1.2 really should have been 1.0

[jarjarloves]

EQ was the competition then, this is going head to head with some good games.

 

So a completely irrelevant observation.

 

wait EQ wasn't a good game? you're joking right?

[Saravok]

EQ was the competition then, this is going head to head with some good games.

 

So a completely irrelevant observation.

 

It actually is quite relevvant in relation to this post/thread. WoW was competing with some good games when it released. For those of us who played WoW at release, we know it was unpolished and released with known bugs and definitely did not have all the content that was added months later. Like a few people mentioned earlier, there were days that servers crashed and characters got rolled back and lost xp and such multiple times in a day. Times when the servers were just not available or stable enough for play. There are bugs that have been in WoW since day 1 and STILL exist to this day. But despite all that, WoW succeeded and was a very good game for many years and they ended up king og the pile even WITH all the faults it had at release.

 

SW:ToR is far from perfect right now. I do have to say the servers have been more stable than WoW was at release. The gameplay seems decent enough to me. The content is no less buggy than WoW was at release. Ultimately I don't think SW:ToR owes us anything for not having 100% of the content we feel they should have had in the game. All MMO's release with bugs and problems and missing content. They did it back in wow's day and they do it now. This is pretty much normal and nothing is owed to anyone in my opinion.. and this is ONLY my opinion.

 

For me, I am enjoying the game. I still enjoy WoW as well. Just not as much as I used to. But I will continue to play SW:ToR and gripe free as it gives me something else to do during the downtime with my other stuff.

[Scoobings]

I dont see why they should bother. People on these forums will rave and foam at the mouth regardless of what they do or dont do.

 

That's the truth.

[Lord_of_Stone]

If Bioware would have said, "SWTOR is not done, but since everyone is eager to play, we are going to release it early without some major features that will be forthcoming.", then would people have STILL BOUGHT IT?

 

Answer: Yes.

 

They pretty much did say this.

 

I cant tell you how many times I heard the devs say "Well, as we all know, MMO's are never 'finished'..." during production and post production.

[Sparkeh]

Sorry but I don't like the way BW has been selling us on this big patch like it's a content upgrade when it really should have been in the launch of the game. Most of the features / fixes should have been implemented from the get go. I'm beginning to feel like I paid for 3 months of beta testing. Anyone who flames this posting should really take a step back and think for a min.

 

Yes, I've been through a couple other big MMO releases but this one is different. Take CyberTech for an example. Three months it took them to put our rare item in game to make things that we by now already have from doing FPs and OPs. EV is still broken and HMs just now started dropping the right loot (sort of).

 

A developer at the conference was surprised (himself) that there was no "ready check" already in game. The /roll feature took 3 months, quests are still broken, the Legacy system isn't in game yet which was advertized to be ready for release ect ect.

 

So what is BW going to do for all of us that have paid for a game that isn't as advertized? In the "real world" if you purchase something and you find it's not what was advertised you bring the item back. I paid for 3 months right off the bat because I always loved BW games and thought this game was a slam dunk because of BW and the content. Well I'm feeling a bit ripped off at this point. Maybe by the end of my 3 months the content I paid for will be in game... Maybe not who knows at this point.

 

What's BW going to do about this? So far all they've done is offer up a "founders title".

If I bought a car and when I got it home found out the brakes didn't work, the fuel line was not connecting the engine to the tank and the seats were missing I'd be a little PO'ed if all they offered me was a new hood ornament.

 

That's essentially what they've done.

 

I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. People in my guild and on our server all have reflected the same concerns as well as a laundry list of others. So what are you going to do BW?

 

 

While I understand your disappointment so far with what is in the game and what isn't your point makes about as much sense as me saying 5.0 should have been 1.0.

 

There are always going to be features you wanted in at launch that werent but the fact is if you REALLY wanted an MMO that had everything and more than what other MMO's have then it would never release.

 

MMO's are rolling programms that take years to make and even then they are at high risk of being 'behind the times' when they do. What separates a good MMO from a bad MMO is one that can prioritise the right features for early release or not. SWTOR is heading in the right direction at the right time so I see no reason to worry.

 

The 'I want it now, now. NOW!' attitude may have worked when you were 4 years old but frankly in the real world it won't...

[LizardSF]

I wonder who was the person or persons that made the decisions to not put in some of the little things that we are missing like guild banks ect... I bet there were many game playing employees at BW that knew these things would be a source of annoyance for players. So who was it that said "no we don't need that or that or that, we can always put that in later"

 

"We can devote 40 man-hours to guild banks, or 40 man-hours to figuring out why items you mail sometimes get deleted from the database. Hmm. Hmmmm....."

 

Guild banks are a luxury; basic functionality is not. If they had put guild banks in, what would they have had to take out?

 

(Sheesh, does anyone remember when UO didn't have guild functions at all, people just rolled new characters using the guild as part of their character name?)

 

It's sad how little understanding of the basic realities of large projects many people here show; it implies they've never held a job that required more than asking "Do you want fries with that?" It's not just coding; any project with hundreds of workers and thousands of sub-tasks follows the same pattern and has the same issue.

[LizardSF]

Sure... 1.2 COULD have been 1.0. But, then Launch would have been in April in that case.

 

AND, they wouldn't have the benefit of all the things you can only learn from a live game, so, 1.2 would be more like 1.0.1 and we'd be back to where we started.

[Holden_Dissent]

I have never known a game to come released with everything they plan to release it with. Even these so called "staples" of an MMO don't come out when an MMO is released.

 

Even as good as Rift's release was, it was buggy, unbalanced, and was missing most of the "staples" of an MMO.

 

People really expect way too much these days. I cried when I didn't get the presents I wanted for Christmas too, but I was 6.

[Vashforth]

Everyone know that the first 6 months of any MMO is paid Beta.. Whats new?

[Tallyhoe]

I personally would like to have had the legacy options for my alts.. be it.. different races to pick from.. It kind of upsets me that I will not benefit from legacy for alts now.. being that I have my twilek sith assassin.. human operative.. and now a chiss bounty hunter..

 

I would have liked to make a Mirakulok as one of those.. but its a little late for that now =/

 

 

edit: But I am ALLL for the ability of paying for a race change.. just cause I really wanna change my race on my operative to maybe something from legacy

Edited March 16, 2012 by Tallyhoe

[MuNieK]

I also think beta ends with 1.2 and we get the game they wanted to release but didn't have time to do.

 

Not really. I believe 1.2 is just a marketing hype. It will be s*&tload of irrelevant and unimportant patchnotes and the bugged things will remain in game (horrible tagreting, bugged, stupidily smoothed camera, the server-client situatin missmatch etc). The only reason im yet thinking if i should buy just 1 more subscription or not is my friend (with who i usually play online games with teamspeak) is still not as much pissed off with the quality of swtor as i am and he didnt bought BF3 yet so we dont have alternative to play together - or maybe he isnt so pissed off cause he wants to hold on to swtor as the only multiplayer game he have atm.

This will soon change tho and after this month if i would even buy subscription we both gets diablo 3 so common alternative will be there.

 

Question im asking myself atm is: should i take 1 additional month of swtor expensive sub as a gap filler to play with friend before diablo 3 arrives or not? Product alone is definitely not worth giving so much money just to wait for fixes and be the naive lemming as i feel when i pay EA, but playing with friends is fun even if game is pretty bad.

 

Maybe i will make my mind and give you last chance Bioware. You have time till diablo arrives. Make it count, cause i wont be persuaded by marketing list of unimportant patchnotes. If horrible targeting stays when this whole overhyped holy grall (1.2) comes then you wont see me again and thats for sure.

Edited March 16, 2012 by MuNieK

[LizardSF]

I'm no designer or coder

 

So stop right there.

 

Ask yourself this: Do you think the designers, investors, CS reps, etc, LIKE hearing people ***** and whine and moan? Let's assume not. So, then, if they COULD patch stuff in sooner, wouldn't they?

 

They're NOT doing it, so, what conclusion do you draw?

 

a)Because they ARE programmers, and because they have access to information we lack, they know they CAN'T patch it in earlier and have it work properly.

 

b)You're a genius who has figured out a brilliant solution ("Just patch it in now!") that the hundreds of full time professionals at BioWare never thought of. ("Whoa, we can get people to complain less by giving them stuff sooner? Wow, that's an amazing idea! No one's ever thought of that in this history of... of... ever! Why isn't this guy on our BOD?")

 

A or B? Which is more likely?

[Deewe]

Everyone know that the first 6 months of any MMO is paid Beta.. Whats new?

Well Rift and LotRo weren't in a beta state after launch and Wow wasn't that bad either. Even less if you consider Wow raised the bar regarding MMO quality.

 

(Edit) BTW IMHO 1.2 will also bring more issues being:

 

- Making classes less iconic and blurring classes frontiers (BH with choke or lightning)

- Removing some of the separation between factions with same faction vs same faction warzones

- Making some species less iconic and less epic: Sith Jedi, Chiss on Republic.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Deewe

[Holden_Dissent]

I personally would like to have had the legacy options for my alts.. be it.. different races to pick from.. It kind of upsets me that I will not benefit from legacy for alts now.. being that I have my twilek sith assassin.. human operative.. and now a chiss bounty hunter..

 

I would have liked to make a Mirakulok as one of those.. but its a little late for that now =/

 

 

edit: But I am ALLL for the ability of paying for a race change.. just cause I really wanna change my race on my operative to maybe something from legacy

 

Once you're level 8 legacy you can pay to unlock races.

 

Or were you talking about having an instant level 50?

[jarjarloves]

Well Rift and LotRo weren't in a beta state after launch and Wow wasn't that bad either. Even less if you consider Wow raised the bar regarding MMO quality.

 

yeah they where Rift didn't get LFG until Patch 1.2.

[Holden_Dissent]

Well Rift and LotRo weren't in a beta state after launch and Wow wasn't that bad either. Even less if you consider Wow raised the bar regarding MMO quality.

 

I started writing out a long reply but just deleted it.

 

Not worth my time.

 

Bottom line I was going to tell you that your perception and what is real are two totally different things.

[LizardSF]

Well Rift and LotRo weren't in a beta state after launch and Wow wasn't that bad either. .

 

Where can I order those backward-facing rose-colored glasses you've got?

 

Because both LOTR and WoW were plagued with bugs, glitches, broken quests, unbalanced classes, poor design choices, missing features, etc, etc, etc, on launch.[1] (Rift I didn't encounter many bugs in, so I have to give that, but, then again, it barely held my interest for two weeks, once I realized you didn't have to DO anything in the game but run from rift to rift and you'd get better XP and items than any questing. Yawnsville.)

 

[1]Crafting in LOTRO has been completely revised from launch, for example. Classes have been radically redesigned and rebalanced. Many quests which were once group-only were made soloable. The starting areas have been completely redesigned. Etc, etc, etc. Listing everything that's changed in WoW, from gating dungeons to talent trees, would take days.

[Pesh]

Well Rift and LotRo weren't in a beta state after launch and Wow wasn't that bad either. Even less if you consider Wow raised the bar regarding MMO quality.

 

(Edit) BTW IMHO 1.2 will also bring more issues being:

 

- Making classes less iconic and blurring classes frontiers (BH with choke or lightning)

- Removing some of the separation between factions with same faction vs same faction warzones

- Making some species less iconic and less epic: Sith Jedi, Chiss on Republic.

 

I never played LotRo so I will not comment on that.

 

Rifts release was just as buggy as SWTOR, and missing just as much. They did do a great job patching stuff in, but SWTOR release has been on par with Rift.

 

AND WOW? Really? Wow was one of the worst in terms of incomplete MMO releases. It releases with absolutely no endgame at all, and no pvp at all... No to mentions the downtime due to sever crashes.

[Scoobings]

So stop right there.

 

Ask yourself this: Do you think the designers, investors, CS reps, etc, LIKE hearing people ***** and whine and moan? Let's assume not. So, then, if they COULD patch stuff in sooner, wouldn't they?

 

They're NOT doing it, so, what conclusion do you draw?

 

a)Because they ARE programmers, and because they have access to information we lack, they know they CAN'T patch it in earlier and have it work properly.

 

b)You're a genius who has figured out a brilliant solution ("Just patch it in now!") that the hundreds of full time professionals at BioWare never thought of. ("Whoa, we can get people to complain less by giving them stuff sooner? Wow, that's an amazing idea! No one's ever thought of that in this history of... of... ever! Why isn't this guy on our BOD?")

 

A or B? Which is more likely?

 

The problem is that most people are going to assume B because they're going to think they're super smart. That's why the current business model of MMOs doesn't work if you want to become a heavy hitter like WoW. Something has got to change in the way development is done.

 

Since I, too, am not a programmer I couldn't accurately say WHAT that change has to be. Maybe, if they don't already have one, they should have a small team of devs who's responsibility it is to code in features that other MMOs come out with during the proccess of development. Or, maybe that's absurd.

 

The problem is, people are people. This will be the reaction of customers every time a product is released that isn't as polished as the competition.

[Nicki_Minaj]

Totally agree. Some people call it the "Jesus Patch" because it might save the game. The game shouldn't need saving at only three months in. But it will be four months until it is released. We don't even have patch notes as of yet. Features should have been tried, tested and true by launch. This game needed more polish before it was released, but instead it was rushed for the Holiday for the short-term buyers.

 

What kills me is that they broke some things from prior beta to the release. The "hue to chest piece" function had completely worked - matched all colors to the chest so that you didn't look like a clown. But, the example they gave - that boots would look very similar, and you wouldn't be exited to get a new pair of boots if it has similar stats and looked the same. So they scrapped the system, because, well, apparently, similar boots can really depress you (?). As a trooper most of my chest peices are re-skins, I would rather they kept the system and created different pieces, because they are still going to have the same problem.

 

Mortar Volly was on par on in animation speed with Death From Above until the last beta, and it's taken them about a third of a year to balance that. Not to mention some tool tip damages are off, and some skills don't work. Corrosive Microbes flat out doesn't work, so many Lethality players have almost useless two points. I haven't tested it on the Smuggler side of things.

 

I'm exited for the patch and I want to be playing for years to come, but at times I do not like how BW deals with issues.

 

'unify color to chest piece' is gone, and what's next-

http://www.swtor.com/blog/why-unify-color-chest-piece-gone-and-whats-next

 

Broken tool tip:

 

Broken skill:

[jarjarloves]

Here's the thing yes we are going to have these arguments now but say 1 year from now when the game is still doing well and has all these features and more people will forget about this just like they did after WoW was launched.

[LizardSF]

Since I, too, am not a programmer I couldn't accurately say WHAT that change has to be. Maybe, if they don't already have one, they should have a small team of devs who's responsibility it is to code in features that other MMOs come out with during the proccess of development. Or, maybe that's absurd.

 

Well, I wouldn't want to work on the "copy whatever someone else is doing" team.

 

You still run into the same problems. You start off copying the current standard in LFG, for example. Meanwhile, while you're just beginning to code, your competitor is finishing a six month long process of recoding the system to meet a new standard. So they release it, and you start over. Two months later, after all the flaws in their original design are shown, they re-patch it. Yours still isn't done, but now you need to rip out half what you've done to try to play catch-up. Etc.

 

Multiply by dozens of features and dozens of competing games. Now add in any desire you might have to actually do something new and leapfrog the competition.

 

Remember your total development window is 3-5 years, and the longer it is, the more your game has to earn to recoup the costs...AND the further ahead your competitors are getting, AND more, new, competitors are appearing.

 

"Quality of life" features, like guild banks, are much more easily added after launch, when the core gameplay features are locked down, and when you can judge how many of YOUR players want them. Not all games have the same target audience or need the same features.

 

When WoW shipped, it was lauded because it had in-game maps, which was a huge jump over EQ, which had some mapping add-ons late in life but usually just had people asking "Where is blah?". In early WoW, quest givers and receivers were marked by little circles. Quest areas were NOT marked, and you couldn't tell what quest a dot was for by mousing over it on the map. Over time, the maps became more sophisticated, quest areas were marked as well, and you could mouseover creatures to see if you needed to kill them for anything. SWTOR's map is on-par with the standard of around 2007-2008, when WAR first added region markers, BEFORE WoW did, I might note. They're not on par for 2012, but they probably will be before 2013.

 

Every hour you spend on one thing is an hour you're not spending on something else, and no matter HOW good you are at optimizing time usage, you will inevitably pick 'a' over 'b' and have to deal with fans of 'b' saying, "Why did you ship A? We want B!"

 

People that don't understand this are ignorant and should take steps to correct their ignorance; people that can't understand it are morons who should take steps to remove themselves from the gene pool.

[Trolltar]

AND WOW? Really? Wow was one of the worst in terms of incomplete MMO releases. It releases with absolutely no endgame at all, and no pvp at all... No to mentions the downtime due to sever crashes.

 

Anyone that says that never played World War II Online. Which was great, except they forgot to put in the World War.

[Cernow]

AND WOW? Really? Wow was one of the worst in terms of incomplete MMO releases. It releases with absolutely no endgame at all, and no pvp at all... No to mentions the downtime due to sever crashes.

 

This is an all too often used excuse when players complain that post-WoW games don't have the same feature set. But there are features which WoW and other MMOs have introduced which have become MMO standards and de-rigueur. To launch a new MMO without them is sloppy and shortsighted and will lead to inevitable complaints. For example, guild banks, a competent LFG tool, customisable UI, dual spec, a fully featured auction house search tool and so on.

 

The MMO genre is no longer new. It is a mature genre with expectations. So, any new game coming along should already know what is expected and what features need to be incorporated from launch, not lazily / hastily added later band-aid fashion.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Cernow

[Patsilver]

So stop right there.

 

Ask yourself this: Do you think the designers, investors, CS reps, etc, LIKE hearing people ***** and whine and moan? Let's assume not. So, then, if they COULD patch stuff in sooner, wouldn't they?

 

They're NOT doing it, so, what conclusion do you draw?

 

a)Because they ARE programmers, and because they have access to information we lack, they know they CAN'T patch it in earlier and have it work properly.

 

b)You're a genius who has figured out a brilliant solution ("Just patch it in now!") that the hundreds of full time professionals at BioWare never thought of. ("Whoa, we can get people to complain less by giving them stuff sooner? Wow, that's an amazing idea! No one's ever thought of that in this history of... of... ever! Why isn't this guy on our BOD?")

 

A or B? Which is more likely?

 

That's why I was asking if it was possible, not demanding it be done now.

I like this game and want it to succeed.