Operative vs Assassin

[Dmasterr]

Sure thing bob.

That's all you got? no arguments on how operatives are worth taking into your team over other classes,team that you aim to get rank 1 with.

 

All you got is remark that shows you do not believe my kind of experience matters. Really?

 

Please tell me more mr random assassin.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dmasterr

[upzie]

That's all you got? no arguments on how operatives are worth taking into your team over other classes,team that you aim to get rank 1 with.

 

All you got is remark that shows you do not believe my kind of experience matters. Really?

 

Please tell me more mr random assassin.

 

No reason to write anything else, since your one of those persons who feels offended if ppl dont agree with him.

 

Amazing that you didnt even understand my post though, to funny frankly

 

Mr random Op.

Edited March 19, 2012 by upzie

[mausty]

valid points Edited March 19, 2012 by mausty

[Dmasterr]

No reason to write anything else, since your one of those persons who feels offended if ppl dont agree with him.

 

Amazing that you didnt even understand my post though, to funny frankly

 

Mr random Op.

 

what was there to understand, the many MANY reasons you gave for ppl to bring dps operatives into their team?

[Bocherel]

what was there to understand, the many MANY reasons you gave for ppl to bring dps operatives into their team?

 

Well if anything we have Greg Zoeller who gave us some good reasons to NOT bring Ops into WZ, they hurt the poor kids feelings so they want to bring the operative population as close as possible to zero :

 

If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun. We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe.

 

I mean... woh

 

Just sad. I'd love to see their "measurable stats" because the last time I checked ONE operative per WZ isn't a team.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Bocherel

[GrandMike]

Well Greg Zoeller gave us reasons to NOT bring Ops into WZ, they hurt the poor kids feelings so they want to bring the operative population as close as possible to zero :

 

 

 

Sad, just sad...

 

As i said, they killed the class, it has no puepose now, and it will have evem less purpose after 1.2

 

Some good "balancing" there.

 

Thats why i rerolled GW2

[Astarica]

Operative makes good healers on Huttball where mobility is a premium.

 

I"m not sure if the class has anything special elsewhere, though I don't think they're particularly weak. They can't compare to Assassins, but very few classes can. Part of the reason is that most Operative are terrible players and value not dying than anything. Here's a scenario that plays out countless time in Alderran:

 

Random guy + me (Assassin, stealthed) defend a side node. An Operative stelathed all the way to the node (neither of saw him the whole time, so he didn't start out visible), Hidden Strike the visible guy. I come out of stealth and stun him, effectively ending his burst immediately. The Op will blow every cooldown getting one guy to a low %, and if extremely lucky he can kill him, and then use Vanish to run away while taking an extremely convoluted path to escape, since he's in no shape to defeat the other guy (usualy me) not to mention whoever he killed is going to return to combat in 10 seconds.

 

Now the fact that the Operative lost isn't a sign of weakness. It's the fact that he first started out taking a very long time to get to the node (since neither of us saw him, he must be stealthed the entire time), used all his cooldown to kill a guy who is likely to immediately respawn, and then used his best escape cooldown to run away while taking a convoluted path (since defender will spam AEs on all the likely escape paths). In this sequence it can take a minute just for the Operative to finally elude the defenders and escape successfully, yet what's the gain? If he died, it'd take less time than that to respawn with full health. The defenders had nothing else to do besides looking for him, so the time they spent patrolling the area is no loss to them. The best you can hope for is that using all your cooldown you kill one guy and escape, but that one guy will just take the speeder back in 10 seconds.

 

In such a case, the Operative would be far better to simply immediately die when he realized he walked into a trap so he can respawn and join the fight elsewhere, because there's really no way he can beat 1 on 2 no matter what but most Op I see are concerned about not dying that they'll do whatever it takes to survive, even though the 2 defenders have no chance of losing the node against a single person.

[Bocherel]

^ I'm not sure how it apply to operative, you're describing a specific type of player regardless of the class.

[Dmasterr]

Operative makes good healers on Huttball where mobility is a premium.

.

 

Until people discover they have snares, roots and stuns... aaaand the dreaded knockback off ledge =there goes your mobility, merc not only has the best knockback also wears heavy armor which makes him a better healer.

 

Healing spec aside, where does it leave operative dps ?

 

And the scenario you describes is solo queue WZ, i am talking about Rated WZ teams going for rank 1, you know teams of competent players on voice chat.

 

Killing bad players in solo queue is all operative dps is good for, something you will never encounter in competitive play.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Astarica]

Until people discover they have snares, roots and stuns... aaaand the dreaded knockback off ledge =there goes your mobility, merc not only has the best knockback also wears heavy armor which makes him a better healer.

 

Healing spec aside, where does it leave operative dps ?

 

And the scenario you describes is solo queue WZ, i am talking about Rated WZ teams going for rank 1, you know teams of competent players on voice chat.

 

Killing bad players in solo queue is all operative dps is good for, something you will never encounter in competitive play.

 

All healers are suscpetible of being knocked off a ledge so that's hardly unique to Operative. The thing Op have going for them is that in Huttball you're generally trying to heal a guy who is constantly moving through all kinds of obstructions, so the ability to heal while moving is quite useful compared to the other two heal types who tends to have to stay still to heal.

 

I don't know if there's anything noteworthy about Operative DPS. I rarely see them try to fight anyone outside of stealth, so even if their DPS is good, I can't tell. Their burst DPS certainly doesn't bother me on my Assassin, but less armored classes might feel threatened.

[Astarica]

^ I'm not sure how it apply to operative, you're describing a specific type of player regardless of the class.

 

Player behavior is usually influenced by the class you play. For example if you're a class that can't run away (say a tank) you usually fight to the death. Operative and Sorcerers seem to try to run away the most probably because the class has a set of tools for running away, but running away is not always a good idea in PvP. This indirectly makes the class weaker because if you're running away, you're obviously not doing anything useful at all. I see a lot of Op on my side that'd just stayed stealthed for a very long time while on the offensive. They clearly can't be doing any DPS while stealthed, so that weakens our side's ability to attack. I know their DPS out of stealth isn't anything impressive, but their DPS while in stealth is actually 0 until they leave it.

[Ucsimplyme]

Until people discover they have snares, roots and stuns... aaaand the dreaded knockback off ledge =there goes your mobility, merc not only has the best knockback also wears heavy armor which makes him a better healer.

 

Healing spec aside, where does it leave operative dps ?

 

And the scenario you describes is solo queue WZ, i am talking about Rated WZ teams going for rank 1, you know teams of competent players on voice chat.

 

Killing bad players in solo queue is all operative dps is good for, something you will never encounter in competitive play.

 

In rated warzones where every point of dps matters, Operatives will outperform tank-assassins for dropping key targets. Against good (rated) healers, tank assassins won't have the burst to drop priority targets before the enemy receives auxiliary healing. Tank assassins will be the premier tanks for those war zones because they will bring all the necessary defensive tools (guard/taunt/challenge/pull) while maintaining solid damage. But no, they won't replace dps spots (assuming equally geared and equally skilled players).

 

The significant dps superiority of the operative over the tank assassin can't be proven empirically until we get damage logs but I would be unsurprised to see a 20-40% damage difference during the critical response time window (~5 secs). Spike damage kills players, not sustained (unless the other team has terrible healers who can't manage their power).

[Doom_star]

I've read all the replies to this thread and I thought I'd throw in my 2c.

 

It should be known that we are not talking about an assassin in general here, but a specific spec. Darkness or tank spec. A tank spec assassin in dps gear can fullfill the role of a stealth ganker with a large amount of DPS. Ok so not as much as an op, but its decent. Comparing the tank spec, and the DPS spec together is valid since well, the purpose of what the OP is talking about is the same. Stealth class that can kill a target faster than a lot of DPS classes in organized PvP with very very high survivability. I have been wtfpwned by an operative a few times, but im Inf or balance.

 

The point the OP is making is valid, however, I do think that the point of the tank assassin with DPS gear shouldn't be changed at all. The burst for the operative is insane, I'd say way too much. More than needed I'd say. Maybe take a bit of it and give it to survivability. Or atleast give the op a choice, shall I open up with crap tons of dmg, or enough to get the job done and ****. Because, playing as inf, I wtfbbq people with my burst and get the heck out of dodge. That or im dead meat.

 

So as with some of the others in this thread, Keep the mediocre assasssin tank dps and fix the operatives.

[Dmasterr]

In rated warzones where every point of dps matters, Operatives will outperform tank-assassins for dropping key targets. Against good (rated) healers, tank assassins won't have the burst to drop priority targets before the enemy receives auxiliary healing. Tank assassins will be the premier tanks for those war zones because they will bring all the necessary defensive tools (guard/taunt/challenge/pull) while maintaining solid damage. But no, they won't replace dps spots (assuming equally geared and equally skilled players).

 

The significant dps superiority of the operative over the tank assassin can't be proven empirically until we get damage logs but I would be unsurprised to see a 20-40% damage difference during the critical response time window (~5 secs). Spike damage kills players, not sustained (unless the other team has terrible healers who can't manage their power).

 

This isn't just about operative vs tank assassin. This is about why would you bring an operative into your team, and if you really want stealth assassins are better in group play

Edited March 19, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Limelite]

OP is ether a troll or just a fail at pvp comparing a 31 point concealment OP to a somehow 31/31/13+ assassin. Listing abilities for different trees as if they come with 1 build and going "omg OP!"

 

And anyways OPs in 1.2 are the best healers in the game not best dps granted but what are assassins best at? Squishiest of tanks and squishiest of dps only managing to function in a tank/dps blend that contrarily to what everyone seems to think doesn't have that good of dps it is a build based on utility and survival and yes it will outlast most in a 1 on 1 unless you're a healer or a damn good marauder.

[Dmasterr]

OP is ether a troll or just a fail at pvp comparing a 31 point concealment OP to a somehow 31/31/13+ assassin. Listing abilities for different trees as if they come with 1 build and going "omg OP!"

 

I did that where?

 

And anyways OPs in 1.2 are the best healers in the game not best dps granted but what are assassins best at? Squishiest of tanks and squishiest of dps only managing to function in a tank/dps blend that contrarily to what everyone seems to think doesn't have that good of dps it is a build based on utility and survival and yes it will outlast most in a 1 on 1 unless you're a healer or a damn good marauder.

 

We are not talking about healers , dps operatives are the squishiest class in game competing with dps sorcs for the spot, and game is not based on 1v1 or solo q wz.

 

.... and you still didn't give a reason why should you bring a dps operative into rated wz

[Limelite]

why bring any dps other than marauder? If you want OP dps then thats it. They got best single target dps and unremovable 20% heal debuf, ohh wait i forgot they're also unkillable... Only downside is lack of cc. If i was making a rated group i'd likely make a group with OP healer, assassin tank and 1 or 2 marauders

[Dmasterr]

why bring any dps other than marauder? If you want OP dps then thats it. They got best single target dps and unremovable 20% heal debuf, ohh wait i forgot they're also unkillable... Only downside is lack of cc. If i was making a rated group i'd likely make a group with OP healer, assassin tank and 1 or 2 marauders

 

My point is that bioware in their "great wisdom" buffed the marauder class and nerfed operative further widening the gap. It also shows that "their math" is based on PVE encounters and not pvp.

 

"how dare operatives play dps, they should all spec heals and support force wielding classes"

[CrunkShizzle]

there is now literally nothing an Operative can do that an Assassin can't do better. .

 

well you still have the rogue type playstyle though

 

operatives seem to do that better then assassins from what ive looked at

[Dmasterr]

well you still have the rogue type playstyle though

 

What has preference of style to do with competitive group pvp performance?

 

operatives seem to do that better then assassins from what ive looked at

 

That is incredibly anecdotal

 

answered

Edited March 20, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Caelrie]

Group pvp, aka Premades, are all about tanks and healers, 2 tanks and 3 healers will pretty much be the standard norm, 3 dps spots.... 1 of those will go to marauder for the heal debuff... so that leaves 2 spots,.... so unless you REALLY want the 5% crit class bonus and for some reason do not like snipers (who are better @ defending objectives) i see no reaspon to pick an operative DPS for your "rank 1 team" goal.

 

Personaly i would fill those 3 dps spots marauder/jugg all rage spec for AOE bombing; i can fill my need for knockbacks by bringing 1(2) assassin tank (2 for pull ability, or powertech the second) and having all 3 healers mercs if possible

 

With the legacy system, any class can cast the crit buff. No need to bring an agent/smuggler for it.

[Tzou]

lol someone is trying to compare a TANK vs a DPS..

 

ill try not to laugh and i will ask him this:how many of his skills bypasses sins armor and in what percentage?and then pls answer me for the opposite situation.

 

most of sins hits mitigates on every toons armor while OPs dont.

 

OPs 1st hits can get any toon down to 50% and more while sins needs proccs to do that and time.

 

and again u cant compare a tank vs a DPS..

 

this thread is so wrong that i makes me wonder if games needs a IQ test before u can play them.

[MrXen]

lol someone is trying to compare a TANK vs a DPS..

 

ill try not to laugh and i will ask him this:how many of his skills bypasses sins armor and in what percentage?and then pls answer me for the opposite situation.

 

most of sins hits mitigates on every toons armor while OPs dont.

 

OPs 1st hits can get any toon down to 50% and more while sins needs proccs to do that and time.

 

and again u cant compare a tank vs a DPS..

 

this thread is so wrong that i makes me wonder if games needs a IQ test before u can play them.

 

I wish that soooo sooo much. I also wish that had to happen to be allowed to breathe. Would be so nice.

Edited March 20, 2012 by MrXen

[Bulvark]

Uh... /boggled

 

It's like me taking my Sin and having it broke down next to a sage and saying the sage is OP since it can heal and shield.

 

You can not compare 1) DPS for tank for ballance and 2) try pub version vs imp version in future "I suck compared to this class becuase.... " theads. Even tho the mirror BW uses is kinda like those found in cheap carnival funhouses.

 

Other then that I can always count on comming to the forums for a good laugh on a bad day. Thanks;)

Edited March 26, 2012 by Paralassa
content

[CrunkShizzle]

answered

 

ok so lets say this

 

if i had to choose between deception assassin or concealment operative.which of the two would be the better choice for a rogue like class to roll for rated warzones solo queueing

 

i mean,i dont really plan on any serious business stuff i just wanna queue up every now and then and stomp people