Juggernauts vs Marauder PVP.

[Retro-]

I have a 50 juggernaut and 50 marauder myself so I have had the experience of playing both in pvp.

 

I play both depending on the mood im in and how I want to try and pvp that day.

 

What I don't get reading the forums is all the Juggernaut belly aching. Guys seriously Juggernaut is a tank class. You are not meant to be the big damage dealer..

 

I hear people tell me when juggernauts are just the 2nd tier guy in pvp and that marauder/sentinel is the bomb.

 

Well from my point of view as a decent but not uber player. Juggernaut is viewed incorrectly.

 

As an Immortal spec for pvp whos gear is champion working on bm. I don't approach pvp with the mindset that im going to kill anyone, infact I don't care if I kill a single person.

 

What I do enjoy is.....my ability to guard my team mates, the ability to absorb damage and protect turrets, doors, the ability to carry the ball in huttball and take craploads of damage all the while running to the end. I honestly feel I did my job when I have to be focused fired down by the other team. All the while my only concern is buying time for my team to get to where I am or to buy them time to say get the bomb on the other door etc.

 

Force Leap, Force Push, Force Choke, Screams, Shields, Hp Increases, aoe stuns.

 

All summed up. I work to assist my team since pvp in this game is TEAM.

 

Again this is my view on this class but seriously if your crying about dps as a juggernaut in our HEAVY armor, Shields, Absorption filled skills, varied cc abilities. You might want to re roll a dps class. FYI the dps classes are those guys in squishy gear, carrying the "im going to hurt you really bad and make you cry weapons"

Edited March 19, 2012 by Retro-

[Goretzu]

You're absolutely right.

 

A Jugg is a better tank in PvP than a Marauder........ in everything else the Marauder is better (and more so in 1.2 as it stands).

[Retro-]

@bananaface

 

What is your point? Who cares how much damage your doing right now, did you even read what I posted.?

 

I am confused why people playing a tank class cry and whine because they won't do all the dps in pvp or to elaborate whine because damage is being taken away from a tank class, I know lots of juggernauts who play tank in pvp and if that isn't how you like to play juggernaut I understand but that doesn't mean they should be able to deal damage like a marauder or assassin and im only referring to the melee classes because its more consistent.

 

Regardless of how much damage a jugg does now, the fact is its a tank class and im sure lots of players will figure out interesting ways to still do damage after 1.2 the overall point is if your really upset because your damage is being reduced on your juggernaut well then perhaps you should go play a "damage" class. Juggs do damage but are not meant to be the big damage dealers in this game. Would be nice if it stayed that way forever but it isn't and it wouldn't.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Retro-

[Retro-]

I play both classes so I am fine with marauders being better in 1.2 if you don't play both classes @ 50 you have no real clue how hard it can be to play marauder in a game filled with cc.

 

Dps marauder doesn't last too long in a game of troopers/sages.

 

I think 1.2 is like any other patch in any game a work in progress, its always been that way in mmo's deal with it.

[Xaero]

http://postimage.org/image/d47htsv1b/

pls su, cuz yu know nuthing

 

Noticed a Justin Bieber name on your screenshoot

 

What is your spec by the way?

[Vember]

I play both too, and outside of immortal spec, marauder tanks better in pvp than juggernaut.

 

And does more damage.

 

By the way, Vengeance and Rage are not tank specs. They're dps specs. Juggernaut is not a "tank class" unless its immortal spec.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Vember

[bananaface]

the point is, dont say juggs cant dps cause you clearly know nuthing.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cRZhZhrRbdrMdGR.1

the spec i roll with.

[Sookster]

Jugg can dps, but not nearly what marauder can- vengeance is ok with decent sustained dps and gives you more health and 4 second immunity to CC after a force charge, but that's about it. Rage sucks because your'e pigeonholed into ravage and choke to get a giant smash off and anyone with half a brain will see it coming and put you away. Mine stays immortal (and using shii-cho along with 6% dmg buff during Belsavis dailies) and I look forward to the self heal ability in 1.2.

 

Oh and marauders can tank pretty well in pvp, you know why people CC them when they're at half health? The cooldowns are nice, I've been able to kill a nearly full health pyro powertech with <20% health left on my marauder.

 

PS- bananaface, that's a little more than what a darkness (tank) assassin with dps mods pulled on my server, you stack alot of power and pop that power relic every 90s?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Sookster

[Retro-]

bananaface,

 

I don't care what your build is how much damage you do, I am happy for you that you are doing lots of damage, the point again is...people who are suprised that damage is being lowered on juggernauts need to give there heads a shake. The class is classified as a tank, yes swtor has cross specs etc, but damage is not our primary skill in this game like it or not and to honestly believe you should do more damage than a marauder is simply stupid and ignorant. (marauder is simply one example of a dps im using)

 

One argument to make in favor of the juggernaut is that assassins/shadows probably tank overall at the moment better than us, with there abiities to hold aggro. but that is another discussion.

 

Im sure after the patch you will find a way to keep high dps and I applaud you if you do.

 

At the end of the day the juggernaut does have lots of offer even as a tank in pvp and that will be amplied with ranked pvp, no not everyone will be a tank juggernaut/guardian but tanks including the pts and vanguards will play a pivotal role im sure in ranked teams.

[Retro-]

I think people have a misunderstanding of tanking in pvp, from my perspective its not just taking damage that makes you a tank, the marauder has no skills to speak of that assists the team.

 

You can't guard another player, you don't have aoe taunts, or taunts. They do share the aoe stuns, so thats helpful. Yeah they both have shields and what not but the juggernaut also has better use of force choke and force push is a big plus.

 

Again when I play my juggernaut im not realy trying to go out and kill people im trying to support my team as best as I can with my supporting skills.

 

When I play my marauder I go for damage.

 

I don't expect people to agree but I will still call juggernauts cry babies if they are whining about damage they do. We have had it too good for too long and just like sorcs/sages its time to start facing the facts BW is going to adjust us for pvp and pve, deal with it or quit.

[ExpLiciTSainT]

bananaface,

 

I don't care what your build is how much damage you do, I am happy for you that you are doing lots of damage, the point again is...people who are suprised that damage is being lowered on juggernauts need to give there heads a shake. The class is classified as a tank, yes swtor has cross specs etc, but damage is not our primary skill in this game like it or not and to honestly believe you should do more damage than a marauder is simply stupid and ignorant. (marauder is simply one example of a dps im using)

 

One argument to make in favor of the juggernaut is that assassins/shadows probably tank overall at the moment better than us, with there abiities to hold aggro. but that is another discussion.

 

Im sure after the patch you will find a way to keep high dps and I applaud you if you do.

 

At the end of the day the juggernaut does have lots of offer even as a tank in pvp and that will be amplied with ranked pvp, no not everyone will be a tank juggernaut/guardian but tanks including the pts and vanguards will play a pivotal role im sure in ranked teams.

 

No, the class OFFERS a tanking TREE. It is not a tanking class altogether. Just like Mercs can heal or DPS and do really really well at DPS.

 

If you want to fight over the DPS Mara vs Jugg comments, it's very simple. Mara have an amazing single target DPS tree, we have an amazing multi target DPS tree.

 

CC's are nice, but let's face facts, they are on a 1 minute cooldown. I'm always facing a rage restricted situation if I am attack first. Juggs are situational and very very easy to counter. I've played certain people in Warzones who are very good at countering Rage spec. I've had to change my rotation to trick them into countering me too early. I can't sit back out of the AOE damage and spam skills. I can get very high numbers in damage, with-in a Warzone, but it's all about hitting multiple people. A mara that plays with me can often beat my numbers, using his single target dps.

 

Why are people so upset with making advance classes play differently? Yes I could tank, but tanking in PVP can be a waste when every single jugg that joins is a tank.

 

Point is, if your debate is to change to, Tank classes should be lower DPS, then you should add that they should be increased life span. If I am to reduce my DPS by 10%, then increase me ability to take 10% more damage from ANY player in the game.

 

As a full spec'd tank, in Immortal, I still die from an Operative in 6 seconds.

[Retro-]

I can see your point of what your saying about the trees, and to be very fair all melee classes get the short end of the stick in pvp and it does suck when a company starts messing with stuff we all like, I can also appreciate and respect that other people like to play the juggernaut as a damage class, I have done it numerous times its fun.

 

What im simply getting at is im not suprised this is happening, we are tanks whether you agree or not we are and its becoming evident that bw wants us to tank, but finish second in damage and I honestly can't say that isn't fair.

 

without arguing about the whole issue I can atleast understand how others are going to be frustrated about these changes.

 

the only options you realy have are quit or deal with it, every game does this to each class nowadays at some point then eventually stuff turns around and its someone else getting the bat.

 

We can sit all day going around and around but bw pulls the strings and decide what will happen.

 

My hope is at the end of the day the melee classes get a more fair shake in pvp while not screwing over the pve crowd.

[Retro-]

my original post was btw trying to express that as a juggernaut, I don't expect to be able to dps as well as other classes, that bw gave me these awesome abilities in to help me keep myself alive.

 

I also wanted to point out that as a juggernaut we have abilities we offer to the team only tanks can offer and as awesome as a marauder/sent is theres alot of ways of locking them down and preventing them from doing there awesome damage.

 

I think alot of people see this class (juggernaut) and think there a waste when really theres alot of support we can offer in teams.

 

Again this is a team game there have to be support players to get the job done.

 

As for the full immortal spec...i have had more than my fair share of ops come after me and I can atleast survive if i have my skills available its not impossible even against the best operatives.

[ExpLiciTSainT]

As a Rage Spec Jugg, I can kill an Operative that opens up on me (if all cooldowns are there). As an immortal jugg, I WILL die unless a healer helps immediately and a DPS kills the operative.

 

I am fine being 2nd to 1v1 DPS. I am fine being tied to many to many DPS. As much as our AOE debuff is nice to have, I don't feel it's any help to anyone but the healer. To be honest, I am much more helpful killing than mitigating. I can keep 1 healer alive against 3+ DPS as Rage. As immortal, we will both die because I do not have the DPS to kill people.

 

Objectively, it doesn't make any sense either. I basically out live the situation as a tank. I've guarded doors by myself to help win. Then a stealth comes up, puts me to sleep (if my unleash is on CD), another person grabs the door (say voidstar), while he's capping, I get hit with another stun, door capped.

 

The only good tanks have in PVP is carrying the hutball (and honestly, f that game is boring), and guarding a healer.

 

As my Mara buddy says everytime we win a game without heals (against a team with extremely good heals) or a tank (even hutball), it just takes focused strong DPS to win a PVP match.

 

I'm not entirely upset with these changes. However, if it was me, I would leave everything how it is and change 2 things.

 

Enrage needs to be on a 30 second timer, not 1 minute. Force Choke needs to be on a 30 second timer, not one minute.

 

OR

 

Give me a better filler attack that's not casting that adds survivability and/or damage.

 

Why make people upset when you can simply make the class more fun to play?

[Vember]

I think people have a misunderstanding of tanking in pvp, from my perspective its not just taking damage that makes you a tank, the marauder has no skills to speak of that assists the team.

 

 

Teamwide Marauder buffs: Healing, damage boost, 80% runspeed, 10% mitigation, as well as a 20% heal debuff.

 

"taunting" is only part of being a tank....survivability is a big part of it, and juggs outside of immortal don't have any. Marauders do.

 

Not sure what game you're playing.

[Lymain]

This thread is confusing since the only Juggernaut DPS that got nerfed seems to be Rage in Shii-Cho form. Immortal DPS is definitely going up, but the AE taunt cooldown is increasing in that spec, which is a key nerf to the "utility" role the OP described. Edited March 19, 2012 by Lymain

[ExpLiciTSainT]

Teamwide Marauder buffs: Healing, damage boost, 80% runspeed, 10% mitigation, as well as a 20% heal debuff.

 

"taunting" is only part of being a tank....survivability is a big part of it, and juggs outside of immortal don't have any. Marauders do.

 

Not sure what game you're playing.

 

Exactly.

[Wrathoran]

i dont see why because my class got a tanking tree that i am branded as a tank.

 

Mercenary get a healing tree, are they healers? should their damage be subpar?

 

Paladin in wow got a tanking and healing tree, their damage should be subpar too (it was mouhaha)

 

Death knight got a tanking tree, their damage need to be subpar.

 

Wait! there's more! Operative got a healing tree, must be why they are getting screwed in the next patch

 

Wait! Sorcerer can heal , they need to lower the dps too.

[bananaface]

@OP

when you chose at lvl 10 your advanced clase it says:

juggernaut tank OR dps.

bioware also wants pure dps and hybrid classes to have dps within a 5% range of each other.

 

oh and a dps marauder have better defensive mechanics then a dps juggernaut.

 

nuff said.

 

@sookster

i've got a nice mix of crit/power and surge and yes popping trinkets/adrenal pretty much on cd when I got my highest burst rotation ready.

was sitting on 2 healers who were standing next to each other the entire fight and interceding the darkness assassin tank I was playing with when he had a couple of peeps on him.

Not the highest dmg I ever did cause this was onl on 2 targets, got a screenie on my old pc with more, but yeah it's the opposing teams fault anyway for letting me do this kind of dmg.

[Goretzu]

Teamwide Marauder buffs: Healing, damage boost, 80% runspeed, 10% mitigation, as well as a 20% heal debuff.

 

"taunting" is only part of being a tank....survivability is a big part of it, and juggs outside of immortal don't have any. Marauders do.

 

Not sure what game you're playing.

 

 

 

Strangely this doesn't seem to be how Bioware sees it, dispite most everyone else doing so.

[Vid-szhite]

Juggernaut is not a tank class. The only thing we have for survivability outside of Immortal is Heavy Armor and Saber ward, the former of which is a whopping 8% damage reduction increase over Medium Armor, and the latter is shared with Marauders! There's a reason Heavy Armor healers exist, and it's because armor barely does anything without a tank stance!

 

What do marauders get for damage mitigation?

 

Cloak of Pain

Predation

Obfuscate

Force Camo

Undying Rage

 

DPS Juggernauts are SQUISHIER than Marauders! Did the OP seriously say Marauders have no way to help their team? Bloodthirst! Deadly Throw (reduces healing)! Marauders have FAR more ways to help their team than a Juggernaut! Juggernauts can taunt, that's about it. Unless you're running Soresu form, you can't Guard anybody, and no DPS jugg runs Soresu form unless they're guarding the ball carrier because it murders your rage.

 

All DPS classes are meant to come within 5% of each other, whether they have tank trees or healer trees or are pure DPS. Saying "well Juggernauts should just tank because Marauders are pure DPS" - no! We are not a tank class just because we can choose to tank and Marauders can't! Stop saying it! I have a Sentinel too, and I think it's hogwash!

Edited March 20, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Rolzhard]

I play Rage Juggie but I'm wishing I rolled Marauder. I love the Jugg's playstyle but really all the reasons I rolled Juggernaut are completely invalid. I rolled Jugg for its PVP "tanking" capabilities. Tanks are supposed to be damage sponges? In the forefront of the action. Boatloads of utility. Not in this game. I started off Immortal but I'm Rage now. (and loving it)

 

Immortal Spec. With no damage and defense counting for nothing Tank spec for PVP is a total fail. With all the trooper/sages combos you blow up in no time flat. The little extra health you have and the extra cd is an imaginary benefit only. Unless your running with a dedicated healer or a premade - fuggedabout it. With Rage you get in their face and scatter the chickens. And its feathers everywhere. Who wants to only PVP when the healer shows up?

 

Jugg versus Marauder. Any Jugg knows that, equally geared, this is a toe to toe that he will lose because the marauder is going to out cooldown you and his dps hurts. Force Push is your friend^^. But really the joke is that for all our heavy armor Juggs are squishier than Marauders.

 

I see Marauders as being warriors without the "utility" bs.

 

I'm going to see how irritating the 12 sec cd is on Smash etc but I'm sorely tempted to take my Marauder to 50 in anticipation of 1.2

[Foenixz]

I am not sure what this thread is about as the Devs have consistently said that all DPS specs will be viable and teh goal is to have them all within 5% of each other. I believe this to be true.

 

So someone is clearly not understanding that. As a vengeance juggs, I have NO issues beating Marauders .... at all. I have to many ways to lower their dps and to survive. I also have a lot of hits that can usually whittle them down to less than 50% in my opening rotation. I am not saying I win all the time but I never run from one.

 

There is a Tank Tree bu the other 2 trees are DPS not tanking. People who bring the WoW mentality of tanks classes (Juggs PowerTech Assassin) and say they are not relevant DPS wise need to take a step back because anyone of those can ruin your day

[Goretzu]

I am not sure what this thread is about as the Devs have consistently said that all DPS specs will be viable and teh goal is to have them all within 5% of each other. I believe this to be true.

 

 

Then I have a bridge to sell you.

 

Focus Jugg vs Focus Mara in 1.2 will have the Focus Mara doing way more than +5% DPS, and yet they'll still have excellent (and arguably superior utility) and be more surviable too.

 

 

Combat log are going to be a whole new can of worms when they are showing +20-30% on classes that are superiour in every other way too.

[Dhovakhiin]

you know the way juggernaut has 2 damage trees? no?