Howbadisbad Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Then maybe that is why you get rolled so much. The good operatives I have seen and faced wait for the right to strike. They don't run into the middle of the melee uncloaked. If there is a Melee the GOOD Operatives work the edges. Stealth is a huge HUGE advantage! A good Sent/Mara can average around 190k damage per WZ I see Operatives in the 300k all the time. Oh look, you uncloaked to hit someone, and someone else attacked you. Oh look, all those random AOEs flying around just knocked out out of stealth. Oh look, you were just seen from 20m away and attacked. You are now in combat and can't leave until the other person dies, or it has been like 20 seconds. Good luck doing tons of damage while you are unstealthed though. If an Operative is not unstealthed more than he is stealthed, the enemy team is bad, or the Operative is not contributing to the win (Cherry Picking). Edited March 21, 2012 by Howbadisbad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) That is exactly what they do. Read Georg Zoeller's statement. If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun. We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe. You might want to read a little more carefully. Lets parse this sentence with a little critical thinking. "If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun" Meaning people are getting killed way to fast. Bioware hears complaints and ask the Question? Maybe they are getting killed way to fast because there is a balance issue? Bioware then investigates the issue using We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives After investigation they determine that indeed the QQ were correct the Operatives we overpowered. The result of which could mean for the player base. "but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun" What a reasonable person would conclude is they changed the game not because the QQers were crying but investigated an issue and found that statistically the QQ were correct Operatives are OP based upon the facts! Edited March 21, 2012 by DosPeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agemnon Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Marauder - the strongest DPS in the game and arguably most powerful PvP class in organized PvP get massive buffs. Operative - the weakest sustained DPS in the game has sustained DPS nerfed while keeping high burst. This should confirm to everyone how clueless Bioware is when it comes to class balance. I've lost all hope. I hate to say it but this puts the nail in the coffin for me. I don't see bioware suddenly having an epiphany and understanding class balance any time in the near future. Do you? Let's just say I'm renewing my WoW subscription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Oh look, you uncloaked to hit someone, and someone else attacked you. Oh look, all those random AOEs flying around just knocked out out of stealth. Oh look, you were just seen from 20m away and attacked. You are now in combat and can't leave until the other person dies, or it has been like 20 seconds. Good luck doing tons of damage while you are unstealthed though. If an Operative is not unstealthed more than he is stealthed, the enemy team is bad, or the Operative is not contributing to the win (Cherry Picking). How many times have we seen an Operative Ninja Cap in Aldderan? How many times has a lone guard been "stun locked and kill in 5 to 10 seconds) guarding a turret cap? How many bombs have Operatives planted by sneaking behind the melee to blow the doors or extend the bridges? How many Huttballs have they stunned someone in the Flames or nailed from a perch where they are difficult to reach? All of these are skills and abilities that I have seen GOOD operatives use to contribute to the teams win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeiq Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Combat spec is getting buffed slightly because at this point it is borderline useless. Whereas Watchman spec is getting slightly nerfed, by swapping the talents slightly and practically gimping Force fade. I think you are falling in line with the rest of the herd to be honest. Also, why did you reroll? did you honestly have fun spamming grav round and using Knockbacks in Huttball? I personally think you are an incredibly bad gamer who relies heavily on easy classes. the proof is in the pudding love. You are rolling a sent because your class is being corrected to make it slightly more challenging for you, you are theoretically choosing what people say is the next OP class. I assure you, you will be disappointed. Fyi, I'd gladly take a nerf to keep useless players like you away from our class. I would also trade DPS for a few more CC abilities. SO either way sunshine, i couldn't give two Siths if all you Bishes on here is going to bring a nerf our way. PS. I say this in a respectful manner towards you, despite the fact i believe you deserve a lot less. :ph_thank_you: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Let's just say I'm renewing my WoW subscription. Have fun playing Zelda on steroids! Seriously how can anyone play WOW? That game just looks awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjswann Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) I play a Mara. It's all I play. I'm in love with it, and I'm biased. But, I PVP a lot and I've noticed some things. This is just a list of strengths and weaknesses I've notice in PVP. Some of it might be wrong, but think about this. None of the classes are exactly the same in any category... but they aren't supposed to be. Warriors/Knights -- The Good: These guys are pretty tough dudes. Hit hard. Great DPS. Feisty. Crazy group cooldowns. The Bad: Limited CC compared to other classes. No stun lock ability. No 'real' stealth ability. No healing ability Ops/Smugs -- The Good: Burst damage is crazy. Nice CC. Stealth in/out of combat. Ninja caps. Healing ability Range is very nice. The Bad: Fragile. Success can be determined by the situation. Troops/Commandos -- The Good: Can do decent damage and good healing, or good damage and decent healing. I've seen these guys cover for some lacking healing with moderate success if DPS specd. A bit of a survivalist. Can be a pain to kill when skilled 1v1. Do have Jumps/Pulls. Range is very nice. The Bad: No stealth. Not the same dps as other classes. No other escape ability. Sage/Couns: The Good: Damage is generally good. Can heal well enough. Assassins have some strength either in damage or in survival depending on spec. Sprint ability to escape. The Bad: Can get real fragile when cooldowns are all off cycle. No hope if focused. I want the Ops to consider a question... just a potential trade: I'll happily give your class the same DPS mine has and a force jump - but in trade - I want ranged DPS, stealth ability in combat, stun locking, healing... Are you cool with that? Should we all just play the exact same class? There should be some big differences. Some classes SHOULD be weaker against one class, and stronger against another. THAT is balance. Equality is not balance... it's boring. Edited March 21, 2012 by mjswann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SableShadow Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) How many times have we seen an Operative Ninja Cap in Aldderan? How many times has a lone guard been "stun locked and kill in 5 to 10 seconds) guarding a turret cap? How many bombs have Operatives planted by sneaking behind the melee to blow the doors or extend the bridges? How many Huttballs have they stunned someone in the Flames or nailed from a perch where they are difficult to reach? All of these are skills and abilities that I have seen GOOD operatives use to contribute to the teams win. I think he just said that. In current scoring, working the objectives vs working the score board are two different things for an op/scoundrel. Edited March 21, 2012 by SableShadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegathegreat Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 This thread is still going I see........ complaining and crying about buffs and nerfs, just doesnt make sense GO F'ING PRACTICE !!! Good players dont give a fuuuuuuuuu about nerfs and buffs, THEY PLAY THE GAME AND THEY WIN - END OF STORY nerf my scoundrel imma still dominate, nerf my sentinel imma still dominate, nerf the powertech....... CAN U GUESS IT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I think he just said that. In current scoring, working the objectives vs working the score board are two different things for an op/scoundrel. Incorrect- He insinuated that the only way an operative can contribute to his team is by DPS. I merely pointed out that he can contribute far more by accomplishing objectives than DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SableShadow Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Incorrect- Heh ... kaaaaaay. He insinuated that the only way an operative can contribute to his team is by DPS. I merely pointed out that he can contribute far more by accomplishing objectives than DPS. He's responding to your "zomg! 300k vs 190k" post above, right? You work the objectives, you don't get high scores. You farm the strays, you get high scores. Simples. <cue "but I do both!" from someone ...> Edited March 21, 2012 by SableShadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocherel Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) You might want to read a little more carefully. Lets parse this sentence with a little critical thinking. "If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun" Meaning people are getting killed way to fast. Bioware hears complaints and ask the Question? Maybe they are getting killed way to fast because there is a balance issue? Bioware then investigates the issue using We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives After investigation they determine that indeed the QQ were correct the Operatives we overpowered. The result of which could mean for the player base. "but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun" What a reasonable person would conclude is they changed the game not because the QQers were crying but investigated an issue and found that statistically the QQ were correct Operatives are OP based upon the facts! You have mental issues dude, this may be the only explanation regarding your mess of a post and how you see twisted things. Logic isn't your forte either, of course a TEAM of operative is going to quickly kill anyone, just like ANY OTHER TEAM regardless of the class hu, Greg statement is infinitely ignorant. They just found that statistically people are frustrated by the system BW created themselves thus are nerfing the class people play the less in order to maintain as much subscription as possible. If there were much more people playing operative you'd see the exact opposite... Oh well by the time I post this I guess you'd be called out on your bools**t anyway Edited March 21, 2012 by Bocherel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjolniir Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 This thread is still going I see........ complaining and crying about buffs and nerfs, just doesnt make sense GO F'ING PRACTICE !!! Good players dont give a fuuuuuuuuu about nerfs and buffs, THEY PLAY THE GAME AND THEY WIN - END OF STORY nerf my scoundrel imma still dominate, nerf my sentinel imma still dominate, nerf the powertech....... CAN U GUESS IT? This!! Well Said. those of us who test ourselves daily and strive to be the best or real close don't really care about these tweaks and "housekeeping" changes. Spend the time perfecting your strategies, muscle-memorizing your key-binds, and thinking up how best you can tweak your build and playstyle YOURSELF! This constant complaining about balance gets you nowhere. If you really think there is an OP class -- roll one. lol I am already adjusting my build and thinking up strategies on how to play my many classes better. Frigging lazy people rub me raw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiroikage Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 This!! Well Said. those of us who test ourselves daily and strive to be the best or real close don't really care about these tweaks and "housekeeping" changes. Spend the time perfecting your strategies, muscle-memorizing your key-binds, and thinking up how best you can tweak your build and playstyle YOURSELF! This constant complaining about balance gets you nowhere. If you really think there is an OP class -- roll one. lol I am already adjusting my build and thinking up strategies on how to play my many classes better. Frigging lazy people rub me raw! Go to any server you whish right now and tell me how many OPS you see at the fleet. I can guarantee there wont be more than 10 and thats me being an optimist. Do you and you quote buddy really think you know more than anyone else? The numbers pretty much speak for themselves and that comes from an operative playing on Tomb of Freedon Nadd EU which is the most heavily populated server on Imperials EU zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruxe Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Go to any server you whish right now and tell me how many OPS you see at the fleet. I can guarantee there wont be more than 10 and thats me being an optimist. Do you and you quote buddy really think you know more than anyone else? The numbers pretty much speak for themselves and that comes from an operative playing on Tomb of Freedon Nadd EU which is the most heavily populated server on Imperials EU zone. Population doesn't necessarily equate to the strength of the class, especially in a game like SWTOR where story is the focus. I imagine far more people play a force wielder because it's the story they're interested in rather than a smuggler/agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocherel Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Population doesn't necessarily equate to the strength of the class, especially in a game like SWTOR where story is the focus. I imagine far more people play a force wielder because it's the story they're interested in rather than a smuggler/agent. Also because half of the proposed classes are force wielder perhaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcadeboredom Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 How many times have we seen an Operative Ninja Cap in Aldderan? How many times has a lone guard been "stun locked and kill in 5 to 10 seconds) guarding a turret cap? How many bombs have Operatives planted by sneaking behind the melee to blow the doors or extend the bridges? How many Huttballs have they stunned someone in the Flames or nailed from a perch where they are difficult to reach? All of these are skills and abilities that I have seen GOOD operatives use to contribute to the teams win. how many of these can be performed by an assassin/shadow too whilst also having better survivability when not in stealth? and having the ability to run the ball in huttball on top of all this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) How many times have we seen an Operative Ninja Cap in Aldderan? How many times has a lone guard been "stun locked and kill in 5 to 10 seconds) guarding a turret cap? How many bombs have Operatives planted by sneaking behind the melee to blow the doors or extend the bridges? How many Huttballs have they stunned someone in the Flames or nailed from a perch where they are difficult to reach? All of these are skills and abilities that I have seen GOOD operatives use to contribute to the teams win. You see those every time you see terribad team that lets it happen. It like and ode to terribads: "oh noes, operative ninjad the node because we suck and left it unguarded/are afking and dont see them snatch it under our noses" "NERF THE OPEARTIVE!" But guess what bro - you will still lose because you suck. Edited March 21, 2012 by GrandMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alienvolt Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Everyone hates when a class is nurfed even if the class is obviously OP. Operatives/Scoundrals have great CC/stun abilites and high burst damage allowing them to kill people quickly in a PvP environment. I will agree that they could have been redesigned to produce less burst dmg and more sustained dmg, but they were not. No class should have the ability to kill someone as fast as people can on an operative/scoundral and also have the ability to stealth and heal. If you know how to play one, you can easily destroy people one on one. If you are having trouble killing people and staying alive while playing this class then you need to look at your spec or reroll because it is not broken in that sense at all. It is broken as a sustained dps for a PVE enviornment but even then without meters to show sustained dps over the length of a fight, this is only speculative because there is not way to compare. And even with a meter there is always a rotaion issue. As for this comment "tons of snare breakers etc" for sent/marauders, please they have one like everyone else unless you spec into a snare breaker at the loss of dps which until 1.2 was only available at the top of one tree. Did I mention they have no real form of CC other than one area CC. Every class has down falls and benefits but no one class should dominate all others. You are not speaking about balance, but wanting it all. My advise, go watch some PvP videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howbadisbad Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Everyone hates when a class is nurfed even if the class is obviously OP. Operatives/Scoundrals have great CC/stun abilites and high burst damage allowing them to kill people quickly in a PvP environment. I will agree that they could have been redesigned to produce less burst dmg and more sustained dmg, but they were not. No class should have the ability to kill someone as fast as people can on an operative/scoundral and also have the ability to stealth and heal. If you know how to play one, you can easily destroy people one on one. If you are having trouble killing people and staying alive while playing this class then you need to look at your spec or reroll because it is not broken in that sense at all. It is broken as a sustained dps for a PVE enviornment but even then without meters to show sustained dps over the length of a fight, this is only speculative because there is not way to compare. And even with a meter there is always a rotaion issue. As for this comment "tons of snare breakers etc" for sent/marauders, please they have one like everyone else unless you spec into a snare breaker at the loss of dps which until 1.2 was only available at the top of one tree. Did I mention they have no real form of CC other than one area CC. Every class has down falls and benefits but no one class should dominate all others. You are not speaking about balance, but wanting it all. My advise, go watch some PvP videos. I lol'd. This game is not balanced around 1v1. Operative's problem is their lack of utility, mobility, survivability, and sustained damage. They currently offer no benefit compared to another class which fills the same role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) You have mental issues dude, this may be the only explanation regarding your mess of a post and how you see twisted things. Logic isn't your forte either, of course a TEAM of operative is going to quickly kill anyone, just like ANY OTHER TEAM regardless of the class hu, Greg statement is infinitely ignorant. They just found that statistically people are frustrated by the system BW created themselves thus are nerfing the class people play the less in order to maintain as much subscription as possible. If there were much more people playing operative you'd see the exact opposite... Oh well by the time I post this I guess you'd be called out on your bools**t anyway Obviously English is not your native language so I can see why you have a problem following his simple and quite forward statement. Regarding a mess of a post, while I like many may occasionally drop a letter or use weak sentence structure in the heat of the moment, your butchery of the written word makes your post difficult to read but once deciphered ridiculous on the face. Regarding mental issues I assure you I have some but less than most and certainly fewer than you. regarding My earlier post Originally Posted by DosPeros You might want to read a little more carefully. Lets parse this sentence with a little critical thinking. "If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun" Meaning people are getting killed way to fast. Bioware hears complaints and ask the Question? Maybe they are getting killed way to fast because there is a balance issue? Bioware then investigates the issue using We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives After investigation they determine that indeed the QQ were correct the Operatives we overpowered. The result of which could mean for the player base. "but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun" What a reasonable person would conclude is they changed the game not because the QQers were crying but investigated an issue and found that statistically the QQ were correct Operatives are OP based upon the facts! Edited March 21, 2012 by DosPeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocherel Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Obviously English is not your native language so I can see why you have a problem following his simple and quite forward statement. Regarding a mess of a post, while I like many may occasionally drop a letter or use weak sentence structure in the heat of the moment, your butchery of the written word makes your post difficult to read but once deciphered ridiculous on the face. Regarding mental issues I assure you I have some but less than most and certainly fewer than you. regarding My earlier post I have no issue following your absurdity, I am sorry I pointed out the obvious and put some logic and common sense into your head. It seems to hurt you. Edited March 21, 2012 by Bocherel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achilleous Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Look this is pretty simple. Smugglers/ops seem to be OP because we have the ability to only pick fights against those we know we can win against. period. We go after you when you are undergeared, half health or we just watched you blow your cooldowns in another fight. Is our burst damage insane in any of the scenarios above.. yup. do we have ANYTHING else besides that. Nope. Our stealth rarely works in a group setting because most people can instantly pop us out once we vanish. We have no speed, no sustained damage, no decent ranged damage, no gap closer. We have 5 second of burst, a vanish and after that we are left with everything on cooldown and no way to do any damage. I'll concede that even though we are dead in a second out of stealth, if we do catch you in that perfect scenario you are dead just about every time. BUT.. if you are going to take some of that burst away you HAVE TO GIVE US SOMETHING ELSE. You need to increase our sustained damage and give us some sort of gap closer. This is the 3rd major nerf for us and we are already worthless in pve, this new nerf will make us useless in the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I have no issue following your absurdity, I am sorry I pointed out the obvious and put some logic and common sense into your head. It seems to hurt you. What is absurd that Bioware states- “We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives” And you interpret- “They just found that statistically people are frustrated by the system BW created themselves thus are nerfing the class people play the less in order to maintain as much subscription as possible.” I think even someone with a third grade public school education in the United States would conclude you are ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocherel Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 What is absurd that Bioware states- “We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives” And you interpret- “They just found that statistically people are frustrated by the system BW created themselves thus are nerfing the class people play the less in order to maintain as much subscription as possible.” I think even someone with a third grade public school education in the United States would conclude you are ignorant. The funny thing is, there is an entire thread dedicated to this quote and you're the only one trying to twist the quote in your own way. But I guess you're the only one over here who speak English "properly". What a clown... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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