tkdlauri Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Also if people think they will get a RS every 6 sec now guaranteed they are wrong. You wait 6 sec then FB/RP proc then start when proc RS you are looking at min 8-10 sec might as well go AP for the 100% crit chance every 15 sec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Your statement implies that dealing ultra-high damage is balanced. It is not, if I wasn't clear. I hate internal CDs out of principle, but PPA was way too good of a talent and needed a change. Also, other procs that are just as powerful as PPA are also limited by internal CDs so this change shouldn't really be a surprise. My hope is that the 6 second internal CD will allow for more variation in PyroTech damage rotations so it can still put up desired damage output (i.e. Thermal Detonator is no longer a DPS loss). It doesn't make sense for the talent Rain of Fire to affect four abilities when you only truly use two of them. Let me ask you this. Do you not have heat problems at all currently as Pyro when dealing w/ healers and sturdy targets in PvP? Now cut your heat regeneration in half. I'm not sure where you think you will suddenly have MORE resources w/ LESS heat venting. Where are all these variations in attacks coming from? Do you not understand that the "variation" that's going to happen is you're going to be using Rapid Shots, not TD, because you will have half the heat regen you do now. If it remains the way it is currently on PTS, it's a pretty hefty nerf to one of the biggest resource-hog specs in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Then you don't play a Pyro powertech, sir. Please leave this discussion quietly. My only character is a Pyro Powertech. The assumption game is fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdlauri Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 We all know that we are OP when we get back to back to back RS procs but any suggestions on how to fix this insted of the 6sec CD that destroy's the class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 We all know that we are OP when we get back to back to back RS procs but any suggestions on how to fix this insted of the 6sec CD that destroy's the class Sure. Make it 4 second cooldown instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) The good suggestions i've both heard and thought of myself are as follows: A. Keep the RNG nature of the proc and reduce the ICD to 3 seconds. This means that, on average, we will get a proc every 6 seconds (3 second ICD +2 GCDs of FB/RP) B. Rework PPA to do this: Passively reduces the cooldown of Railshot by 9 seconds. (Thus making it a 6 second cooldown and still having the desired effect of 6s per Rail Shot, thus also allowing us to vent 8 heat every 6 seconds like the AP tree) I personally prefer B, it's consistent across the board and mirrors AP's heat management. No other suggestions i've seen have made any sense or fell in line with the intended RS every 6 seconds. Edited March 19, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdlauri Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Ya or keep it as is and reduce RS by 10% or make PPA talent reduce cool down on RS to 7 sec and take out the proc all together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Sure. Make it 4 second cooldown instead. Which will probably happen with all of the data pouring in from the PTS. Sky isn't falling, people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Which will probably happen with all of the data pouring in from the PTS. Sky isn't falling, people. Oh, I don't think it's a chicken little scenario just yet, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Oh, I don't think it's a chicken little scenario just yet, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned. I don't get concerned until these things hit the live servers, but I guess I'm just worn out of the Chicken Little syndrome currently infecting the Sorcerer forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I don't get concerned until these things hit the live servers, but I guess I'm just worn out of the Chicken Little syndrome currently infecting the Sorcerer forums. Heh, their concerns are real, imo, but that's another thread. As for being concerned, I used to hold off also. But it's been 3 months now; there have been a few class changes before this. Do you remember how thoroughly tested they were before they hit live? Because I sure do. You do realize you still can't copy a character over to the PTS, right? You have to start at level 1 and go from there. Other than the select few lv50 guilds they actually are copying over this time, there really aren't very many lv50s on the PTS to test changes, and 1.2 mostly effects endgame. Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 My experience with MMOs is that once it hits the Test server, it stays that way. SWTOR has been no exception. That's why im 'fighting back' so hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 My experience with MMOs is that once it hits the Test server, it stays that way. SWTOR has been no exception. That's why im 'fighting back' so hard. You speak as if things in an MMO can never be changed once implemented. Never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) You speak as if things in an MMO can never be changed once implemented. Never. No, I don't think that. And if we werent on here explaining to the dev team how this change slaughters pyro then it likely would stay. I've been doing a TON of posting, and so have these guys here too about the subject, I feel that when they read what we've thought and suggested, + get the data from the PTS, they'll re-adjust it to an acceptable level. Wishful thinking? Maybe. Rerolling Marauder if it does go to live? You betcha. Edited March 19, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) You speak as if things in an MMO can never be changed once implemented. Never. Of course they can. You speak as if we would want to watch them roll out a broken "fix" and then have to wait for them to fix the fix at some later date, which may or may not happen. Let me reiterate the fact that most of us cannot copy a character to the PTS to test these changes ourselves. This is a gaming forum, and people are discussing changes to their class in that game. What's the problem here? PS) My Marauder just hit 20. : ) I think I'm going to roll a Sniper also, to counter the ton of new Marauders that will be around after 1.2. Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Testing is not needed with this change though, really. Simple napkin math along with common sense about the heat management from extensively playing a Pyro PT for the past 2 months can tell you that this will absolutely demolish the spec. Intelligent players know this, and that is why theres such a huge uproar about it. Intelligent players knew that the 3-4 RS procs back to back had to go also. These are non-biased players that want our class to be balanced, but not crippled like the proposed changes would do. Edited March 19, 2012 by Theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Of course they can. You speak as if we would want to watch them roll out a broken "fix" and then have to wait for them to fix the fix at some later date, which may or may not happen. I never said anything about wanting this change, but the prevalent attitude that "THIS IS GOING TO BE BROKEN FOREVER YOU SHOULD JUST REROLL." is incredibly premature. I said before, this might not even make it to live once the data starts rolling in on what is already a very heat intensive spec. Even it does, it's one hotfix from being rolled back or otherwise improved. This is an MMO, these things happen. This is a gaming forum, and people are discussing changes to their class in that game. What's the problem here? So- So maybe if enough people complain, they will not do this? -is discussion? Encouraging whining isn't discussing it at all. Numbers and data from both the PTS and BioWare's internal tests are what are going to bring about a change. I'm aware that most people haven't been able to copy a character over, but that doesn't change the fact that those that can will send the data off to BioWare. It's through that this will be changed to something we all can agree on, not a thread encouraging people to tell BioWare how this change has ruined the emotional well-being of hundreds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) [/color] I never said anything about wanting this change, but the prevalent attitude that "THIS IS GOING TO BE BROKEN FOREVER YOU SHOULD JUST REROLL." is incredibly premature. I said before, this might not even make it to live once the data starts rolling in on what is already a very heat intensive spec. Even it does, it's one hotfix from being rolled back or otherwise improved. This is an MMO, these things happen. So- -is discussion? Encouraging whining isn't discussing it at all. Numbers and data from both the PTS and BioWare's internal tests are what are going to bring about a change. I'm aware that most people haven't been able to copy a character over, but that doesn't change the fact that those that can will send the data off to BioWare. It's through that this will be changed to something we all can agree on, not a thread encouraging people to tell BioWare how this change has ruined the emotional well-being of hundreds. I would like to refer you to Tracer Missile. "By popular demand by the community". Also, if people think it's going to destroy our heat management, then they SHOULD speak up and make their concerns known. It's not illogical to say that the more people who voice their opinion, the more of an impact it might make. Petitions work this way. Like I said, there have already been class changes, and they weren't tested at all before hitting live servers. If this had not already occurred, I'd be less inclined to think that these changes wouldn't be properly tested before 1.2. There aren't NEARLY as many endgame characters on the PTS as there should be to test ALL of the changes coming in 1.2 in, what, a couple weeks? You have a lot more faith than I do. I'm NOT just going to leave it up to the lucky few who got to have characters copied over to the PUBLIC test server. It's simple math, and it doesn't add up, and I'm going to keep saying it needs to be looked at closer. Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdlauri Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Well just to let you know my guild is testing it right now and say that this 6 sec CD can not happen it destroys the classes heat managment and can burst at all anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tifski Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) I would like to refer you to Tracer Missile. "By popular demand by the community". Comparing visual aesthetics to gameplay isn't a good idea, agree with the bulk of what you said, though. Well just to let you know my guild is testing it right now and say that this 6 sec CD can not happen it destroys the classes heat managment and can burst at all anymore Good! Speak up about it and send whatever data you can, however you can. Edited March 19, 2012 by Tifski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Well just to let you know my guild is testing it right now and say that this 6 sec CD can not happen it destroys the classes heat managment and can burst at all anymore Thank you. We're doing our part (not that it will help much) out here too. Hehe. Also, to Tifski, I completely agree that it's not usually a good idea to complain about changes you haven't been able to personally test. In this case, however, it really is pretty simple math, so I feel somewhat confident what the results would be. Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdlauri Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Ya they are testing from the pvp side of things and say that heat management is just a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Ya they are testing from the pvp side of things and say that heat management is just a joke. Yeah heat management is a joke because they never knew how to manage it in the 1st place. Let me guess.... RP>FB>FB>RS>(6 sec cd)FB>FB>FB>FB> "*** did my heat build up?! This is BS how are you supposed to manage heat in 1.2?!?!" Seriously.... all you PRO intelligent pyro Powertechs that are have over heat issues now and expect it to be worse in 1.2 are just bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Yeah heat management is a joke because they never knew how to manage it in the 1st place. Let me guess.... RP>FB>FB>RS>(6 sec cd)FB>FB>FB>FB> "*** did my heat build up?! This is BS how are you supposed to manage heat in 1.2?!?!" Seriously.... all you PRO intelligent pyro Powertechs that are have over heat issues now and expect it to be worse in 1.2 are just bad. We don't have heat issues now because we use Rapid Shots as necessary, and PPA procs around ~6 seconds. In the future, PPA will proc around 9-10 seconds, cutting our heat dissipation by about 50%. That's a LOT. If you were a pro intelligent Pyro PT, then you'd know exactly how huge 50% less regen w/ no compensation is going to be. Pyro will still be called the "RS spec", but it's going to stand for Rapid Shots now. Edited March 19, 2012 by Varicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiZrYdj Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) We don't have heat issues now because we use Rapid Shots as necessary, and PPA procs around ~6 seconds. In the future, PPA will proc around 9-10 seconds, cutting our heat dissipation by about 50%. That's a LOT. If you were a pro intelligent Pyro PT, then you'd know exactly how huge 50% less regen w/ no compensation is going to be. Pyro will still be called the "RS spec", but it's going to stand for Rapid Shots now. Funny, the 3 PT's lvl 50's copied over to PTS from my guild are not having over heat issues, still one of the best dps in PvP and are parsing numbers higher then any other class for PvE. All 3 are laughing everyday at these posts..... all you are set in stone that this is a massive nerf yet none of you have even tested it. Granted I have not tested it.... but I have access to 3 people who supply vids/screenshots with combat logs and parse data and I pick their brains in mumble daily. How many guilds got 20 lvl 50's copied over to PTS? 5? maybe? My guild is one of them.... but don't believe me..... THE SKY IS FALLING BECAUSE I READ IT IN THE NEWSPAPER!!! Edited March 19, 2012 by MiZrYdj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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