Time to get rid of Expertise

[Aedilous]

I have spent a lot of time recently on the forums, specifically the PvP forum, and have seen more than enough threads regarding gear changes in 1.2. The PvP crowd complaining about the easymode gear changes and lack of any true PvP in general, the PvE crowd complaining that PvPers only complain because they want to faceroll fresh 50's who aren't geared and they don't want a challenge. However, I don't think that I have seen anyone actual address the issue of a 'level playing field', including Bioware.

 

This is how I see it. I realize this will be a wall of text and may crit some readers for 99,999 damage so I bolded what I felt were the main points. However, feel free to read it all.

 

PvP gear has a stat that increases the amount of damage you do to other players and decreases the damage you take from other players: Expertise (for anyone that might still not know what Expertise does). Each tier of PvP gear increases the amount of Expertise over the lower tiers: Cent, Champ, BM, and now the upcoming War Hero tier.

 

For a while it was semi difficult to obtain the PvP sets but people complained about getting stomped on by people who play more and were able to get better gear at a quicker pace. So Bioware made it easier to get gear but still required that players put work into participating in PvP, be it on Ilum or in Warzones. That wasn't good enough for some people so the complaints continued. Now Bioware is making PvP gear available for purchase from a vendor for credits and Valor isn't required for anything. So a fresh level 50 is now able to get full Cent (perhaps Champ as well, I've seen some people say yes to Champ vendor and some say no) without actually participating in PvP.

 

That does not create a level playing field. It creates a temporary fix to a very short term problem. If the problem is leveling the playing field so that people are required to be skillful to be competitive then why not eliminate the stat that grants one player an advantage? Remove Expertise from all PvP gear, make set bonuses for PvP gear slightly more geared toward PvP combat, and that's that. That way no one has an advantage over other players based solely on having gear with a stat that is designed to give one player an advantage over another player.

 

Expertise, or its equivalent in other MMO's, should be reserved for gear that is stupid hard to get and requires players to go way out of their way to get. That way if someone has it you know they worked their *** off. Either that or just never use a stat that is designed to give long term PvP players an advantage over fresh 50's.

 

Feel free to comment with disagreements or other suggestions but please keep it civil.

 

Edit: This thread is intended to suggest an alternative change to what Bioware has slated for 1.2 release. I do not care to keep new players from getting geared out so that I can face stomp them easier. To me, removing Expertise and tweaking PvP gear will do more to 'level the playing field' than 1.2.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Aedilous

[Demarcc]

PvP should be about player Vs Player .. not gear.

 

PvP gear should be cosmetic ... higher ranks = Shiney new gear.

 

If you want *better* gear for PvPin .. your doing it wrong.

[MPagano]

I would prefer progression in the form of additional talents or abilities or some type of character improvement that still requires the player to have a deep understanding of their class. You could make less effective choices if you didn't fully grasp how these abilities would synergize with your class. They would also require an active role on the player's part in utilizing these advantages. They don't even have to be unique to the class or archetype, but they still require that the player uses them intelligently.

 

As it stands, pvp stats are just ways of normalizing players based on time played rather than skill. It's one thing to earn the ability to provide yourself with an advantage over a player, but it's something else to just make a player inherently stronger without the player having to execute that advantage.

[Numerii]

And then the geared out PvE'ers would show up and roflstomp everyone.

[Groncho]

PvP should be about player Vs Player .. not gear.

 

PvP gear should be cosmetic ... higher ranks = Shiney new gear.

 

If you want *better* gear for PvPin .. your doing it wrong.

 

i like this guy

[Antipathize]

I don't disagree that the stat needs to go, but fixing it would require throwing out many player's time spent collecting it. Even making it easier has pissed a lot of people off, not because I think they want to faceroll people, but because they dedicated hundreds of hours and subscription costs to play a game the way they expected it.

 

A core gameplay change like this would effectively destroy the playerbase like what happened with SWG. Bioware customer service is also lacking, so I doubt they would be able to effectively damage control. Again, I don't disagree, but a lot of people pvp solely, and have an expectation based on how things currently run.

[Szarala]

As long as people can wear any gear at all in pvp, expertise is necessary.

The only way your argument holds merit is if warzones automatically stripped everyone naked upon entering.

[Humancentipad]

For one thing, your story of PvP gear is missing a critical piece from when the game 1st came out.

 

The drop rate on gear for champ/bm chests was a lot higher, so anyone who raced to 50, then PvP'ed their *** off could get into a full set of BM gear rather quickly once they had rank 60. Then, at some point in the future they nerfed the drop rate to .01 or worse. Then they put this latest patch out and got away from ilum, increased valor per match, and made it easier to obtain gear (the drop rate still sucks), setting up for rated WZ's.

 

So on to the meat & potatoes. Why do you want expertise gone, and what would you replace it with?

 

 

Maybe implementing a base amount of expertise when you hit 50, and leaving where the current gear caps out on expertise the same, but reducing the % increase from fresh 50 to all PvP gear. But then what about people wearing a full set of PvE gear in PvP?

 

There has to be a clear benefit and incentive to wear PvP gear to PvP, and PvE gear to PvE. Granted, you can do both now, and that's a mixed blessing.

[Slackfumasta]

And then the geared out PvE'ers would show up and roflstomp everyone.

 

That's exactly it. WoW figure out years ago that raiding gear allowed raiders to instantly become battleground gods, and resilience was added to fix that. This way, people who PvP are not put at an unfair disadvantage by people who faceroll raid content and never bothered to PvP before.

 

Expertise is staying.

[Ozzone]

And then the geared out PvE'ers would show up and roflstomp everyone.

 

Then BW would be forced to reintroduce a PvP stat/ability to counter it OR introduce higher stat PvP gear OR get slammed for forcing PvP'ers to raid.

[Antipathize]

As long as people can wear any gear at all in pvp, expertise is necessary.

The only way your argument holds merit is if warzones automatically stripped everyone naked upon entering.

 

This is closer to the truth than you think. I have suggested in another thread that a uniform based on class is granted upon entering a warzone, granting the base stats everyone needs and equally. The rewards for pvp would be shiny, and probably customizing the uniform cosmetically.

[Ozzone]

This way, people who only PvP are not put at an unfair disadvantage by people who faceroll raid content.

 

Corrected it for you because there's a lot of players that do both.

 

Expertise is staying.

 

Or strictly PvP'ers will leave en masse. That is one thing BW cannot afford to happen.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Ozzone

[MPagano]

And then the geared out PvE'ers would show up and roflstomp everyone.

 

Obviously, it would not be as straightforward as letting anyone queue with their stats. It would make no sense to let a player who is geared to fight bosses that hit fo 10k and have 2million hp to fight players.

 

You would use the bolster system to normalize stats and let players compete based on their skill and knowledge of the game mechanics and other class interactions. This is what GW2 is attempting to pull off.

 

They've also changed the entire MMO paradigm to be more conducive to PvP balance, though. There are no healers or player-targeted spells in the game. It has potential. But a game that's already designed with the conventional trinity and PvE progression at the forefront of their priorities wouldn't be able to make such sweeping overhauls nor should it.

[Szarala]

A uniform isn't a bad idea per se, but it would need to be more flexible than that. Not everyone likes to play their character/class in the same way, and not every spec benefits as much from the same stats within the same class.

 

If you went the uniform route, you'd still have to let players customize its stats; like say each uniform has the same pool (like 200 points or something) and then the player is ability to allocate stats from that pool as they see fit (within set margins).

[RoyFokker]

And then the geared out PvE'ers would show up and roflstomp everyone.

 

Except for they don't know **** all about pvping. I've seen PVErs in action, their gear won't save them.

[Synacus]

I'm for this I hate having two sets or armor make the pvp gear as good as pve gear and so on.

 

Make rare items tho for both like mounts differnt "looking" gear rare sabers and so on.

[Demarcc]

All PvP gear should have the same stats and same Exp rating is my point. It should just look cosmetically different at each tier.

 

Sure this would mean *adjusting* PvP gear each time a new tier of raiding gear was introduced and thats fine. They do need to do the opposite tho and make PvP gear less desirable for raiding in. If you PvP you want PvP gear, If you raid you want PvE gear .. if you do both .. get both sets of gear. Doing one activity should not be a free ride to the other. (IMO)

 

The fact that PvP gear *improves* as you rank up is counter productive to people who actually enjoy real PvP .. that is player vs player.

 

Player Vs player Vs gear is not the same.

 

Of course theres alot of class balancing issues as well so pretty much PvP in this game (at its current stat) is a joke. Hoping they get thier act together .. but I have a Tera beta running just incase /wink.

[Slackfumasta]

Except for they don't know **** all about pvping. I've seen PVErs in action, their gear won't save them.

 

Back in WoW, their gear did save them, it was a big enough advantage that they could roflstomp people

 

Course, the downside in WoW was that to get into PvP and actually do something took a lot of time, where in SWTOR, you can have a full cent set with some champion pieces less than a week after hitting 50, as I just did on my sage. I did get luck though, getting chest and weapon champion tokens from bags, but I've also bought two pieces already.

[Antipathize]

A uniform isn't a bad idea per se, but it would need to be more flexible than that. Not everyone likes to play their character/class in the same way, and not every spec benefits as much from the same stats within the same class.

 

If you went the uniform route, you'd still have to let players customize its stats; like say each uniform has the same pool (like 200 points or something) and then the player is ability to allocate stats from that pool as they see fit (within set margins).

 

I was just talking about the simplistic route. Obviously a tank spec isn't going to want a high energy/force pool and low health pool, so I agree with this.

 

Minor tweaking within the same realm. As it is, all bm/champs are basically wearing the same looking gear anyway, so it wouldn't be that drastic of a change.

[Kiyoma]

I would prefer progression in the form of additional talents or abilities or some type of character improvement that still requires the player to have a deep understanding of their class. You could make less effective choices if you didn't fully grasp how these abilities would synergize with your class. They would also require an active role on the player's part in utilizing these advantages. They don't even have to be unique to the class or archetype, but they still require that the player uses them intelligently.

 

As it stands, pvp stats are just ways of normalizing players based on time played rather than skill. It's one thing to earn the ability to provide yourself with an advantage over a player, but it's something else to just make a player inherently stronger without the player having to execute that advantage.

 

the only thing I wanted to comment on was that players in an MMO should be aware that the earlier you want to obtain something the more work and time you will ultimately have to put in. This is should of been very evident when battlemaster was end game pvp gear and people were in full BM within 2 months of launch - there had to be something more coming. If you want a successful MMO you can't let the gear curve keep expanding, it will ultimately fail and not encourage new players.

[sensiblepoast]

PvP should be about player Vs Player .. not gear.

 

PvP gear should be cosmetic ... higher ranks = Shiney new gear.

 

If you want *better* gear for PvPin .. your doing it wrong.

 

PvE sholud be player vs Environment .. not gear

 

PVE gear should be cosmetic ... higher ranks = Shiney new gear

 

If you want *better* gear for PvEin .. your doing it wrong.

 

Guild wars is that way ---->

Edited March 15, 2012 by sensiblepoast

[Cobrarocks]

y do people get so bent out of shape about expertise?

 

As a player who pretty much exclusively does warzones and crafting I like "gear progression" to increase my stats and have something to work for.

 

Please spare me the if you were a real pvper you would just want to pvp.....

 

I do pvp just to pvp but I like gearing my character, I would play gw or an fps if I wanted everyone to have same gear stats and such....

 

I duno different strokes for differnt folks

 

Honestly I think CC and the Resolve Bar need to be addressed before anything in pvp on this game...

[Demarcc]

PvE sholud be player vs Environment .. not gear

 

PVE gear should be cosmetic ... higher ranks = Shiney new gear

 

If you want *better* gear for PvEin .. your doing it wrong.

 

Guild wars is that way ---->

 

Is that supposed to be a counter argument?

 

Its not, i'd be quite happy with shiney gear rather than stat upgrades. Its takes away the grind and allows you to get new raiders into the loop right away without having to gear them up. Gear grinds are horrible.

 

Just not sure why you feel this is a counter to my point?

[Numerii]

Back in WoW, their gear did save them, it was a big enough advantage that they could roflstomp people

 

 

I remember back in vanilla WoW we had this terribad rogue who was in the dominant Alliance raiding guild. She would be unstealthed running to me, stealth up, get pulled out of stealth by my Demo Roar...and still proceed to faceroll me using nothing more than Sinister Strike and 5 point Eviscerates. Granted I was in the blue PvP gear, but I didn't even have the time to grind out rank 11 for my mount, let alone the Warlord gear.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Numerii

[Aedilous]

y do people get so bent out of shape about expertise?

 

As a player who pretty much exclusively does warzones and crafting I like "gear progression" to increase my stats and have something to work for.

 

Please spare me the if you were a real pvper you would just want to pvp.....

 

I do pvp just to pvp but I like gearing my character, I would play gw or an fps if I wanted everyone to have same gear stats and such....

 

I duno different strokes for differnt folks

 

Honestly I think CC and the Resolve Bar need to be addressed before anything in pvp on this game...

 

I suppose I should have noted initially, and have now gone back to edit my original post, that I don't feel like the way the gear system works currently has a big problem. The gear progression isn't difficult to get in any way, you just need to participate. My post was to suggest an option other than allowing fresh 50's to purchase PvP gear without having to ever actually have done PvP. That Bioware is allowing it to happen makes no sense to me. If you want PvP gear then participate in PvP. If you don't care about PvP then stop complaining about the gear progression. Also, I'm not one of those people that feels like I just want to roflstomp a new player because I have gear and they don't. To be honest, I haven't played ToR in about a week and a half because I've been unhappy with its current direction.