play, it is laughably easy to shut down a sorc/sage healer.

[BiggDirty]

yeah and this is why we see tons of sorcerer's and sage around 500k dmg done in huttball and voidstar

 

I can do 400k in some game it with centurion gear's depending on how many marauder/operative in the oposite team they got...

Seen a lots of players do 500k dmg done, never any other class than a sorc...

 

I feel sad for the human race to read stuff like this.

 

Please think about what you're saying.... PLEASE.

[SeanPoe]

Sniper's don't wear heavy armor.

 

Their defensive cooldowns are a joke. 3s of immunity to melee/ranged attacks and a 2k (at best) damage shield.

 

Cover is only good for preventing leaps, once the class is in melee range, you're screwed anyways.

 

Sure they get a single target knock-back, but they only get 1 stun, and its melee range only.

 

They get nothing like force speed. And despite the fact that they wear medium amor, they are just as squishy as you because you can pick up %damage reduction.'

 

 

Sure mercs wear heavy armor, but they don't get a 'stank stance,' they have 1 defensive cooldown which absorbs about as much damage as your bubble, but on a much longer recast.

Again, they have a single target KB, but they are also the least mobile class in the game.

 

Snipers have cover making them immune to charge and grapple. You have a 30m range 5 second root on a 15 second cooldown, you have a powerful knockback (better than sages in terms of knockback strength) that also has a 5 second root, you have entrench that makes you immune to all cc (for 20 seconds), you have raid-wide 20% damage reduction cooldown, you have a 30m range instant cast aoe-mez, you have a 3 second immunity to all weapon based damage (nullifies almost all sniper abilities, powertech burst and half of the marauder abilities), and defense screen (off the gcd, absorbs about 2.5k damage), a 4 sec melee ranged stun on a 45s cooldown (15s less than sage) as well as full pushback and interupt immunity (so you can at least do damage while being tunneled). These are just the baseline control and survivability cooldowns snipers get. They also have quite a few more talent abilities, namely a ranged aoe snare and various movement speed perks.

 

The charge and grapple immunity alone makes snipers about twice as survivable than sages against melee cleaves if the sniper has good positioning. All this combined with some of the sickest burst and sustained damage in the game, sages have terrible burst and terrible sustained when forced to kite.

 

I'm not going to pretend like snipers are amazing, because they aren't. But i feel they are currently slightly better than sages right now and will be leagues ahead after the sniper buffs and sage nerfs. Half of the "utility" sages currently have will be gone when the hybrid spec dies, so keep that in mind. Snipers currently have everything sages get through talents as baseline abilities.

 

P.S. I think mercs are garbage and deserve huge buffs and not nerfs. They're currently the worst class in the game.

Edited March 20, 2012 by SeanPoe

[SeanPoe]

yeah and this is why we see tons of sorcerer's and sage around 500k dmg done in huttball and voidstar

 

I can do 400k in some game it with centurion gear's depending on how many marauder/operative in the oposite team they got...

Seen a lots of players do 500k dmg done, never any other class than a sorc...

 

This kind of logic is so terrible. How many scoundrel healers have you seen do 600-800k healing? Zero? So by that logic scoundrels are awful and incapable of doing 800k healing, right? Wrong. I do an average of 600k healing in every decent warzone I've ever joined as a scoundrel healer, I've done 700k+ on at least a dozen occasions, I've broken 850k once before. This is on a class/spec that the majority of the pvp community thinks is terrible and weak and completely worthless in pvp.

 

The take-away here is, good players are good, bad players are bad. Every single class is capable of doing 500k+ output in warzones if they know how to play their class. I will admit that padding the meters as a sage/sorc is extremely easy (especially if you don't get focused). But that damage is just meter padding if the other team has healers. Dropping ~10k chain lightnings every ~7 seconds is not how you win the objectives and is easily healed through. The majority of that damage doesn't even contribute to a kill. You don't win objectives by doing a ton of random aoe damage anyways, you win objectives by bursting down the other team as quickly as possible and then capping a node or scoring the ball.

Edited March 20, 2012 by SeanPoe

[Samaul]

yeah and this is why we see tons of sorcerer's and sage around 500k dmg done in huttball and voidstar

 

I can do 400k in some game it with centurion gear's depending on how many marauder/operative in the oposite team they got...

Seen a lots of players do 500k dmg done, never any other class than a sorc...

 

While Sage/Sorc AEs can dramatically increase damage stats, they have little effect on the outcome of the battle. Ultimately, all pvp battles are decided 1v1.

[fungihoujo]

But, Sir, we are supposed to be a ranged dps class with sustained output. If you want to play a more burst type ranged dps try gunslinger. Or, try one of the melee dps classes for that burst. The patch changes just promote either TK or Balance deep specs, these are different play styles, but neither are burst.

 

That's the problem- we're a mage class, we're squishy, die fast when focused and have no instant escape- our sprint can be grappled by two of the classes that ruin us fast (shadows/vanguards), or gap closed and rooted by jedi knights.

 

Are we now in line with operatives and snipers? Likely- but being in line with bottom rung classes is not a good thing.

 

In 1.2- sorcs have the easiest to interrupt heals due to cast time, limited CC due to hybrids being gone, damage that'll rely entirely on dots- which breaks half our CC. The worst burst damage in the game by a great deal. And the only thing people can say to defend the nerfs is that 'they can run away well'- which isn't even true with how CC heavy other classes are. And, if left unattended, they can rack up big numbers.

 

 

No, we don't want to hear that we can rack up a bunch of dot damage- you know why burst is vital in pvp? Because it relies on human error- in those 5 seconds it takes for two bursters to kill someone, were the healers able to switch, blow their cooldowns, and get off 3 GCD worth of heals on him each?

 

When you're being killed slowly by dots over 30 seconds, it's not nearly as hard for a healer to toss a couple heals your way.

 

 

Regardless- sorcs are a mage class that in dps spec has no burst- that's a problem, pure and simple. And no, when we're in a dps spec, 'you have healing and defensive CDs' doesn't work as a defense of having no damage- it's a damage spec, it's meant to do damage- mercs can do more damage with a single TM, on 1.5 sec cast and no CD- than we can already do with our CL needing a proc and on 6 sec CD, or our 15 sec CD death field. We're also now a mage spec with no good aoe- death field is 3 target and does less damage than smash.

 

You know who cares about hitting big numbers? The worst players in the game. Any good players realizes that when you have 30 seconds to kill 2 players so you can plant a bomb, you're going to need to kill them each in about ten seconds- you're going to need to prevent them from healing, from protecting each other, you're going to need to hit them hard and fast- and you're going to need to kill them by doing about 30k damage. Then, you're going to have a period of time slowing enemies, pushing off the bridge, interfering- good play, that will not get you much damage.

 

The sorc that spends two minutes trying to dot them down and simply getting healed over and over is going to put out 150k damage, yet never get a kill and never get a plant.

 

 

Currently, this forum is filled with a defense of the high damage being better- so I want you to repeat after me 'killing two people and planting a bomb by doing 30k damage in half a minute makes me a far worse player than someone who does 150k damage and has no effect on winning the game'. Because that's what these nerfs and the forum nerf QQ that lead to them revolves entirely around- numbers that mean nothing at all.

[Samaul]

That's the problem- we're a mage class, we're squishy, die fast when focused and have no instant escape- our sprint can be grappled by two of the classes that ruin us fast (shadows/vanguards), or gap closed and rooted by jedi knights.

 

Are we now in line with operatives and snipers? Likely- but being in line with bottom rung classes is not a good thing.

 

In 1.2- sorcs have the easiest to interrupt heals due to cast time, limited CC due to hybrids being gone, damage that'll rely entirely on dots- which breaks half our CC. The worst burst damage in the game by a great deal. And the only thing people can say to defend the nerfs is that 'they can run away well'- which isn't even true with how CC heavy other classes are. And, if left unattended, they can rack up big numbers.

 

 

No, we don't want to hear that we can rack up a bunch of dot damage- you know why burst is vital in pvp? Because it relies on human error- in those 5 seconds it takes for two bursters to kill someone, were the healers able to switch, blow their cooldowns, and get off 3 GCD worth of heals on him each?

 

When you're being killed slowly by dots over 30 seconds, it's not nearly as hard for a healer to toss a couple heals your way.

 

 

Regardless- sorcs are a mage class that in dps spec has no burst- that's a problem, pure and simple. And no, when we're in a dps spec, 'you have healing and defensive CDs' doesn't work as a defense of having no damage- it's a damage spec, it's meant to do damage- mercs can do more damage with a single TM, on 1.5 sec cast and no CD- than we can already do with our CL needing a proc and on 6 sec CD, or our 15 sec CD death field. We're also now a mage spec with no good aoe- death field is 3 target and does less damage than smash.

 

You know who cares about hitting big numbers? The worst players in the game. Any good players realizes that when you have 30 seconds to kill 2 players so you can plant a bomb, you're going to need to kill them each in about ten seconds- you're going to need to prevent them from healing, from protecting each other, you're going to need to hit them hard and fast- and you're going to need to kill them by doing about 30k damage. Then, you're going to have a period of time slowing enemies, pushing off the bridge, interfering- good play, that will not get you much damage.

 

The sorc that spends two minutes trying to dot them down and simply getting healed over and over is going to put out 150k damage, yet never get a kill and never get a plant.

 

 

Currently, this forum is filled with a defense of the high damage being better- so I want you to repeat after me 'killing two people and planting a bomb by doing 30k damage in half a minute makes me a far worse player than someone who does 150k damage and has no effect on winning the game'. Because that's what these nerfs and the forum nerf QQ that lead to them revolves entirely around- numbers that mean nothing at all.

 

/agreed

 

As I said above. No sage/sorc is EVER going to kill an equally champion+ geared player while critting them from 2-3k + dot damage when they are critting the sorc/sage for 4-10k. Burst is king in PvP.

[CuriousK]

I have been dpsing as a sage for about 2 months in warzones and end-game pvp. I have full champion Force Master, the best hybrid dps spec gear and against equivalently or better geared targets in pvp, my dps freaking sucks. I mean sage dps is really weak in pvp. Some highlights of Sage PvP dps:

 

• I NEVER crit higher than 3k in pvp with any ability.
   
  
• Project hits for about 500-1500.
   
  
• TK Throw ticks for about 6-800.
   
  
• On targets with increased mitigation and damage shields, my abilities often hit or tick for 2-500 damage.
   
  
• Force Quake ticks for about 1-300 in pvp.
  

 

On the other hand, I get crit by Juggernaut's for over half my health with 650 expertise. The sages biggest weakness is burst, we have none. We can put out decent sustained damage with procs in pve but our pvp dps is just weak and slow.

 

Every imp dps class can out out amazing burst which makes them devastating 1v1. I cant kill anyone in decent gear 1v1 because I have no burst damage. PvP dps is dependent on burst because the fights are short. Sages need a significant buff in burst damage. That burst should come from our "pure" or 31 point dps specs but it doesnt. Our pure specs are just weak, especially in pvp.

 

The only time I can do decent damage or kill anyone in pvp as a sage is when I am allowed to stand still and free cast. Sage dps is useless 1v1 in pvp. It is too slow and does not have sufficient burst to be competetive.

 

It is interesting to note that I have gone back to Seer spec because my dps is so abysmal in pvp. But guess what? The worst 1v1 pvp dps spec is going to get even worse in 1.2.

 

I just dont see this as doom and gloom.

 

Sorcs most affected by this change are hybrid DPS sorcs. (healing sages got hit much harder with thier changes).

 

The only thing i would agree with here is there should be one of the two dps trees that leans more toward burst damage. The lightning tree 31 pt talent (and its mirror) seems to lean more in this direction, but from much of the input from the sage/sorc community it gives up a lot of survivablity, and might not go quite as far as it needs to to contribute to burst damage.

 

The only thing this patch did was remove CL/Force wave as a single target burst option on procs. the damage you are losing from Force lightning/pebbles etc is made up by the damage dealt on Crushing darkness procs, now that it gets the benefit of the 20% damage buff.

 

Good sorcs/sages have no issues with burst imo. You are never going to have back to back to back railshot/stockstrike/railshot combos for 5k/3k/5k but then your not a pyro vanguard are you? What you can do is pressure with dots and channeled pebbles/lightning until you develop a healing deficit to exploit and then burst with instant crushing darkness/deathfield as a finisher.

 

I just dont understand these posts about "no burst damage". We have more tools to control the fight than just about any other class.

 

I dont see Sages/Sorcs hurting for success in warzones, the fact that one or two classes are hard counters is not a problem, its a part of the design.

 

And yes, I play a sorc. Anyone that couldnt see the hybrid madness dps spec nerf coming needs to check their head.

[BiggDirty]

Good sorcs/sages have no issues with burst imo. You are never going to have back to back to back railshot/stockstrike/railshot combos for 5k/3k/5k but then your not a pyro vanguard are you? What you can do is pressure with dots and channeled pebbles/lightning until you develop a healing deficit to exploit and then burst with instant crushing darkness/deathfield as a finisher.

 

And why exactly would I want to go to all that trouble, when I can just destroy someone in 3 seconds with a class that actually has burst damage?

 

You can make any class composition work, with enough dedication and effort.

 

Unfortunately I have a job and a life, so I'd rather just play a class that isn't gimped, and at least have a chance to play on a good rated wz team.

 

The top PvP guild on Fatman has already said they'll be using 1 sage at the most.

[fungihoujo]

I just dont see this as doom and gloom.

 

Sorcs most affected by this change are hybrid DPS sorcs. (healing sages got hit much harder with thier changes).

 

The only thing i would agree with here is there should be one of the two dps trees that leans more toward burst damage. The lightning tree 31 pt talent (and its mirror) seems to lean more in this direction, but from much of the input from the sage/sorc community it gives up a lot of survivablity, and might not go quite as far as it needs to to contribute to burst damage.

 

The only thing this patch did was remove CL/Force wave as a single target burst option on procs. the damage you are losing from Force lightning/pebbles etc is made up by the damage dealt on Crushing darkness procs, now that it gets the benefit of the 20% damage buff.

 

Good sorcs/sages have no issues with burst imo. You are never going to have back to back to back railshot/stockstrike/railshot combos for 5k/3k/5k but then your not a pyro vanguard are you? What you can do is pressure with dots and channeled pebbles/lightning until you develop a healing deficit to exploit and then burst with instant crushing darkness/deathfield as a finisher.

 

I just dont understand these posts about "no burst damage". We have more tools to control the fight than just about any other class.

 

I dont see Sages/Sorcs hurting for success in warzones, the fact that one or two classes are hard counters is not a problem, its a part of the design.

 

And yes, I play a sorc. Anyone that couldnt see the hybrid madness dps spec nerf coming needs to check their head.

 

Death field does about 2.5k crits on average in champ gear- can get up to 3.5k with CDs and some luck. Crushing you'll be lucky to ever top 2.5k- and that's best case scenario.

 

Our best case scenario will put us at about 6k burst plus another 2k from dots over 4 seconds- whereas a pyrotech can get over 15k in best scenario, a juggernaut can get around 12k in best scenario, an operative can get around 12k in best scenario, a sniper can get about 12k in best scenario, etc....

 

Point is, in absolute best scenario- we're doing just over half what any other class can do- and, in many cases, those other classes have better crit chances so they'll get those scenarios more often. Our burst at tops is around 2k damage per second, but then we have a 15 sec CD on death field, and another CD plus the proc timer on crushing- in the mean time we have nothing but dots and FL- which give around 1k DPS- meaning to kill someone in light armour and low expertise, it's about 10 seconds... but, if you factor in defensive CDs, expertise, interupts, mobility removing FL, armour- it can double the time even against a bad player, and against a good player you'll simply be dead because while your DPS is cut when you're trying to escape, melee classes can be hitting you hard all the while.

 

 

While moving- a madness sorc has the ability to throw dots that don't stack, shocks on CD- that's it. No other class is so gutted in every spec while moving, except perhaps the sniper though even it has a decent spec for mobility and damage (decent compared to other bottom rung classes like ops, sorcs and dps mercs).

 

 

 

Right now, BW is making a cluster of ACs that are terrible in the hands of bad players and godmode in the hands of good players- and another cluster of ACs that are decent in the hands of terrible players, but only good in the hands of good players- and comparitively awful compared to the godmode classes. It's created this illusion that the classes that are in fact the worst at a high skill rating and with the most competitive players- look like they're the best.

 

 

For the first time ever, I wish this game had arena because the facts would have come out clearly with the number of players in top ratings- and since BW has proven they don't need arena to make awful balancing choices, my entire argument for not having arena has been nullified anyway.

[CuriousK]

And why exactly would I want to go to all that trouble, when I can just destroy someone in 3 seconds with a class that actually has burst damage?

 

You can make any class composition work, with enough dedication and effort.

 

Unfortunately I have a job and a life, so I'd rather just play a class that isn't gimped, and at least have a chance to play on a good rated wz team.

 

The top PvP guild on Fatman has already said they'll be using 1 sage at the most.

 

Just be greatful you didnt pick a class that was advertised as a "burst damage" class only to find out it didnt have burst, or sustain, or utility.

 

I knew what I was getting into when i picked sorc. I picked a class that could heal, and dps with a ton of pvp utility. I was aware that there was a good chance I wouldnt have any burst capacity at all, and pleasantly surprised with the burst i could do with madness/lightning hybrid specs.

 

I sympathise with your "but a steak knife cuts steak better" argument for burst damage, but sage/sorc is just not that class. Your perfectly right, if you want a premiere bursty dps class that can drop the big bombs in 2 GCDS... your playing the wrong class. That doesnt mean sorcs arent effective dpsers, or that they do not have burst dps.

 

CK

[CuriousK]

Death field does about 2.5k crits on average in champ gear- can get up to 3.5k with CDs and some luck. Crushing you'll be lucky to ever top 2.5k- and that's best case scenario.

 

Our best case scenario will put us at about 6k burst plus another 2k from dots over 4 seconds- whereas a pyrotech can get over 15k in best scenario, a juggernaut can get around 12k in best scenario, an operative can get around 12k in best scenario, a sniper can get about 12k in best scenario, etc....

 

Point is, in absolute best scenario- we're doing just over half what any other class can do- and, in many cases, those other classes have better crit chances so they'll get those scenarios more often.

 

<SNIP>

 

 

This is exaggeration for effect.

 

I have a 50 champion geared op

 

I have a mid 30s geared slinger (sniper) (pls non of the your not 50 your opinion isnt valid ********, ive got plenty of 50s this just doesnt happen to be one of them)

 

Neither of them has appreciably more damage to drop someone that my sorc does. The damage is just different. The slinger its more bursty, but then thats sort of their thing. The ops its front loaded, but if you think Ops have it better off than sorcs dps-wise, your in for a big suprise... just be happy your not an Op is all i can say.

 

The pressure dps plus burst that you can put out with a sorc is not 50% of an Op or a Sniper. Those number are just wrong. Also your numbers for other classes are just that, absolute best case scenarios. Similar best case scenarios for sages/sorcs will put you at significantly more than "50 percent at best" damage of those classes.

 

Sorcs/Sages have no problems succeeding in pvp, even when evaluated on multiple metrics (not just scoreboard fluff) And they arent all just amazing players doing well in spite of their handicaps, some of them are facerolling their way to success, some are skillfully playing their class to its strengths with every variation in between.

 

When we get combat logs in 1.2 we can have a proper discussion. Until then its all just subjective posturing, and observations/opinions from gameplay.

Edited March 20, 2012 by CuriousK

[BiggDirty]

That doesnt mean sorcs arent effective dpsers, or that they do not have burst dps.

 

CK

 

 

That's precisely what it means, unfortunately.

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that every single class could press 1 button and hit you for 15k.

 

Sages can put out 2k dps. So, it's gonna take them 10 seconds to kill people on average. That's not so bad, right? But why in the world would you ever want one on your team when every other class can hit for 15k in 1 GCD?

 

In any class based game, all measurements are RELATIVE. The fact that a sage can do decent damage and can still kill you, is completely irrelevant when there are 5 other classes who can do the same thing but much faster.

 

The bad players would have you believe that sprint/bubble/knockback/ability to heal will compensate for this lack of damage, but anyone with a brain knows that is nonsense.

[GrandMike]

This is exaggeration for effect.

 

I have a 50 champion geared op

 

I have a mid 30s geared slinger (sniper) (pls non of the your not 50 your opinion isnt valid ********, ive got plenty of 50s this just doesnt happen to be one of them)

 

Neither of them has appreciably more damage to drop someone that my sorc does. The damage is just different. The slinger its more bursty, but then thats sort of their thing. The ops its front loaded, but if you think Ops have it better off than sorcs dps-wise, your in for a big suprise... just be happy your not an Op is all i can say.

 

The pressure dps plus burst that you can put out with a sorc is not 50% of an Op or a Sniper. Those number are just wrong. Also your numbers for other classes are just that, absolute best case scenarios. Similar best case scenarios for sages/sorcs will put you at significantly more than "50 percent at best" damage of those classes.

 

Sorcs/Sages have no problems succeeding in pvp, even when evaluated on multiple metrics (not just scoreboard fluff) And they arent all just amazing players doing well in spite of their handicaps, some of them are facerolling their way to success, some are skillfully playing their class to its strengths with every variation in between.

 

When we get combat logs in 1.2 we can have a proper discussion. Until then its all just subjective posturing, and observations/opinions from gameplay.

 

Id rather have something that can actually kill something over something that can "pressure" something. Kill>>>>pressure.

 

Enjoy bottom of ranks just because you play "wrong" class.

Edited March 20, 2012 by GrandMike

[elorei]

Tell the "sage dps sucks" line to the sorc on my server who literally spams 2 moves and easily breaks 400k damage every...single...game.

 

The pointless, non burst, get no kills, stat padding damage on the end screen? You can have all of that you want. It isn't helping your team, it isn't killing the other team.

[CuriousK]

Id rather have something that can actually kill something over something that can "pressure" something. Kill>>>>pressure.

 

Enjoy bottom of ranks just because you play "wrong" class.

 

ahh grand mike, another riveting post packed with good information for the forum readers....

[GrandMike]

ahh grand mike, another riveting post packed with good information for the forum readers....

 

Im glad you agree with me

[CuriousK]

That's precisely what it means, unfortunately.

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that every single class could press 1 button and hit you for 15k.

 

Sages can put out 2k dps. So, it's gonna take them 10 seconds to kill people on average. That's not so bad, right? But why in the world would you ever want one on your team when every other class can hit for 15k in 1 GCD?

 

In any class based game, all measurements are RELATIVE. The fact that a sage can do decent damage and can still kill you, is completely irrelevant when there are 5 other classes who can do the same thing but much faster.

 

The bad players would have you believe that sprint/bubble/knockback/ability to heal will compensate for this lack of damage, but anyone with a brain knows that is nonsense.

 

I disagree, success in pvp does not hinge entirely on your ability to burst dps, especially not objective based team PVP.

 

Im not sure what your hypothetical situation does to further the discussion. Your just insisting that other classes have this mystical 15k damage button and sorcs dont. (other classes have burst, sages sorcs dont) Theres no data to back it up in your comment, its just opinion/observation.

 

For me i will go with the hard evidence in hundreds of warzones that ive played in (completely ignoring the scoreboards, which are meaningless in terms of metrics for measuring how effective a given class is) Sorcs and Sages do well in pvp, they are able to contribute in multiple ways including damage, and yes, even burst damage.

 

I group with sorcs in multiple specs almost every day (IRL friends) and play one myself. They do not have some of the glaring problems that other classes have, and IMO they have no problems making effective contributions to PVP.

 

Would i pick a dps sorc for a "who can do the most damage in one ability activation" contest? No of course not.

 

Ill wait for the combat logs, then we can do some real comparisons for both sustained and burst DPS.

[Samaul]

This is exaggeration for effect.

 

I have a 50 champion geared op

 

I have a mid 30s geared slinger (sniper) (pls non of the your not 50 your opinion isnt valid ********, ive got plenty of 50s this just doesnt happen to be one of them)

 

Neither of them has appreciably more damage to drop someone that my sorc does. The damage is just different. The slinger its more bursty, but then thats sort of their thing. The ops its front loaded, but if you think Ops have it better off than sorcs dps-wise, your in for a big suprise... just be happy your not an Op is all i can say.

 

The pressure dps plus burst that you can put out with a sorc is not 50% of an Op or a Sniper. Those number are just wrong. Also your numbers for other classes are just that, absolute best case scenarios. Similar best case scenarios for sages/sorcs will put you at significantly more than "50 percent at best" damage of those classes.

 

Sorcs/Sages have no problems succeeding in pvp, even when evaluated on multiple metrics (not just scoreboard fluff) And they arent all just amazing players doing well in spite of their handicaps, some of them are facerolling their way to success, some are skillfully playing their class to its strengths with every variation in between.

 

When we get combat logs in 1.2 we can have a proper discussion. Until then its all just subjective posturing, and observations/opinions from gameplay.

 

PvP is more than metrics. Getting owned over and over and over again 1v1 just is not FUN. Burst is fun. Front-loaded dps is fun. Respawning over and over again is not fun.

[BiggDirty]

My point was, that just because their damage is good, it doesn't mean squat when everyone else's is better. I used the 15k example to exaggerate the disparity and illustrate the point further.

 

In reality the disparity in dps is obviously not that huge, but it's still there.

 

Now you're claiming that sages do NOT in fact have the lowest damage? Wait for the combat logs if you want to, they aren't gonna show me anything that I don't already know.

 

I have 17k health, and I frequently use 2 bubbles and a 35% medpac during a 1v1 encounter.

 

That's around 26k health.

 

I have been killed in less than 10 seconds MANY times by marauders, juggernauts, snipers, assassins, operatives, powertechs, and mercenaries.

 

I don't need a combat log to tell me that my sage cannot put out 26k damage in 10 seconds. Not even remotely close.

 

We have the lowest single target damage in the game, and I'd bet anything on that.

[Samaul]

My point was, that just because their damage is good, it doesn't mean squat when everyone else's is better. I used the 15k example to exaggerate the disparity and illustrate the point further.

 

In reality the disparity in dps is obviously not that huge, but it's still there.

 

Now you're claiming that sages do NOT in fact have the lowest damage? Wait for the combat logs if you want to, they aren't gonna show me anything that I don't already know.

 

I have 17k health, and I frequently use 2 bubbles and a 35% medpac during a 1v1 encounter.

 

That's around 26k health.

 

I have been killed in less than 10 seconds MANY times by marauders, juggernauts, snipers, assassins, operatives, powertechs, and mercenaries.

 

I don't need a combat log to tell me that my sage cannot put out 26k damage in 10 seconds. Not even remotely close.

 

We have the lowest single target damage in the game, and I'd bet anything on that.

 

The problem with our dps is the hybrid spec (not after 1.2). The hybrid dps seems OP until you look at the lack of burst. What we really need is a buff to our pure dps specs that give us some single-target burst.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Samaul

[L-RANDLE]

The problem with our dps is the hybrid spec (not after 1.2). The hybrid dps seems OP until you look at the lack of burst. What we really need is a buff to our pure dps specs that give us some single-target burst.

 

We did get a buff dude... Albeit slight, but a buff none the less. Tell me EXACTLY what you are wearing and these stats (have you mod/enha swapped BTW):

 

WP

END

POW

SURGE

 

Yes I use trinks to burst better, but being a Sage/Sorc was NEVER about burst from a DPS standpoint. It's about being the long ranged jerk to make melee life miserable, cutting the other team off with lift/stun/wave to get a cap on Alderaan, and AoE madness that is Voidstar. I think the pure DPS tree is somewhat crappy as well and could use another buff, but we can still self-heal, bubble

 

Sages/Sorcs are not the "movers" of this game, we are the ultimate bantha fodder... Almost tankie without having any "true" tanking abilities or armor. Our goal is to stay alive, be annoying, laugh when we DoT people down...

 

 

KYC: KNOW YOUR CLASS

[Samaul]

We did get a buff dude... Albeit slight, but a buff none the less. Tell me EXACTLY what you are wearing and these stats (have you mod/enha swapped BTW):

 

WP

END

POW

SURGE

 

Yes I use trinks to burst better, but being a Sage/Sorc was NEVER about burst from a DPS standpoint. It's about being the long ranged jerk to make melee life miserable, cutting the other team off with lift/stun/wave to get a cap on Alderaan, and AoE madness that is Voidstar. I think the pure DPS tree is somewhat crappy as well and could use another buff, but we can still self-heal, bubble

 

Sages/Sorcs are not the "movers" of this game, we are the ultimate bantha fodder... Almost tankie without having any "true" tanking abilities or armor. Our goal is to stay alive, be annoying, laugh when we DoT people down...

 

 

KYC: KNOW YOUR CLASS

 

My stats are full champion Force Master gear stats. There is no way that any stat, gear or spec change my burst will go up from 1-3k to the 4-10k that other dps classes/specs have.

[BiggDirty]

We did get a buff dude... Albeit slight, but a buff none the less. Tell me EXACTLY what you are wearing and these stats (have you mod/enha swapped BTW):

 

WP

END

POW

SURGE

 

Yes I use trinks to burst better, but being a Sage/Sorc was NEVER about burst from a DPS standpoint. It's about being the long ranged jerk to make melee life miserable, cutting the other team off with lift/stun/wave to get a cap on Alderaan, and AoE madness that is Voidstar. I think the pure DPS tree is somewhat crappy as well and could use another buff, but we can still self-heal, bubble

 

Sages/Sorcs are not the "movers" of this game, we are the ultimate bantha fodder... Almost tankie without having any "true" tanking abilities or armor. Our goal is to stay alive, be annoying, laugh when we DoT people down...

 

 

KYC: KNOW YOUR CLASS

 

Everything you said applies to pug warzones.

 

In a rated wz with competent premades, the only person who's life is gonna be miserable is yours. Nobody is gonna let you sit back and tickle people with your AOE garbage.

 

You are not tanky at all. The second that the other team sees you, you will have 4 melee in your face, CC'ing you until you are dead, and there will not be a damn thing your healer can do about it because they are all putting out 4k dps which is impossible to heal through, and you are the only class in the game without any kind of defensive cooldown.

 

You are a free kill, and you will die first. Every.... single.... time.

 

When the PvP community realizes this, sages will be shunned, just like snipers are now. No premade who wants to win will want you in their group, because you are nothing but a liability.

 

But, if your opinion is that sages are awesome in pug warzones, well I can't argue with you there. I destroy random scrubs, because they don't focus me, they don't interrupt my TK throw, and they basically just suck.

 

That isn't fun for me though. You can only play so many games and get 600k damage before you get bored and start wondering what it's like to play with competent opponents. Then when you find out what it's like, you regret ever rolling such a useless class.