1.2 - Combat Medic - Major Nerfs

[RuQu]

Aritok, i would like to note that technically comparing the two regen, over the same amount of time, the regen the cost of a heal on a trooper and the time taken to regen 60 force energy, we are actually 7.5% more efficient.

 

 

The primary flaw with any comparison of Force to Energy/Ammo/Heat is that they are fundamentally different mechanics.

 

Force is a traditional mana-pool. It has some regen, but it isn't meant to be infinite. It only has to meet this criteria:

 

FPS (Force used Per Second) = (Rotation Cycle Cost - Force Regen Per Cycle) / (Cycle Time)

 

FPS*(Fight Duration) < 600.

 

If FPM is > 0, there is a problem as they will never run out of Force ever.

 

Ideally FPS should fall in the range 0 > FPS > -2, which would allow for a 5 minute fight (300s) with them at 0 Force at the end.

 

The other resources, on the other hand, are meant to be infinite. The trade-off is that they are limited in the short term. They can only cast a few abilities before the regen becomes punishing or they are completely out of resources. They have no time limit though, except the enrage timer. In fact, the heavy reliance on enrage timers is almost certainly meant to keep fights under the time window for Force users and to impose one on non-Force users.

[Gigglefluff]

Honestly Requ, i would challenge you to heal a boss fight longer than 2 mins without that talent working as is. Each heal costs 60/600 force, thats 10%, with such low regen, you really would be surprised at how quickly a sorc rinses through force without the 8% return.

[RuQu]

Honestly Requ, i would challenge you to heal a boss fight longer than 2 mins without that talent working as is. Each heal costs 60/600 force, thats 10%, with such low regen, you really would be surprised at how quickly a sorc rinses through force without the 8% return.

 

I presume you are referring to the Resplendence / Noble Sacrifice talent?

 

Please don't assume I am anti-Sage/Sorc. If anything I am "pro-healer." If Sages/Sorcs are in appropriate gear (ie Tionese or lower for Normal/Story, Columi for HM, Rakata for NMM) and using AoE at appropriate times (ie not simply going for 100% uptime) and are running out of Force, then their Force costs/regen need to be reviewed. Likewise if the non-Force healers are needing to use their recharge cooldown more often than every 2 minutes.

 

I was simply pointing out why you can't directly compare the two. Fights can be tuned for Force healers to go OOF at t=(enrage timer + 15s), but also need to be tuned such that non-Force healers go OOR no more often than once every 120s. That's a difficult dual-balancing. Currently it looks like they failed on the first part by making Force time to OOF too long. On PTS it looks like they managed to shorten that (perhaps too far), but also failed spectacularly at tuning to the non-Force restrictions.

[Dzhokhar]

Honestly Requ, i would challenge you to heal a boss fight longer than 2 mins without that talent working as is. Each heal costs 60/600 force, thats 10%, with such low regen, you really would be surprised at how quickly a sorc rinses through force without the 8% return.

 

A Sorc regens one heal (Dark Infusion) worth of force every 6.875 seconds.

 

A Merc vents one heal (Rapid Scan) worth of heat every 5 seconds when he's below 40 heat, one heal every 8.33 seconds with 40-79 heat, and 1 heal every 12.5 seconds with 80 or more heat.

 

Two casts in (3 if you factor in regen while casting), the Merc's regen rate is already slower than the Sorc's.

 

Additionally, a Sorc's total pool is enough for 9-11 heals (depending on spec and ignoring regen, up to 15 with regen), while the Merc's pool is only enough for 4 heals (something like 5-6 with regen).

 

 

There is no way that Sorcs are nearly as resource limited as Mercs.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Dzhokhar

[Aritok]

Honestly Requ, i would challenge you to heal a boss fight longer than 2 mins without that talent working as is. Each heal costs 60/600 force, thats 10%, with such low regen, you really would be surprised at how quickly a sorc rinses through force without the 8% return.

 

If your heals cost 60 force, you are doing something wrong .

Devi cost 51. Only Salv cost alot with 91. But honestly, this one is worth it.

 

So i made something for you:

 

_________________

 

As i said, i have a sage and a commando healer. And i did some tests (suprisse). Got both around 526 heal bonus (full columi) and compared the heals. Around 35% crit, and 70% surge. Together with 0% alacrity (would not help at all on these calculations).

 

There is no outside regen. So for the sage only the normal force regen of 8/sec and the commando the ammo regen of 0,6/sec (best case).

 

And the commando has all the 3% healing bonus include from the supercharged cell.

 

 

So sorted from top (best HPS) to bot (worst HPS).

HPS means in this case: Healing done / time untill the force/ammo is back. Or in case of Hammer shot and BI the cooldown. Because these two are cost free.

The number in the () means the targets it hit. 1.1.5 means current, 1.2 mean with the patch.

 

So for example: MP healing for 3125 with a cost of 3 Ammo and a regen of 0,6/sec. Need 5 sec to get the ammo back. Makes 3125/5=625 HPS.

 

 

Salv + Reju (8) - 3119

Salv (8) - 3007

BI - 1633

Salv + Reju (4) - 1627

Salv (4) - 1503

KB (4) - 1105

KB (3) - 829

AMP + MP 1.1.5 - 803

Devi + Reju 1.2 - 792

Healing Trace - 790

Healing Trace + Rejuv - 705

AMP - 668

AMP + MP 1.2 - 642

MP - 625

Devi - 588

Bene + Reju 1.1.5 - 545

Devi + Reju 1.1.5 - 536

Hammer Shot - 467

Rejuvation - 442

Bene + Reju 1.2 - 423

Bene - 335

 

 

Really interessting in this:

- AMP/MP combo is losing 20% with 1.2 (from 803 to 642 HPS)

- Devi + Reju combo is gaining 47% with 1.2 (from 536 to 792 HPS)

 

 

These numbers dont look this bad. But if you add the noble sac to this, the sage is getting crazy and skyrocking with the HPS. The only two ways a commando can get the ammo back is with supercharge (giving up the 3% healing bonus and need 30 charges) and with recharge cells (2 min cooldown). Or get one heal for free with reserve powercell.

 

So it is not even compareable in the current 1.1.5 because a Healing Trace+Rejuv with noble give a HPS of over 1270 HPS, without any force cost at all.

And the even the force 52 for a lousy spend of 2000 HP with 1.2 is still making it the best regen of all, and still alot more as the commando can even dream of.

 

 

As you can see, even without the noble sac the sage is on same level as the commando in healing. with the nob sac even far over him.

 

 

edit: corrected the hammershot. Forgot the crit and surge on it.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Aritok

[ImariKurumi]

Well that ought to shut up those ignorant selfish sage healers. By far Commando Medics are getting the shortest end of the stick and other classes are still trying to prove they get nerfed harder than us.

 

These calculations even excludes the fact that Commando Medics(NOT gunnery) dont have much in terms of escape/CC/survivability unless they go hybrid to get tenacious defense which means sacrificing a lot of top tier heal talents. Put in the fact that Heavy armor dont mean nuts with all those elemental/tech skills flying around.

[GySgtKerr]

Well, I'd like officially thank Bioware for their "balancing". For the past few raids I've been chosen as the sit out guy, or back up. Tonight I finally got an answer as to why that is. My guild doesn't want me in there as a CM, because they don't see the reason to gear up a CM with Rakata gear with 1.2 otw.

So, once again, thank you Bioware, you're awesome.

 

Glow Sticks, here I come.

[Tennor]

OK how many people have actually played this on the test server?

I mean they say they are changing a lot of the math behind the scenes? Is the math being tweaked enough so there each heal dose more healing to balance out the higher ammo cost?

I would be ok if this meant I could heal less often but the heal was more points of health.

[Tennor]

OK how many people have actually played this on the test server?

I mean they say they are changing a lot of the math behind the scenes? Is the math being tweaked enough so there each heal dose more healing to balance out the higher ammo cost?

I would be ok if this meant I could heal less often but the heal was more points of health.

 

You need a new guild.

[Kushtaka]

Guys, your heals will be juuuuuust fine, ask the Marauders and Assassins, they all agree. This incoming patch will "put us in line with all the other classes" in healing and damage. We cannot have more than one class pressing one button to do dps (Sorc/Sage will fill that slot henceforth) so Gunnery has been chopped up a tad. And we cannot have a lousy Commando outhealing a Sage/Sorc, I mean THEY USE LIGHTSABERS FFS, OBI WAN WOULD NOT DIG THAT. Anyways, just do what a lot of people who refuse to level another class/character are doing: quit this game. Plus, you see how dumb Troopers/BH were in the movies, they have to be bad here as well. Yeah, Obi Wan was like 100 and he could barely walk and he talked them out of picking up the only gold and blue robots on the planet and Luke Skywalker used a string on his belt and outsmarted them in the DeafStarr, Jedis 2 Dumb Troopers 0. Boba Fett fell into the pit like a rookie and Han smoked that clown Greedo without even moving. Bioware just keepin' it real IMO.

[Aritok]

OK how many people have actually played this on the test server?

I mean they say they are changing a lot of the math behind the scenes? Is the math being tweaked enough so there each heal dose more healing to balance out the higher ammo cost?

I would be ok if this meant I could heal less often but the heal was more points of health.

 

I would love to present some combat logs from the live server, ......

 

I can only take my characters on the normal server, and add the changes they announce on the patch at the PTS. If this is all the change, i cant say. If there are some other hidden secret changes, i cant say.

 

My chars didnt got copied to the PTS, so i cant test it there. And i am not going to level two level 50 again, just for this. So i can only take the changes as far as they inform us, and calclulate with this changes.

 

So these numbers i use for HPS are the only reliable source i can count on. And to wait untill the 1.2 hit the live server, would mean it is to late to say there is something wrong, we all know this.

Once 1.2 goes live, nothing will be changed anymore for the next half year or so (see Mortar Valley).

 

And becauce they communicate so well with the players, we can only cry out, and say what "seems" to be wrong.

 

 

Guys, your heals will be juuuuuust fine, ask the Marauders and Assassins, they all agree...

To much text for the sarcasm .

[Aritok]

You need a new guild.

 

Looks fun when you quote yourself .

 

I am as well mostly healing with the sage now. Just because the sage is so much easier and the better healer (no one can ever deny this for 1.1.5). And it will not change with 1.2. It "might" become even worse.

 

I have done D7 last week with the combat medic to get some gear for new members (CM in full Rakata, Tank and one DPS in low gear). I should have been total overgeared for it. And guess what, i was struggling with the ammo on a few bosses. This cant be better with 1.2. And i have no idea if i even could heal this flashpoint anymore after the next patch.

The ammo regen and ammo consume is way out of the line. There is no way anymore in 1.2 that anyone can burst heal. That count for sages and for CM, both lost their burst healing.

The CM lost the burst from AMP+MP during supercharge. And the sage lost the 1 sec gain for the big heal as well as the double heal from the bug.

 

But at least the sage can chain heal for a really long time, compared to the commando. Even with chain casting Devi, the sage can easy keep it up for 50-60 sec. The commando will be out of ammo after 5 MP. And than the ammo is gone, and the regen is ruined.

 

Honestly, as more i compare these classes after the patch, as more i come to the conclusion, that the commando will be only better in one point after 1.2. And that the heavy armor. Thats all.

Patch heal, burst heal, substain heal, AE heal, preventive heal. In all is the sage superior over the commando. And this would be fine. If the commando would have something else where he could shine. But all, where he was good in, is getting killed with 1.2. And this is what upset me.

[ImariKurumi]

Guys, your heals will be juuuuuust fine, ask the Marauders and Assassins, they all agree. This incoming patch will "put us in line with all the other classes" in healing and damage. We cannot have more than one class pressing one button to do dps (Sorc/Sage will fill that slot henceforth) so Gunnery has been chopped up a tad. And we cannot have a lousy Commando outhealing a Sage/Sorc, I mean THEY USE LIGHTSABERS FFS, OBI WAN WOULD NOT DIG THAT. Anyways, just do what a lot of people who refuse to level another class/character are doing: quit this game. Plus, you see how dumb Troopers/BH were in the movies, they have to be bad here as well. Yeah, Obi Wan was like 100 and he could barely walk and he talked them out of picking up the only gold and blue robots on the planet and Luke Skywalker used a string on his belt and outsmarted them in the DeafStarr, Jedis 2 Dumb Troopers 0. Boba Fett fell into the pit like a rookie and Han smoked that clown Greedo without even moving. Bioware just keepin' it real IMO.

 

ROFLMAO. Hilarious stuff, almost fell of my chair.

[Gigglefluff]

Haha, I was assuming the you didn't have the 9% reduced force cost talent, anyway. I do not think its right to have these nerfs don't get me wrong, we currently have the short end of the stick compared to sorcs. Oddly these changes are as i said before are to nerf efficiency which at the moment (other than sorcs) has none. The reason force and ammo doesn't work like mana was because in raids there was mp5 (instead of regen, which i prefer personally) But also the whole time for a raid fight, e.g. hc lich king 25 man, was a 10 min fight, the only reason you could last that long was because of replenishment given by shadow priest in tbc, and i think mages as well in wrath onwards.

 

These nerfs are unjustified, ultimately at the moment even with current regen a marauder beating on your face for several minutes you pool goes down, however marauders get a buff because as many say before, the game designers GF is a marauder

 

Both classes, both trooper and sage being nerfed on healing doesn't make sense, and with these nerfs it is likely that any pvp group would be better off having an additional dps than another healer shamefully, healer will become pretty obsolete in pvp. But with the original trauma debuff it was kinda to scare off healers as is and in that case the main issue with healers in pvp is due to the retarded pvp stat, not healing being too good.

 

BUT the main cause of all these nerfs is to punish pve, but the entire failure of this game and reason of healing nerfs is that operations are too damned easy, as apposed to healing being op. Hopefully with a reason to do HM ops then the designers will realise they are virtually impossible with crap healing, so until then, we will all have a fun time wiping and changing to dps

[Gezzer]

Well, I'd like officially thank Bioware for their "balancing". For the past few raids I've been chosen as the sit out guy, or back up. Tonight I finally got an answer as to why that is. My guild doesn't want me in there as a CM, because they don't see the reason to gear up a CM with Rakata gear with 1.2 otw.

So, once again, thank you Bioware, you're awesome.

 

Glow Sticks, here I come.

 

This has been my main reason for QQing as some of the more laid back posters are calling our complaints. Be it 4, 8, or 16 man a parties make up is important and is a major factor in how hard/easy a boss fight is. With this in mind there is always classes that are the preferred class for any position, tank, heal, DPS, CC, support, what have you. There are also some classes that can fill a position in a pinch. And there are some that will struggle so much that no one wants them. These nerfs will do that to CM. We will never get a chance at bat.

It's easy to say things like "oh relax, it won't be that bad." and "If it's a bad nerf BW will fix it." as well "you'll just need to learn how to play your class is all".

One big problem. How can we do any of those things if no one lets us play? Even if it's not that bad, everyone will think it anyway. I mean come on CM are not the most sought after heal class even now, so what happens after 1.2? And if they do change their minds and fix it how long will it take? Just how far behind in the PvE end game progression will CMs fall before that happens. There is a very real chance that CMs will be on the outside looking in because no one wants them in their party. And once that happens a class becomes useless because it doesn't get the play time to get the gear to keep up with the big boys.

So please explain to me how we CMs can over come that very real possibility that the 1.2 patch will introduce.

We can't and anyone with any common sense knows it.

[RuQu]

 

So i made something for you:

 

_________________

 

*Sage/CM Comparison

 

Nice post.

 

Think you can string together some standard rotations out of that to compare the overall efficiency? It wouldn't be definitive, but since you heal as both, try and imagine someone needed ~30s of healing, what would you cast on them, and then what is the sum of the numbers you posted for that rotation?

[RuQu]

OK how many people have actually played this on the test server?

I mean they say they are changing a lot of the math behind the scenes? Is the math being tweaked enough so there each heal dose more healing to balance out the higher ammo cost?

I would be ok if this meant I could heal less often but the heal was more points of health.

 

You should read this thread. It has the results of tests for those hidden changes.

[Phatss]

The ammo changes are rediculous.

 

Diablo 3 is out in 5 weeks so you have that much time to fix this or I'll be so stuck into D3 I won't even know about patches or changes to this game that should of been fixed ages ago!

 

Even the fact that those multiple ammo nerfs are even being considered just makes me lose faith

[Smoothjedi]

 

BUT the main cause of all these nerfs is to punish pve, but the entire failure of this game and reason of healing nerfs is that operations are too damned easy, as apposed to healing being op. Hopefully with a reason to do HM ops then the designers will realise they are virtually impossible with crap healing, so until then, we will all have a fun time wiping and changing to dps

 

What I really don't understand about attempting this balancing act by nerfing healing is who they really trying to please? The people who thought the content is ez mode I assume have been farming nightmare mode for lewtz, whether it is for themselves or guildmates. I think I'm safe to assume that this would be the most vocal party complaining for harder encounters. I'm sure most of them are bored with the content, and have started rolling alts, or just shelving the game until new content comes out.

 

So what's to gain by making content that these same people have already been grinding over and over again more difficult? Even for more casual players who have been playing normal mode and struggling though hardmode, you're basically making it more difficult to complete content, that has already been completed, through the worst possible way. How can anyone think this is more fun or exciting?

 

Why not just call the content in place a wash? It's still reasonably hard for a significant amount of casual gamers that haven't even unlocked NMM yet. Make the new content more difficult for current numbers. We've got a new tier of gear coming out that makes the old sets obsolete anyway. Again, making content that people have already played into the ground more difficult through nerfs isn't solving anything. It just exacerbates the problem by making everyone disinterested in the new content as well.

[Gigglefluff]

Smothjedi, i have to second that, they should come out with new content, this game has been out for nearly ooooh, what 5 month or so now? And yet this is the first release of new content and actually they are only giving a new flash point... The rest was also stuff that people have ground since the beginning to get some enjoyment out of the easy ops normal modes. Changes this game changing are just a bad idea from the point of view that bioware evidently just haven't made sure they are feasible ><

[Aritok]

First of all:

- All the healing numbers are the same as on page 28. So i dont want to hear anything about: your healing is crap, i can heal more, or something like this. I had to scale down the commando to match the bonus healing of the sage, who has worse gear.

- All healing numbers from the commando have a flat +3% healing from a full charged supercharge cell (30 charges). To start with charging up and changing healing during this time, will get messy. So its easier to count with a flat 3% bonus on all. The commando can adjust the healing a bit with a supercharge for a 10% instead of the 3% (at least untill 1.2 is out). So with 1.2 it would not even be worth to fire the supercharge cell anymore, because you just lose the healing bonus (3% always against 5% for 13 sec).

- As asked from Ruqu this is for single target healing. The AE heals, if used, are only used for healing one. As soon as we enter group heal, of two or more, the sage HPS is skyrocking.

 

 

 

 

Commando:

Even though it’s hard to give a "rotation", since its total different on fights.

 

Cast order:

AMP; MP+; HS; MP; BI; HS; AMP; MP+; HS; MP; SCC; AMP; AMP; MP+; HS; AMP; MP+; HS; ; AMP; BI; MP+

MP+ means a MP for cost of 1 under AMP buff. There is one AMP istead of KB used. Normaly i always fire a KB after the SCC. If i use the AE on this commando, i have to use the AE as well on the sage. And this would total ruin the numbers. Salv, even with only two targets, is overkilling the HPS of the sage. But using a KB with one target ruins the numbers for this test.

 

Spells cast 1.1.5:

AMP: 5

MP+: 5

MP: 2

BI: 2

KB: 0

HS: 6

SCC: 1

Instead of one HS there could always be a trauma probe.

Time: ~30 sec; Start ammo: 11; end ammo: 10,492

 

With 1.2 the spell casts would be this:

AMP: 4

MP+: 4

MP: 1

BI: 2

KB: 0

HS: 9

SCC: 1

Time: ~30 sec; Start ammo: 11; end ammo: 10,764

So basically you have to drop one AMP, one MP+ and one MP for 3 more HS to catch up the ammo loss. There is not much you can do about it. Less ammo is less ammo. And you have to use HS instead.

 

 

 

Sage:

For a sage it’s a lot more complicate, because he is way more flexible on the given circumstances. Like: patch heal over time or AE heal or fast patch heal with the 1.1.5 bug (saying this, because its changing a lot if you can heal 12k in less than 4 sec, intended or not).

Currently i dont need any reason for Benevolence, or did i miss something on the spell? I noticed i never really cast it, just because the cost is way to high of it.

 

The Force Armor is not in this calculations, because i have no real number of the absorb. I hear and see something around 3-5k. And even with 3k, it make the force armor a better spell as the best non AE heal from both classes (3k heal for 35 force as an instant with short to no cooldown).

 

 

Cast order:

Reju; Devi; Devi; Healing Trace; Noble Sac; Noble Sac; Reju; Devi; Devi; Healing Trace; Noble Sac; Reju; Devi; Devi; Healing Trace; Noble Sac; Noble Sac

 

Sage, 1.1.5 spell cast:

Reju: 3

Devi: 5

Healing Trace: 3

Noble Sac: 5 (3 for free)

Salv: 1 (only count with healing 1 target)

Time: 28 sec; Start Force: 650; end force: 628

The Salvation is used to heal yourself from the Noble Sac heal spend. But the selfhealing is not count into the HPS at all.

 

Spells cast with 1.2:

I have no real numbers about the heals, and can only think about a rotation that might work.

Basicly it would end in a Reju, Devi, Healing trace order all over, with a few Noble Sac inside.

Reju: 4

Devi: 3

Healing Trace: 4

Salvation: 1 (only count with healing 1 target)

Noble Sac: 2

Time: 28 sec; Start Force: 650; end force: 570

 

 

 

Summary:

The HPS numbers would be:

Commando 1.1.5: 1366

Commando 1.2: 1171

Sage 1.1.5: 1353

SAge 1.2: 1260 (1200 for the lower end force in the test)

 

But do not forget on these numbers:

For the commando it dont matter if he use the AE or the MP. The HPS is the about the same. It's a bit lower in 1.1.5 and a bit higher in 1.2.

But the salvation for the sage is killing the whole numbers.

Sage 1.1.5 with salvataion:

for one target: 1353 HPS

two targets: 1505 HPS

four targets: 1808 HPS

eight targets: 2414 HPS

And this is only one Salvation in the 30 sec.

 

 

 

 

So from what i see, sage and commando are closer together than i thought (confession), beside this mighty AE that is ruining the whole numbers.

Additional its important, the commando cant get much higher HPS, because the ammo is at the limit with this. Once he heal more, and the ammo goes down, he is screwed.

The sage has still his full force to heal more if need and to burn out his force.

Even with chain casting only Devi, a Sage can keep this up for nearly one min for constant 1650 HPS.

A trooper trying this will be out of ammo after 9 sec with 1775 HPS, but not getting back any ammo for some time. Even with recharge cells he can only keep it up for 14 sec.

And with 1.2 Sages might even cast force shield more than now. Just because it will become even better if all other heals getting worse.

 

 

 

 

Little note: When i see the numbers from Trauma probe, i have to agree that this spell was way overpowered for a cost of 0. Basicly its a 5k heal over time for free. And this way even more powerfull than a salv from the sage on 8 targets (3333 HPS versus 3119 HPS for salvation from the table is posted on page 28).

Even with a cost of 2, the trauma probe is still giving 1500 HPS, and this is more than the best heal the commandos have. So to all who dont use this, or say its only a toy, this one is the most effective heal you have right now. And even with 1.2. But never thought that it is this extrem powerfull, just because it split the healing over a long time.

[SpaniardInfinity]

What I really don't understand about attempting this balancing act by nerfing healing is who they really trying to please? The people who thought the content is ez mode I assume have been farming nightmare mode for lewtz, whether it is for themselves or guildmates. I think I'm safe to assume that this would be the most vocal party complaining for harder encounters. I'm sure most of them are bored with the content, and have started rolling alts, or just shelving the game until new content comes out.

 

At the Guild Summit, what was the number they stated for the percentage of the Level 50 population that had actually run a raid? 38% or so I believe? If that is the case, that means that for every two Lv50 players who've run a raid, (about) three others have not. In my humble opinion, Bioware should be focused on figuring out why 62% of their population has never run a raid. Not enough time? Not in a guild that runs them? Not interested? Too difficult? Too easy?

 

I can only speculate how many of those 38% believe the content is too easy. And in my opinion, for the people commenting that content is easy, I'd argue that it's because you outgear a lot of the content. I'm nearly full Rakata gear, I'm just missing my chestpiece and those ever illusive black pants on my Combat Medic. If I jump into a HM Flashpoint, I can make those fresh 50s look immortal. I can pull miracles out of thin air and prevent wipes because I outgear an instance intended for Tionese/Columi. Same thing happens in entry-level Ops like Eternity Vault. I've literally ate dinner during a pick-up Op because it was easy.

 

But then fastforward and look at me in Nightmare modes, something my guild just started attempting this week. Unlike story-modes where I can joke about healing a flashpoint at the same time, Nightmare modes are aptly named for me. I need to be at the top of my game, and even that wasn't enough. I ran dry on ammo everytime we tried, and several times in the same encounter. I can't do the miracles I can do in those other instances because the content is tuned to my gear level. I can say I had the exact same experience when I first stepped into a normal Op (Centurion/Lv50 blues) and into a Hardmode Op (full Columi).

 

Could you make the point that by easy Bioware meant learning an encounter, practicing it, and achieving it went faster than intended. That would make sense to me. But I think the next tier of Ops will be addressing that.

 

Little note: When i see the numbers from Trauma probe, i have to agree that this spell was way overpowered for a cost of 0. Basicly its a 5k heal over time for free. And this way even more powerfull than a salv from the sage on 8 targets (3333 HPS versus 3119 HPS for salvation from the table is posted on page 28).

Even with a cost of 2, the trauma probe is still giving 1500 HPS, and this is more than the best heal the commandos have. So to all who dont use this, or say its only a toy, this one is the most effective heal you have right now. And even with 1.2. But never thought that it is this extrem powerfull, just because it split the healing over a long time.

 

I won't get into the HPS, but I did want to debate this. In my 3/5 stock Rakata set (plus belt, bracers, etc), my Trauma Probe heals 340 to 350 per charge. That occurs in damage taken, and can only happen once every 3 seconds (there is a bug causing it to trigger twice, however). Since that's 10 charges, that equates to 3,400 to 3,500 healing over time (much less than the 5,000) if you allow all 10 charges to run their course. Refreshing early drastically cuts it.

 

Unless there is something severely wrong with my stat itemization, I don't see a Trauma Probe healing for 5k over its lifespan based on its non-crit numbers. With crits, possibly, but that's not in our control.

Edited April 5, 2012 by SpaniardInfinity

[RuQu]

Aritok, thanks for writing that out. It's obviously not definitive, because, as you said, the rotations change on every fight, but a "typical" rotation by someone who is experienced with both classes can give a nice general picture.

 

I've got all the stats on the Absorb shield in the math thread. I think a search for "Healer Math" turns it up pretty quick. If you want.

 

*Numbers*

So from what i see, sage and commando are closer together than i thought (confession), beside this mighty AE that is ruining the whole numbers.

Additional its important, the commando cant get much higher HPS, because the ammo is at the limit with this. Once he heal more, and the ammo goes down, he is screwed.

The sage has still his full force to heal more if need and to burn out his force.

Even with chain casting only Devi, a Sage can keep this up for nearly one min for constant 1650 HPS.

A trooper trying this will be out of ammo after 9 sec with 1775 HPS, but not getting back any ammo for some time. Even with recharge cells he can only keep it up for 14 sec.

And with 1.2 Sages might even cast force shield more than now. Just because it will become even better if all other heals getting worse.

 

The two really are quite close single-target, which I'd suspected but never knew enough about Sage rotations to sim. My sims for Scoundrels and Commandos single-target max sustained HPS are also very, very close. Which suggests, single-target, that Sages and Scoundrels were also close, and these single-target nerfs to Sage/Commando will disrupt that balance.

 

What was really needed is what the Community has been saying all along: balance AoE.

 

Little note: When i see the numbers from Trauma probe, i have to agree that this spell was way overpowered for a cost of 0. Basicly its a 5k heal over time for free. And this way even more powerfull than a salv from the sage on 8 targets (3333 HPS versus 3119 HPS for salvation from the table is posted on page 28).

Even with a cost of 2, the trauma probe is still giving 1500 HPS, and this is more than the best heal the commandos have. So to all who dont use this, or say its only a toy, this one is the most effective heal you have right now. And even with 1.2. But never thought that it is this extrem powerfull, just because it split the healing over a long time.

 

 

You are fast running into the same wall I ran into around release when I first started the Combat Medic Guide work. I wanted to figure out how to compare abilities, but it got really hard when you have some that are free.

 

There are a number of metrics you can look at:

• Healing Per Second (HPS)
  
• Healing Per Cast Time (HPCT)
  
• Healing Per Resource Cost (HPA/HPF/HPE/HPH or just HPR)
  
• Healing Per Cooldown (HPCD, uses GCD or cast time for non-CD abilities)
  
• Healing Per Resource Recover Time (HPRRT)
  

 

I'm sure there are others. In the end, it became clear that the correct answer was to try and model or sim a rotation that used both the free and non-free abilities, and then you can try and compare the results of using something or not.

 

Let's take a look again at Trauma Probe. It's base stats are:

StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.022, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.026, HealingPowerCoefficient=>0.481

 

At level 50, that means it will heal for 155.87-184.21 + 0.481*bonus_healing. If you have 450 Bonus Healing, your average TP non-crit will be 386 (it rounds to nearest integer when the heal is applied). For all 10 charges this is then 3860.

 

Now let's look at those various metrics from before.

• Healing Per Second: 386/3s = 128.67
  
• Healing Per Cast Time: 3860 / 1.5 = 2573.33
  
• Healing Per Resource Cost:
  
  • Live 1.1.5: Infinite!
    
  • PTS 1.2: 1930
    

  [*]Healing Per Cooldown: 3860 / 30s = 128.67 (effective CD of 30s as thats how long it takes to use all 10 charges and be worth recasting)

  [*]Healing Per Resource Recover Time:

  • Live 1.1.5: 2573.33 (GCD used since free)
    
  • PTS 1.2: 3860/3.333 = 1158 (2Ammo/0.6APS = 3.333)
    

 

Now let's compare it to Medical Probe. (Note that I have no idea what these results will be at this moment...not proving a point, just exploring the numbers to see where they take us). At 450 Bonus Healing your average non-crit MP will heal for 2188, cost 3 Ammo, and take 2s to cast.

 

• Healing Per Second: 1094
  
• Healing Per Cast Time: 1094
  
• Healing Per Resource Cost: 729.33
  
• Healing Per Cooldown: 1094
  
• Healing Per Resource Recover Time: 437.6
  

 

So...what do we see?

 

1) TP is far more efficient, even with the PTS changes, than MP.

2) TP has 11.7% of MP's HPS.

 

Those are the two key observations. Now how do we combine them? Obviously TP is worth casting, if you can afford it, because it has a good return on investment. The problem is, with a 2 Ammo cost, you might not be able to afford that investment. As they say, it takes money to make money. On its own the change would be acceptable, but while also increasing AP/MP cost by 33% and reducing SCC refund by 50%, you simply don't have the freedom to spare 2 Ammo for a long term minor return.

 

128 HPS is trivial. At 450 Bonus Healing, your Hammer Shot does 300 HPS, and it is still free.

 

However, let's come back to the main point of this post, which is that you can't always get a straight answer from any particular metric for abilities with different uses. We need to see how that Ammo cost impacts the use of other, higher HPS abilities.

 

I have a request out for an actual test from PTS players, but so far I haven't had any takers and Lileth, the CM who was doing most of my tests for me, has stopped testing after getting too frustrated with BW's lack of communication or action on any of the PTS reports, which is a stance I can certainly understand. I am slowly working on a new sim which will use the PTS changes, but my motivation has similarly waned so it is slow going.

[Serialx]

So...that brings us again to the same question: If commandos/mercs and sages/sorcerers can have almost the same single target HPS and sages/sorcerers have a MUCH MUCH better aoe healing, why take a commando/merc instead of a sage/sorcerer?

[Aritok]

I won't get into the HPS, but I did want to debate this. In my 3/5 stock Rakata set (plus belt, bracers, etc), my Trauma Probe heals 340 to 350 per charge. That occurs in damage taken, and can only happen once every 3 seconds (there is a bug causing it to trigger twice, however). Since that's 10 charges, that equates to 3,400 to 3,500 healing over time (much less than the 5,000) if you allow all 10 charges to run their course. Refreshing early drastically cuts it.

 

Unless there is something severely wrong with my stat itemization, I don't see a Trauma Probe healing for 5k over its lifespan based on its non-crit numbers. With crits, possibly, but that's not in our control.

 

I have:

32,75% Crit chance.

71,47% Crit damage.

561,9 Healing Bonus.

 

The healing bonus make the Trauma Probe heal 426 - 454 (can't check the correct value in game right now).

Adding the 3% from supercharge cells, together with the crit and surge, give a average healing of 559.

So easy 5590 healing with the 10 charges. And this is, on matter if it takes 30 for all charges, quite a lot of healing for a cost of 0 .

 

And with all the healing bonis when healing yourself, this make even over 800 heal on a crit. Even close to 900.